Why is Pakistan not purchasing the Rafale?

[hj786]

At the risk of being accused of advocating buying American because I am an American, I do not think that buying the Rafale would be a wise decision. Not because the Rafale is a bad design but because Pakistan has to consider the familiarity factor, meaning that how long has Pakistan been flying the F-16? How comfortable are Pakistani pilots with the F-16? Every new aircraft design will have different flight characteristics and exhibit new behaviors that will require pilots to adjust. Will the new aircraft offer new capabilities and improve upon current ones to justify the changes. What about maintenance? Can the ground crews adapt to the new aircrafts in terms of ease of maintenance? These are not trivial matters and once the money spent, Pakistan cannot ask for refunds.

So in your opinion, after considering Rafale's reduced RCS, canard-delta layout, Spectra EW suite, phased array radar and the MBDA Meteor, PAF is better off with buying more F-16?

even Chinese J10 crashed

Any proof of that?

 

[paritosh]

Not Iraqi MIG-25s but a Soviet MIG-25...

yeah...right.

Belenko's defection and the examination of the MIG-25 gave US valuable insights on how Soviet designers operate under very resource and technological limiting conditions. I may take gratuitous jabs at Soviet/Russian aircrafts but the truth cannot be dismissed -- that based upon how much the Soviets are behind the West in terms of technology, calling Soviet-Russian aircrafts, even in jest, as 'junk', the insults are not that far from fact.

well...i do rememeber the IAF showing-off the 'uninterceptable' mig-25 once...by sending one into the pakistani territory once...does anyone know about it?
from what i know it was a big show-off move with the mig-25 returning to base safely after sending the Pak radars in a frenzy...it aboviously is a piece of junk though...not useful as an interceptor...not useful as recon plane

 

[Fennecus]

So in your opinion, after considering Rafale's reduced RCS, canard-delta layout, Spectra EW suite, phased array radar and the MBDA Meteor, PAF is better off with buying more F-16?


Any proof of that?

The First Crash Landing of China J-10 Fighter|China-Defense-Mashup

The pilot managed to force land the bird, and managed to salvage the plane. An F-22 Raptor crashed just a few weeks later.

 

[MastanKhan]

yeah...right.

well...i do rememeber the IAF showing-off the 'uninterceptable' mig-25 once...by sending one into the pakistani territory once...does anyone know about it?
from what i know it was a big show-off move with the mig-25 returning to base safely after sending the Pak radars in a frenzy...it aboviously is a piece of junk though...not useful as an interceptor...not useful as recon plane

Hi,

It served the perfect job by flying over pakistan---pak didnot have missile to reach the ceiling possibly of 70000 +++ feet---and neither did it have interceptors to make the chase---.

So---a perfect plane for this ideal situation---but when it came down to confronting fighter aircraft---there was not much it could offer---in the 70's egypt israel war---an israeli phantom pilot saw a mig 25 accelerate faster than the missile he fired at it and disappear. Reportedly---both the engines were gone.

 

[gambit]

So in your opinion, after considering Rafale's reduced RCS, canard-delta layout, Spectra EW suite, phased array radar and the MBDA Meteor, PAF is better off with buying more F-16?

Look at it this way...What is the SR-71's greatest attribute: Speed. Because of that the aircraft's role is limited to recon and R/D missions. The US needed the SR-71 because the US have global interests. Does Pakistan have a need for such highly specialized systems? The SR-71 is an extreme example but it illustrate the point about having multi-role aircrafts. These aircrafts offer great flexibility as situations demands and even more important if the need is mainly for territorial defense.

But every time an aircraft is either purposely designed to be multifaceted or discovered to be so capable, there is going to be compromises in ALL aspects of aircraft performance. Put on missiles and bombs on the SR-71 and there is no way that aircraft is going to cruise at Mach 3+. Likewise, remove missiles and bombs from the F-4, install a few cameras and there is an RF-4 that can, in critical situations, dash at a higher speed than its cousins. The core differences between the RF-4 and its fighter-bomber cousin will be practically nil. For territorial defense, multi-role aircrafts is far more of a need than highly specialized systems like the SR-71 or even the F-14, which is mainly an interceptor.

That said...since we know that multi-role aircrafts will have compromises in aircraft capabilities, the important question is does the Rafale, which is a multi-role platform, offer a higher level of performances than the tried-and-true F-16? Remember, it has to be superior to the F-16 in ALL areas and by at least %10, in my opinion, to realize what businesses call Return-On-Investment (ROI). If Pakistan feel that the Rafale does offer such a superior platform, then by all means spend the money and the changeover.

 

[PAFAce]

That said...since we know that multi-role aircrafts will have compromises in aircraft capabilities, the important question is does the Rafale, which is a multi-role platform, offer a higher level of performances than the tried-and-true F-16? Remember, it has to be superior to the F-16 in ALL areas and by at least %10, in my opinion, to realize what businesses call Return-On-Investment (ROI). If Pakistan feel that the Rafale does offer such a superior platform, then by all means spend the money and the changeover.

Well you've nailed it there. There is no such thing as the perfect aircraft, it's what's best for your operational needs. hj786 obviously feels that as a multi-role platform, the Rafale offers much better ROI to the PAF than F-16s. It's tough to argue against the fact that a few Rafales would make 200-odd Su-30MKIs seem a lot less intimidating.

There are a millions reasons, though, why the PAF would not want to or could not afford to acquire any new expensive high-tech American/European platforms in small or large numbers anytime soon, and they've all been discussed previously. Frankly, I didn't think a thread titled "Why is Pakistan not purchasing the Rafale?" would make it this far. I assumed that somebody would just list all the possible issues with the idea and kill the thread.

 

[Kamakazi 69]

Because its too damn expensive and Pakistan needs a lot good 4th gen. airplanes like the F-16 to replace its Mirage 3s more than 10 or 20 freaksihly expensive planes like the Rafale, although we did ask for the Gripen in the 90's because it was designed to land on motorways and is an incredibly high tech piece of kit.

B.T.W as a side question, do the F-7s we have suffer from the poor cockpit visibility of the Mig-21s?
I would ask more but the smileys are annoying me at this point.

 

[Cockpuncher]

The First Crash Landing of China J-10 Fighter|China-Defense-Mashup

The pilot managed to force land the bird, and managed to salvage the plane. An F-22 Raptor crashed just a few weeks later.

.....and the first su30mki crashed a few weeks after that.

 

[hj786]

Well you've nailed it there. There is no such thing as the perfect aircraft, it's what's best for your operational needs. hj786 obviously feels that as a multi-role platform, the Rafale offers much better ROI to the PAF than F-16s. It's tough to argue against the fact that a few Rafales would make 200-odd Su-30MKIs seem a lot less intimidating.

There are a millions reasons, though, why the PAF would not want to or could not afford to acquire any new expensive high-tech American/European platforms in small or large numbers anytime soon, and they've all been discussed previously. Frankly, I didn't think a thread titled "Why is Pakistan not purchasing the Rafale?" would make it this far. I assumed that somebody would just list all the possible issues with the idea and kill the thread.

I think you guys misunderstood me. I believe Rafale would have offered better ROI had it not been so expensive and the PAF not already so familiar with F-16.
I just wanted to know what Gambit thought of Rafale's capabilities compared to the latest F-16; a technical comparison. Should have mentioned that in my post, my bad.

 

[maverick2009]

My 2 cents worth...

Both Rafale & Typhoon are far superior to F16 in design. They incorporate far more in composites,, curved lines for reduced RCS great cockpit layout and ease of use.

Where the F16 wins particularly the F16/60 is its Radar ie APG81 and range of weapons. With it the proven combat record.

The engines on both Rafale & Typhoon are 1990s tech versis 1970s tech on F16s and the new euro jets can super cruise.

Overall the Rafael & Typhoon will catch up the F16/F18 etc with their new AESA radars. The Euro jets will still be frontline high performance fighters in 2030.

Where as the F16/60 F15S F18/EF are last of the line. Regardless of what the Yanks are telling everyone the USA future upgrades will be to JSF & F22...

so does PAF spend say $3 billion to get 50 more F16/60 because they know the plane and its record. But may become obselete by 2025

OR

Do they go and spend $5 billion to buy state of the art Euro TYPHOON/RAFALE because they will remain frontline and have massive future improvements on board til at least 2040

 

[Sargodhian_Eagle]

Duoble post

 

[Sargodhian_Eagle]

My 2 cents worth...

Both Rafale & Typhoon are far superior to F16 in design. They incorporate far more in composites,, curved lines for reduced RCS great cockpit layout and ease of use.

Where the F16 wins particularly the F16/60 is its Radar ie APG81 and range of weapons. With it the proven combat record.

The engines on both Rafale & Typhoon are 1990s tech versis 1970s tech on F16s and the new euro jets can super cruise.

Overall the Rafael & Typhoon will catch up the F16/F18 etc with their new AESA radars. The Euro jets will still be frontline high performance fighters in 2030.

Where as the F16/60 F15S F18/EF are last of the line. Regardless of what the Yanks are telling everyone the USA future upgrades will be to JSF & F22...

so does PAF spend say $3 billion to get 50 more F16/60 because they know the plane and its record. But may become obselete by 2025

OR

Do they go and spend $5 billion to buy state of the art Euro TYPHOON/RAFALE because they will remain frontline and have massive future improvements on board til at least 2040

Okzzzzzzzz
If so then why Rafale is unable to get order while 600 F-16s r on order to Lockheed.
I dnt think that euro jets will able to get massive orders like USA jets. Indian MRCA will divert the global jets order stream then it will be decided that which jet will lead in future.

 

[Munir]

Getting the latest means taking some risks..


Keymags:
Problems with latest delivery of four Eurofighters
Computer screens sometimes stop working mid-flight
Planes are not grounded, but only flown by day and by experienced old hands or instructors who can bring them back without (instrument) screens
GAF hopes to have issues rectified with a software update, prolonged downtime might result
Price per plane quoted is €85m

The price quote should be UPC.

 

[maverick2009]

Munir.

What people fail to realise on this forum regardless of how new or expensive a new combat plane is there will always be glitches.

Whether they may blades on engines of SU30MKI fighters or Software problems on Typhoon. Heck even F22 has had issues.

Does not mean they are not powerful combat planes...

F16s F18 have been around for over 25 years. The USA and the global operators have ironed out there regular faults.

I can 100% Gurantee that wen JF17 or in deed LCA tejas/ J10 enter service there will be serious intial hick ups or teething problems.

They will all be resolved as systems/operations become mature.

Stil i ask which should PAF buy.

$3 billion x 50 F16 BLOCK 60 or $5 billion x 50 Rafale./Typhoon

 

[Munir]

I would not go for US planes. It is difficult to decide for anything European. India did the right by going for non western plane with some western equipment. That way they can not control your assets. Cause if you let them they will. To answer it precisely, go for EF2000 suit but French ECM, radar and weapons. Get either J10B-II or J11 and join Jxx. Upgrade JF17 to a better level and only a2a. Get internal bay for Jxx and J10B-II...