Which Submarines should the RSNF go after?

[al-Hasani]

The average depth of the Arabian Gulf is 50 m (160 ft) and the maximum depth is 90 m (300 ft). In other words it is very shallow.

The Red Sea on the other hand has a average depth of 490 m (1,610 ft) and a maximum depth of 2.211 m (7,254 ft)

Eh, the Red Sea is not shallow at all compared to the Gulf by any means or shallow in general. Nor that narrow again for that matter.

Besides there are no "enemy states" that border our beautiful Red Sea coastline. Well aside from Israel. The Gulf is another matter all together.

Still the best possible equipment should always be in our hands given the neighborhood.

 

[kalu_miah]

RSNF should go for both the Scorpene sub and the latest P-8A Poseidon. I think Pakistan Navy would be very glad to get some training time on Poseidon.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Even though the Red Sea is topographically better than the Gulf, I'm not quite sure that It will accommodate a T-214 or a Scorpion

Speaking of Iran, I don't think Iran is willing to take a risk such as going to war with any of its neighbors.

Red sea is too narrow and shallow (comparatively) and your submarine would be easily detected.


The only country that could ever fight a war with you unless you have declared war over them is Iran.Management of Mecca and medina and assorted $hit that would come someone's way means that occupying Saudi is too much of a headache for any country.


Only Iran and if you want to count, Iraq has a passable justification for doing so; namely " liberating holy cities from American stooges".

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

RSNF should go for both the Scorpene sub and the latest P-8A Poseidon. I think Pakistan Navy would be very glad to get some training time on Poseidon.

I don't think we need the P-8A Poseidon's but I would like to see this operated by the RSAF.

 

[kalu_miah]

I don't think we need the P-8A Poseidon's but I would like to see this operated by the RSAF.

c-17 is a huge transport plane. But its not a submarine hunter like Poseidon.

Saudi Arabia has two sea access, one is in Red sea, average depth about 1600 ft, and the other is the Arabian Gulf, average depth around 160 ft, with Hormuz strait depth 82-131 ft:
https://www.strausscenter.org/hormuz/submarines.html

The depth of Strait of Hormuz (depth of 82 feet to 131 feet) is deep enough for ships, but is shallow for the submarines. The shallow waters and strong currents of the Strait both hamper and aid submarines — the water provides noisy background conditions that help cover up the sound of a submarine, but the shallow waters make the submarine more likely to be visually identified from the air or surface of the water. The confined waters and strong currents of the Gulf make the Strait of Hormuz an extremely hazardous place for even experienced submariners. [xvii]

The Kilos that Iran owns need to be modernized in order to keep their aging military equipment from becoming irrelevant. Modernizing the Iranian kilos comes with a high price tag of $80-90 million per submarine.[xviii] The Kilos' immediate threat is their ability to lay mines. Submerged Kilos offer the capability to covertly[xix] deploy 24 to 36 mines per sortie.[xx] However, Iran's indigenously produced (moored or floating) mines[xxi] are not deployable by submarine.[xxii]

In the end, the two or three Iranian Kilo submarines would have a very short period of survivability when confronted by the United States' anti-submarine warfare forces.[xxiii]

I think in Red Sea area there is not much of a threat from Egypt, Sudan or Eritrea. The main threat is obviously in Arabian Gulf while Hormuz Strait is the main choke point. The above article talks about Iran's 3 kilo class subs, but it does not talk about Ghadir class mini or midget subs:
Ghadir-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

21 of these have been deployed in the gulf from 2007-2012. The US bases in the gulf can easily handle this area using Poseidons. Pakistan Navy also has unknown number of Midget subs:
MIDGET Submarines
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/9204-pak-minisub-mg110-cosmos-2.html

If RSNF wants to supplement the security arrangement in the Gulf, this can be done with a nice new high tech shallow water concept submarine by French DCNS, SMX-26:
DCNS unveils a new submarine concept at Euronaval 2012: The SMX-26

http://www.opex360.com/2012/10/12/l...alement-concu-pour-les-operations-littorales/

As in 2010 with the SMX-25 , DCNS will present at the next Euronaval (October 22-26) a new concept of underwater entitled SMX-26 "Cayman".

Thus, engineers have devised a shipbuilder for submersible to conduct surveillance missions and actions of long distance discretion, all in shallow waters, making it ideal for the preparation of amphibious operations or littoral combat.

For this, the SMX-26 "Cayman" has a flattened shape - it is 7.9 m high - to allow it to grow to 12 meters deep. Moreover, the navigation system works with sensors that provide a 3D rendition of its environment. In addition, it is equipped with 4 electric azimuth thrusters both adjustable and retractable, which gives it excellent maneuverability.

One of the peculiarities of the SMX-26 is its ability to remain motionless in a given sector and become, somehow, a center for collecting information or a base for special operations. Through a system of retractable wheels, it is able to "drop" on any background.

In addition, this submarine is also designed to operate as close to the surface. For this, it is especially armed with a 20mm cannon in the mast, a self-defense against air threats, two heavy torpedoes and eight other light to increased load capacity as well as surface-to-air missiles .

As for its dimensions, subersible measuring 39.5 meters long and 15.5 meters wide. Its maximum speed is 10 knots dive and patrol time is one month.

According to DCNS, the "operational capacity" of the SMX-26 "are those of a SSK (note, submarine classic) Modern: Mixed transit, ocean deployment of large radius of action and anti-surface and anti-submarine navy. "

Euronaval Press Tour 2012 - SMX 26 | DEFENCE24

DCNS - SMX-26 Littoral Seabed Landing Submarine Combat Simulation [1080p] - YouTube

There is a nice cheaper alternative from Korea for the bigger Scorpene (for Red Sea only), type 209 design, but produced in Korea:
Chang Bogo-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indonesian Navy is buying 3 of these

Iran's new 500 ton sub:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/iranian-defence/244174-iran-unveil-new-500-ton-submarine-august.html

Korean new 500 ton sub:
http://asw.newpacificinstitute.org/?p=9083

It is noteworthy that, KSS-500A is equipped with generators without all the power provided by two lithium batteries in continuous force of up to 3 weeks underwater, it is rarely necessary ventilation allegedly, KSS-500A with 4 masts, respectively, for optical, radar, satellite communications, and electronic security systems, it is also capable of firing a small UAV(Finance News http://www.f-paper.com/). designed to prepare the boat 10, the other capable of carrying 14 special operations personnel. standard weapon for the two heavy torpedoes and four light torpedoes.

I believe this will be ok for shallow water as Iran is coming up with this size. But SMX-26 is the best for shallow water of Gulf. I found an excellent article on Iranian navy strategy using Kilo and midget subs, I will post it in full next.

 

[kalu_miah]

Israeli assessment of Iran's sub fleet:
How dangerous is Iran's submarine fleet? Israel News | Haaretz

Other threat assessment from Iran's sub fleet:
Iran Submarine Capabilities | Articles | NTI Analysis | NTI
Fact Sheet: Iran's Submarine Force | Institute for the Study of War
Submarines: The Mysterious Iranian Threat

After going through above articles, I would recommend starting with the following fleet:

Gulf port submarine base:
- order One SMX-26 (France)
- Borrow/lease One MG 110 midget from Pakistan (they have many)
- order One KSS 500A (South Korea)

For blue water use from Red sea port submarine base:
- borrow/lease one Chang Bogo (redesigned type 209, South Korea) or
- order one Scorpene (DCNS, made in France or Pakistan)

After trying these, next step should be decided from real life results and experience with these subs.

 

[Nishan_101]

Its amazing to see that Saudi Arabia nor any other Arab country like UAE, Oman, Yemen and Jordan didn't procure any submarines in the past. I think its the right time for them to do JV on submarines with Germany or France.....

 

[Nishan_101]

I support such a JV with Germany that will involve Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Jordan to have submarines:
3000 Tons SSK
1500 Tons SSK
700 Tons Coastal SSK
110-160 Tons Special Group Submarines(carried by Tanker ships)
Rescue Submarines

Similarly UAE, Oman, Libya, Algeria, Egypt, Malaysia and Indonesia should go for a JV with France on:
3000 Tons SSK
1500 Tons SSK
700 Tons Coastal SSK
110-160 Tons Special Group Submarines(carried by Tanker ships)
Rescue Submarines

Submarines are the integral part of any Navy and many experts are suggesting since 1 or 2 decades that many Navies around the world are planning just to have submarines rather than Destroyers, Frigates, Corvettes and FAC with support vessels.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

I don't think that Yemen will join us, maybe Jordan, but KSA and Pakistan can work together like always.

I support such a JV with Germany that will involve Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Jordan to have submarines:
3000 Tons SSK
1500 Tons SSK
700 Tons Coastal SSK
110-160 Tons Special Group Submarines(carried by Tanker ships)
Rescue Submarines

Similarly UAE, Oman, Libya, Algeria, Egypt, Malaysia and Indonesia should go for a JV with France on:
3000 Tons SSK
1500 Tons SSK
700 Tons Coastal SSK
110-160 Tons Special Group Submarines(carried by Tanker ships)
Rescue Submarines

Submarines are the integral part of any Navy and many experts are suggesting since 1 or 2 decades that many Navies around the world are planning just to have submarines rather than Destroyers, Frigates, Corvettes and FAC with support vessels.

 

[al-Hasani]

I don't think that Yemen will join us, maybe Jordan, but KSA and Pakistan can work together like always.

Why not bro? Yemen's current government is a friendly state. Lot's of potential and they have an access to the Arabian Sea/Indian Ocean/Red Sea and a natural harbor in Aden - one of the biggest natural harbors in the world. A lot more cooperation should happen. The Houthi threat, although small after their defeat is still there besides Al-Qaeda on the Arabian Peninsula who are threatening the security of not only Yemen but our and the wider region.

It only makes sense since Yemen is not going anywhere (will always be a neighbor) and it's a question of time before they join the GCC the day it expands. But some of the GCC states (smaller ones) are probably not fond of paying a lot of money to states such as Yemen and Jordan (should they join) who don't have the same riches in order to get them on the GCC level just as the strongest EU member states are helping the weaker ones to reach their level or at least a similar one. That might be the biggest hurdle. Although Qatar are trying to seek a bigger influence in Yemen at the expense of us. Turkey also.

Other than that then I agree with Nishan_101.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Sure, if Yemen is willing to join then be it.

We are bailing no body out though.

Why not bro? Yemen's current government is a friendly state. Lot's of potential and they have an access to the Arabian Sea/Indian Ocean/Red Sea and a natural harbor in Aden - one of the biggest natural harbors in the world. A lot more cooperation should happen. The Houthi threat, although small after their defeat is still there besides Al-Qaeda on the Arabian Peninsula who are threatening the security of not only Yemen but our and the wider region.

It only makes since since Yemen is not going anywhere (will always be a neighbor) and it's a question of time before they join the GCC the day it expands. But some of the GCC states (smaller ones) are probably not fond of paying a lot of money to states such as Yemen and Jordan (should they join) who don't have the same riches in order to get them on the GCC level just as the strongest EU member states are helping the weaker ones to reach their level or at least a similar one. That might be the biggest hurdle. Although Qatar are trying to seek a bigger influence in Yemen at the expense of us. Turkey also.

Other than that then I agree with Nishan_101.

 

[kalu_miah]

After I looked at the history and current status of South Korea - India relations, specially in the defense sector (India bought 8 frigates from Korea), I would withdraw my recommendation for Korean subs. In fact I would recommend Indonesia to reconsider their sub purchase from Korea and all other defense cooperation with S. Korea, though it is off topic in this thread.

Both Turkey and Pakistan has experience in building submarines, so it would be best to have German and French tech for subs manufactured in one of these two countries, since buying Chinese subs may not be an available option for KSA at this point in time.

Essentially South Korea is following the same path as Japan, allying with India, at the expense of rest of Asia and their effort should not be supported in my opinion. They can keep their superior technology for India, while Muslim nations either get their tech either from China or from EU/USA through trusted Muslim nations (mainly Turkey and to some extent Pakistan and Indonesia) who have different level of relationship with the West.

 

[Luftwaffe]

I don't think we need the P-8A Poseidon'

If the C-130J SEA HERCULES MPA is ever developed with technologies from P-8 introduced this would be a much better over-all choice.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

If the C-130J SEA HERCULES MPA is ever developed with technologies from P-8 introduced this would be a much better over-all choice.

What about subs? Any suggestions? What kind of sub should the Saudis go for?

 

[Luftwaffe]

What about subs? Any suggestions? What kind of sub should the Saudis go for?

Hard to Answer it depends on the requirement of Royal Saudi Navy but my opinion would be Saudi Arabia should push for a couple of nuclear powered submarines either French or German and 2-3 high quality diesel submarines either U214 or highly modernized scorpene-class submarines. I believe Saudi Arabia does have funds for 5 submarines in both classes nuclear and diesel electric totalling around $3.8B that's sufficient. Personally i am highly skeptical if Germans would allow any deal under pressure from Israel for any conventional or non conventional submarines. Or the idea perhaps wild but Chinese are very reliable partners pay them good and Join them they are working day and night on developing capable submarines' Saudi Arabia must develop best defence relations with China as well it is high time if you want to prove you point to the West.