Whatever

[I.R.A]

One request .......... your font size is making me think that I may have started losing 6/6 blessing.

The idea about a promised figure coming in the future to revive the original spirit of a Religion is not something unique to Zoroastrianism. The original concept of the Messiah is from the Hebrew Bible. It is the prophecy that someone from the progeny of King David will appear to restore the ancient glory of Israel. Similarly, the concept of Mahdi is that someone from the progeny of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) will rise up to restore the Caliphate and the lost glory of Islam, as well as establish justice in the land. Therefore, I believe that our Prophet (peace be upon him) himself predicted that one of his descendants will appear in the future before the end of the world and lead the Muslim Umma back to the right path.

And we know how many of those scriptures were altered. For us Muslims only unaltered text preserved in its pure form is Quran. And most of these alien ideas that have resemblance with Judaism, Christianity or Zoroastrian beliefs aren't mentioned in Quran, these have been mentioned in books of hear say.

Even the way you say your dua by raising your hands resembles the Zoroastrian practice.

Simple Arabic grammar. Sura 43: 61 says that "He" (singular pronoun) is a Sign of the Hour. If the pronoun doesn't refer to the Messiah then who is it referring to?

The verse may very well be referring to Jesus but the addressee may not be the Ummat of Muhammad but Jesus?

Many Messengers never had any army or fought any battles. This Sura speaks about the "manifestation" of Islam over other religions. It is not necessary that this "manifestation" is brought about purely through means of armed conquest.

Okay then tell me why would your Mahdi kill 1 billion pagans? Why do you believe that towards the end it would be either Islam or sword? Aren't you contradicting your own views?

The two groups spoken of in Sura 61: 14 were the Israelites who believed in the Messiah and those who rejected him. It says that those who believed triumphed over the disbelieving faction. Now historically, this never occurred by force of arms, as I already mentioned that the 12 disciples of the Messiah never had an army or fought any battles. It was a spiritual triumph, evidenced by the fact that the belief in the Messiah became widespread and dominant, while those who rejected him became subdued and insignificant. This was accomplished through peaceful preaching.

And still Jesus according to many .... gets crucified ....... killed at the hands of those peaceful people he had triumphed spiritually.

But for the sake of argument, if it is admitted that this was done through armed conquest, it doesn't negate the prophecy of the second coming of the Messiah to accomplish the same thing for the End Times generation.

3:55.

 

[Zulfiqar1919]

One request .......... your font size is making me think that I may have started losing 6/6 blessing.

Is this better?

And we know how many of those scriptures were altered. For us Muslims only unaltered text preserved in its pure form is Quran. And most of these alien ideas that have resemblance with Judaism, Christianity or Zoroastrian beliefs aren't mentioned in Quran, these have been mentioned in books of hear say.

Well the term "Messiah" المسيح is used in the Quraan, though it is not explicitly defined nor its significance revealed in the text itself (at least explicitly). Therefore, the Quraan is assuming that the audience is aware of the concept of Messiah, or that knowledge of this concept can be derived easily from other available sources. This leads me to believe that the Quraan has confirmed the Judaic concept of Messiah, which is that someone from Israelites will come and re-establish the glory of ancient Israel and redeem the people back to God.

Rationally too this doctrine makes sense. How can Islam be re-established and manifested in the Earth with power and glory unless God sends some kind of "prophetic" figure with personal charisma to accomplish the task. There has to be the agency of some great human leader for the revival of Islam. That has always been the Sunna of Allah. At present we see the pitiable decline and decay of Islam. There is no hope for its restoration if you discount the idea of a coming divinely-appointed Imam. We simply say that that coming figure is the Mahdi.

Even the way you say your dua by raising your hands resembles the Zoroastrian practice.

It also resembles the practice of Jews and Christians and many other religions. That is simply because this is the way all ancient Prophets prayed to God. This is an ancient way of praying that we have inherited from the old Prophets, the fact that people of other religions pray in a similar fashion does not cast doubt on it but on the contrary lends credence to its soundness.

The verse may very well be referring to Jesus but the addressee may not be the Ummat of Muhammad but Jesus?

Whatever the merits of your claim that the addressees are not the Ummat of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), the fact remains that the Verse is saying that Messiah is a Sign of the Hour, a predictive statement about the future, hence this is the Verse from which the doctrine of second coming of Messiah is derived.

Okay then tell me why would your Mahdi kill 1 billion pagans? Why do you believe that towards the end it would be either Islam or sword? Aren't you contradicting your own views?

I don't know if the Mahdi will kill 1 billion pagans. But what I meant to say was that in the End Times, as the process of Judgment Day is beginning, the dynamics are changing, and the punishment of God upon disbelievers is being materialized through the agency of the Messiah. In other words, sometimes God punishes a nation and passes judgment on them through the agency of a "natural disaster", an earthquake, a storm, a flood, subjugation to a foreign power, but also through the agency of a Prophet or in this case through the Messiah.

And still Jesus according to many .... gets crucified ....... killed at the hands of those peaceful people he had triumphed spiritually.

Well the Holy Quraan denies that the Messiah was murdered by means of crucifixion. The possibilities are that he either survived crucifixion, was resurrected from the dead, or someone else was crucified in his place. Whatever the case was, the triumph of the Messiah's followers over the disbelievers did not necessarily occur in the lifetime of the Messiah or while he was among them. It obviously happened after he departed.

Now I assume you cited Sura 3: 55 to argue that the Messiah died. Even if that is the case, and I lean in that direction myself, it does not necessarily negate the prophecy of his second coming, for that could also be materialized through the sending of another person who fulfills the Messianic role and is thus also identified with the Messiah son of Mary.

 

[I.R.A]

Is this better?

Thank you much better now.

Well the term "Messiah" المسيح is used in the Quraan, though it is not explicitly defined nor its significance revealed in the text itself (at least explicitly). Therefore, the Quraan is assuming that the audience is aware of the concept of Messiah, or that knowledge of this concept can be derived easily from other available sources. This leads me to believe that the Quraan has confirmed the Judaic concept of Messiah, which is that someone from Israelites will come and re-establish the glory of ancient Israel and redeem the people back to God.

3:45 ........ his name will be Maseeh but he will be famous by name of Essa ibne Mariam .......

In our normal understanding we associate word Maseeh aur Maseeha with medical practitioners and Jesus / Essa had the God gifted ability of healing people.

And if the audience was aware of the concept of Messiah in the sense you think, then what was the need to resist when that promised Messiah came to them? Even if we for argument's sake believe that Judaic concept of Messiah is / was true then it has happened already ............ there is no need for repeat and it is against the laws of nature. The human mind has evolved to a stage where any intelligent mind would doubt and question the happenings of miracles ........ it has to be something logical ....... though we as Muslims believe in "كُنۡ فَيَكُوۡنُ" but on the other hand we also believe that Quran is for all the humans to come, it is the final message for every desert dweller to any person who may be living in the most scientific technological era.

Rationally too this doctrine makes sense. How can Islam be re-established and manifested in the Earth with power and glory unless God sends some kind of "prophetic" figure with personal charisma to accomplish the task. There has to be the agency of some great human leader for the revival of Islam. That has always been the Sunna of Allah. At present we see the pitiable decline and decay of Islam. There is no hope for its restoration if you discount the idea of a coming divinely-appointed Imam. We simply say that that coming figure is the Mahdi.

Quran is there and with passage of time new discoveries would attest that its the true message and success lies in following the system proposed by Quran through its Divine guidance. We understand Quran warns Muslims of living in hell like conditions if we don't follow and derive laws from its Divine immutable guidance. It is pretty much supported by how we killed each other when we got divided into Sects. Look around and see and tell me if most of us Muslims are not living in hell like conditions? Aren't these conditions not our own created problems? Don't you think most of these sufferings would go away if we unite under the banner of Quran and start implementing laws derived from guidance contained in Quran? What other Mahdi is needed then? Doesn't Quran say your condition isn't going to change unless you start changing it yourself? What is the need of Messiah and Mahdi then? Will they bring any new book? No sir ...........

It also resembles the practice of Jews and Christians and many other religions. That is simply because this is the way all ancient Prophets prayed to God. This is an ancient way of praying that we have inherited from the old Prophets, the fact that people of other religions pray in a similar fashion does not cast doubt on it but on the contrary lends credence to its soundness.

Jews corrupted Bible. The only common thing between Jews, Christians and Muslims is belief in One God 3:64 and 3:65.

Whatever the merits of your claim that the addressees are not the Ummat of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), the fact remains that the Verse is saying that Messiah is a Sign of the Hour, a predictive statement about the future, hence this is the Verse from which the doctrine of second coming of Messiah is derived.

Muhammad is seal of the Messengers .......... are you suggesting that Jesus if resurrected will be demoted from being a Messenger a Prophet to normal human? This doesn't make sense.

I don't know if the Mahdi will kill 1 billion pagans. But what I meant to say was that in the End Times, as the process of Judgment Day is beginning, the dynamics are changing, and the punishment of God upon disbelievers is being materialized through the agency of the Messiah. In other words, sometimes God punishes a nation and passes judgment on them through the agency of a "natural disaster", an earthquake, a storm, a flood, subjugation to a foreign power, but also through the agency of a Prophet or in this case through the Messiah.

God is just and lawful .......... however the law of requital is there to make us realise that no action of ours goes unaccounted for. God doesn't punish people because HE likes it that way .......... it only happens by our own actions.

 

[Zulfiqar1919]

3:45 ........ his name will be Maseeh but he will be famous by name of Essa ibne Mariam .......

In our normal understanding we associate word Maseeh aur Maseeha with medical practitioners and Jesus / Essa had the God gifted ability of healing people.

Maseeh always carries the connotations of "anointed" and "traveler". It is in the sense of the former one "anointed" in which it is employed throughout the Hebrew Bible, referring to the practice of anointing the head of a new king with oil.

And if the audience was aware of the concept of Messiah in the sense you think, then what was the need to resist when that promised Messiah came to them?

Because though they accepted the concept of Messiah and were eagerly awaiting his appearance, they rejected that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. So they were aware of and accepted the concept, but rejected the identity of the Messiah as Jesus of Nazareth because of the evil desires of their hearts.

Even if we for argument's sake believe that Judaic concept of Messiah is / was true then it has happened already ............ there is no need for repeat and it is against the laws of nature. The human mind has evolved to a stage where any intelligent mind would doubt and question the happenings of miracles ........ it has to be something logical ....... though we as Muslims believe in "كُنۡ فَيَكُوۡنُ" but on the other hand we also believe that Quran is for all the humans to come, it is the final message for every desert dweller to any person who may be living in the most scientific technological era.

The Quraan itself never makes the argument that now there will be no more extraordinary miracles and Signs because people have "evolved" and become more intelligent. This idea was proposed by Iqbal under the influence of Nietzsche. It has no basis in the Quraan itself. If you confess that such extraordinary miracles happened in human history, it makes no sense to say that they cannot be repeated again in the future. Either you accept that miracles can happen in the future too, or else deny the possibility of extraordinary miracles altogether including as ever occurred in the past.

Quran is there and with passage of time new discoveries would attest that its the true message and success lies in following the system proposed by Quran through its Divine guidance. We understand Quran warns Muslims of living in hell like conditions if we don't follow and derive laws from its Divine immutable guidance. It is pretty much supported by how we killed each other when we got divided into Sects. Look around and see and tell me if most of us Muslims are not living in hell like conditions? Aren't these conditions not our own created problems? Don't you think most of these sufferings would go away if we unite under the banner of Quran and start implementing laws derived from guidance contained in Quran? What other Mahdi is needed then? Doesn't Quran say your condition isn't going to change unless you start changing it yourself? What is the need of Messiah and Mahdi then? Will they bring any new book? No sir ...........

How will Muslims unite under the banner of Quraan without a divinely-guided leader? Who will lead such a movement to unite the Muslims under the Quraan? Logically, it has to be a special person that is divinely-guided by God. That is the meaning of "Mahdi", one who is guided. The Quraan says our condition will change when we change ourselves, and part of that change of condition will be the advent of the Mahdi. Right now we are bereft of an Imam, so God will change our condition and send us an Imam (Mahdi) but first, as you said, we have to prepare ourselves for his appearance by changing our own selves.

Jews corrupted Bible. The only common thing between Jews, Christians and Muslims is belief in One God 3:64 and 3:65.

Not at all. You keep saying Bible is corrupted. Corrupted doesn't mean everything in it is wrong, it only means somethings have been changed. You cannot dismiss these heavenly books so easily, especially when they do not expressly contravene something from the Quraan.

Muhammad is seal of the Messengers .......... are you suggesting that Jesus if resurrected will be demoted from being a Messenger a Prophet to normal human? This doesn't make sense.

I am not suggesting that at all. Rather, the Messiah is a Prophet but he will be subordinate to the Shari'a of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). His Nubuwwa will not be an independent type where he is a law-bearing prophet, rather, he will be a Prophet that receives revelation, but will be subordinate to the Shari'a of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). His function will be not to bring a new book or law, but to revive and fulfill the Law of Quraan and Sunna.

 

[I.R.A]

Because though they accepted the concept of Messiah and were eagerly awaiting his appearance, they rejected that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. So they were aware of and accepted the concept, but rejected the identity of the Messiah as Jesus of Nazareth because of the evil desires of their hearts.

Moses informed of coming of Jesus through Torah, Jesus informed of coming of Muhammad through Bible........ but did Muhammad inform explicitly of resurrection of Jesus? The verse you referred to is interpreted by people who believe Jesus would come back ..... in that way. As I said Muhammad is the seal of Prophets and Messengers and it is not sunnah of ALLAH to discriminate between HIS messengers ......... Jesus coming back would be demotion and it can also be interpreted that Quran has failed the test of times and has lost its importance and significance and needs another personality after great personality of Muhammad to revive its message ...... it is nonsensical ....... many scholars, scientists, researchers have embraced Islam because they found Quran's message to be very true. It may very well happen that such people may take charge ...... as Quran mentions, "we may replace you with better people".

The Quraan itself never makes the argument that now there will be no more extraordinary miracles and Signs because people have "evolved" and become more intelligent. This idea was proposed by Iqbal under the influence of Nietzsche. It has no basis in the Quraan itself. If you confess that such extraordinary miracles happened in human history, it makes no sense to say that they cannot be repeated again in the future. Either you accept that miracles can happen in the future too, or else deny the possibility of extraordinary miracles altogether including as ever occurred in the past.

Advent of technology is a miracle itself, any person from 1400 years ago would agree. The nature of the miracles is what matters, the miracles needs to be in acceptable my mental capacity of the people of that time in which that miracle is to happen.

How will Muslims unite under the banner of Quraan without a divinely-guided leader? Who will lead such a movement to unite the Muslims under the Quraan? Logically, it has to be a special person that is divinely-guided by God. That is the meaning of "Mahdi", one who is guided. The Quraan says our condition will change when we change ourselves, and part of that change of condition will be the advent of the Mahdi. Right now we are bereft of an Imam, so God will change our condition and send us an Imam (Mahdi) but first, as you said, we have to prepare ourselves for his appearance by changing our own selves.

Logically it is impossible for one person to unite a billion plus people who are strictly divided into different sects with different beliefs. The understanding and spread of message of Quran cannot be made conditional to presence of any specific person ......... when Muhammad (Peace be upon) himself has been warned in Quran, and no person after Muhammad holds the status that Muhammad (peace be upon him) holds.

Not at all. You keep saying Bible is corrupted. Corrupted doesn't mean everything in it is wrong, it only means somethings have been changed. You cannot dismiss these heavenly books so easily, especially when they do not expressly contravene something from the Quraan.

I am not dismissing anything neither its in my power, I referred to 3:63 to point to what Quran has to say about our common belief.

"Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."

I am not suggesting that at all. Rather, the Messiah is a Prophet but he will be subordinate to the Shari'a of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). His Nubuwwa will not be an independent type where he is a law-bearing prophet, rather, he will be a Prophet that receives revelation, but will be subordinate to the Shari'a of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). His function will be not to bring a new book or law, but to revive and fulfill the Law of Quraan and Sunna.

Do you understand the consequences of what you are saying? You are opening doors for false prophets and further division.

Why so much opposition to Ghulam Ahmed Mirza then? Why declare his followers as non Muslims then?

 

[Zulfiqar1919]

Moses informed of coming of Jesus through Torah, Jesus informed of coming of Muhammad through Bible........ but did Muhammad inform explicitly of resurrection of Jesus?

Not resurrection, but second advent. There are many Ahadeeth which speak of second coming of Messiah. Because they reach the level of mutawaatir (mass-transmitted) in their essence about second coming, it is irrational to deny the attribution of this prophecy to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). The logic is that if so many people are narrating the same thing at each level of transmission, it is impossible that they all collaborated and concocted it.

Jesus coming back would be demotion and it can also be interpreted that Quran has failed the test of times and has lost its importance and significance and needs another personality after great personality of Muhammad to revive its message ...... it is nonsensical .

How is it a demotion? The Quraan is a Book, but that Book isn't being followed at present. It is not the Book's fault, it is the spiritual and moral deterioration of the people. It is the Sunna of Allah to send prophets and divinely-guided individuals to revive the Message from time to time. This does not at all take away from the excellence and perfection of that Message - Quraan.

Advent of technology is a miracle itself, any person from 1400 years ago would agree. The nature of the miracles is what matters, the miracles needs to be in acceptable my mental capacity of the people of that time in which that miracle is to happen.

Where did you derive this principle from?

Logically it is impossible for one person to unite a billion plus people who are strictly divided into different sects with different beliefs. The understanding and spread of message of Quran cannot be made conditional to presence of any specific person

The role of the Mahdi and Messiah isn't necessarily to unite all Muslims, only to revive the true spirit of Islam and establish the supremacy of Islam. I'm sure that the Mahdi and Messiah will in fact not only be opposed by non-believers but by many so-called Muslims too due to their bias to a particular sect or ideology. the Mahdi and Messiah will be opposed by various so-called "Muslim" governments and regimes which don't want to lose their power and position. The Mahdi and Messiah may not unite all the Muslims, but they will surely decimate the opposition and that is all that will be required.

"Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."

This verse does not imply that the only valid thing remaining in the Scripture is the idea of worshiping only One God. This verse is addressing the People of Scripture (Jews and Christians) as communities, not talking about what is actually the content of that Scripture.

Do you understand the consequences of what you are saying? You are opening doors for false prophets and further division.

Why so much opposition to Ghulam Ahmed Mirza then? Why declare his followers as non Muslims then?

A false prophet will be someone who opposes the teaching of Quraan and Sunna and is not subordinate to the Shari'a of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). But the Quraan has not discounted the advent of the Messiah as a Prophet who is subordinate to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and is bound by his Shari'a.

Ghulam Ahmad Mirza is another topic. Suffice to say, he did not claim to be a prophet in the sense that you are thinking of, hence neither he nor his followers should be regarded as non-Muslims.

 

[Taygibay]

Joe Shearer
PROFESSIONAL, Male, from Hyderabad

Fed up with dealing with nincompoops. I will communicate only with a limited list of Pakistanis and Indians. Sep 19, 2017


OH! That's sad!
Well, good luck my friend; I'm very glad to have had the chance
to talk with you before you had to come to that decision . . .

All the best from here on, Tay.

​

 

[BDforever]

Joe Shearer
PROFESSIONAL, Male, from Hyderabad

Fed up with dealing with nincompoops. I will communicate only with a limited list of Pakistanis and Indians. Sep 19, 2017


OH! That's sad!
Well, good luck my friend; I'm very glad to have had the chance
to talk with you before you had to come to that decision . . .

All the best from here on, Tay.

​

Bro got emotional

 

[Taygibay]

LOL, it ain't me, LOL !

Joe put that up as his new status on his profile page so
I thought : why not poke some fun at his inclusiveness.



Great day to you mate, Tay.

 

[I.R.A]

Not resurrection, but second advent. There are many Ahadeeth which speak of second coming of Messiah. Because they reach the level of mutawaatir (mass-transmitted) in their essence about second coming, it is irrational to deny the attribution of this prophecy to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). The logic is that if so many people are narrating the same thing at each level of transmission, it is impossible that they all collaborated and concocted it.

Do you know of Chinese Whisper? There is gap of centuries between departure of Muhammad Peace be upon him and when Ahadeeth were gathered. Do you know that Abu Bakar and Omer had burnt the collections of Ahadeeth. The ones that were collected after centuries were totally based on verbal narrations .... there was no written document to refer to. Amazingly you at one hand are saying that billion plus Muslims of today have lost the right path and need a spiritual guide ........ but on other hand you think that if so many narrate something based on verbal accounts ........ it should be right.

How is it a demotion? The Quraan is a Book, but that Book isn't being followed at present. It is not the Book's fault, it is the spiritual and moral deterioration of the people. It is the Sunna of Allah to send prophets and divinely-guided individuals to revive the Message from time to time. This does not at all take away from the excellence and perfection of that Message - Quraan.

Quran is the last book Muhammad is the last Prophet Messenger ........... anyone who after Him claims to have a divine revelation is a liar ........... period. And this has been sufficiently mentioned in Quran.

Where did you derive this principle from?

So you expect someone from say 400 years ago to see a flying jet and act normal? Obviously he would be stunned and miracles tend to shock people.

The role of the Mahdi and Messiah isn't necessarily to unite all Muslims, only to revive the true spirit of Islam and establish the supremacy of Islam. I'm sure that the Mahdi and Messiah will in fact not only be opposed by non-believers but by many so-called Muslims too due to their bias to a particular sect or ideology. the Mahdi and Messiah will be opposed by various so-called "Muslim" governments and regimes which don't want to lose their power and position. The Mahdi and Messiah may not unite all the Muslims, but they will surely decimate the opposition and that is all that will be required.

Again ........ if Mahdi is going to choose sides ....... he is going against Quran. The message of Quran is unity.

And permission of violence in Quran is only to wipe out oppression, exploitation and violence.

This verse does not imply that the only valid thing remaining in the Scripture is the idea of worshiping only One God. This verse is addressing the People of Scripture (Jews and Christians) as communities, not talking about what is actually the content of that Scripture.

If we have so much common then why we tend to be blood enemies?

A false prophet will be someone who opposes the teaching of Quraan and Sunna and is not subordinate to the Shari'a of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). But the Quraan has not discounted the advent of the Messiah as a Prophet who is subordinate to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and is bound by his Shari'a.

Quraan neither mentioned explicitly the second advent of Jesus. And it doesn't make any sense that such important events won't be mentioned clearly in Quran.

Ghulam Ahmad Mirza is another topic. Suffice to say, he did not claim to be a prophet in the sense that you are thinking of, hence neither he nor his followers should be regarded as non-Muslims.

For Lahori group he is Mahdi for Qadiyanis he is prophet. And no Messenger or Prophet could be without a book.

 

[Desert Fox]

And culture is something that is not set in stone it can and does change over time

False. People create culture which changes very little. This is why you don't see Chinese people doing this:

a weird restriction which will only earn them bad press

To you they might be "weird" but to any reasonable person they would be logical.

By your absurd logic there shouldn't be any immigration laws either because restrictions are "weird"?

I gave both ends of the arguments here

Both of them were false.

But even if (a big IF), hypothetically your arguments were true in some parallel twilight zone I could still give two shit's because as I said, I'm a Pakistani Nationalist who is loyal to his nation and people and desires their preservation.

Beyond that nothing else matters.

Well its always more fun to beat religious fundos at their own game when the chance is available
You can use the evolution argument too here but most dont even believe in it

Chasing your own tail does not = winning arguments.

Who says the demographic is being altered here?At the very best number of non Afghan/Bengali/Burman foreigners is not more than 100,000

None of these people should even be in Pakistan to begin with. They bring crimes, drugs, sectarian and ethnic tensions/violence. They have put a massive strain on the infrastructure of our cities, especially Karachi which now has slums rivaling those of India. And there's no way to send them back!

But because we have traitors running the country all of this has been allowed to go unchecked.

foreigners is not more than 100,000

It could be 1,000,000 or just 1; if they're not a tourist they don't belong here. Simple.

 

[Zibago]

It could be 1,000,000 or just 1; if they're not a tourist they don't belong here. Simple.

Its your opinion most Universities welcome foreign students and teachers it has always been this way throughout history many great universities attracted students from far off places

especially Karachi which now has slums rivaling those of India

Korangi cant be compared to the slums of Mumbai its a mix of middle class and lower class localities

None of these people should even be in Pakistan to begin with.

If they came here legally and dont do any funny business i see no reason why they should be treated harshly i mean we have thousands of Uighyurs in Rawalpindi an entire market was named China market because of them

Chasing your own tail does not = winning arguments.

You need to have a solid base for your arguments.My argument stands firm on all grounds be it religion,history or scientific

By your absurd logic there shouldn't be any immigration laws either because restrictions are "weird"?

I got news for you kid you are not a white Evangelical from Boston so lets not mix up issues of different countries here

False. People create culture which changes very little. This is why you don't see Chinese people doing this:

Oh yes i am sure all of Africa dresses like this from tip of Egypt to the shore of South Africa and all follow Animist religion and practice its customs lets all pretend its a homogeneous region

 

[Desert Fox]

Its your opinion most Universities welcome foreign students and teachers it has always been this way throughout history many great universities attracted students from far off places

Where did I ever say I was against students coming to study?

Korangi cant be compared to the slums of Mumbai its a mix of middle class and lower class localities

A slum is a slum. Doesn't matter how you try to put it.

My argument stands firm on all grounds be it religion,history or scientific

Again, chasing your own tail.

This is you: "if I keep saying I'm right I will eventually be right"

Clearly there are major racial differences, both history, religion and science prove this.

If all humans were literally the same then there would not be a single difference between the various human societies.

Because if we're all the same then how come Pakistanis don't live like this (except for maybe you of course)?

Oh yes i am sure all of Africa dresses like this from tip of Egypt to the shore of South Africa and all follow Animist religion and practice its customs lets all pretend its a homogeneous region

Exactly (thanks for proving my point)! They're all not the same cultures despite being in close proximity to one another. So cultural exchanges are very minimal. Majority of the culture is still the same.

Oh yes i am sure all of Africa dresses like this from tip of Egypt to the shore of South Africa and all follow Animist religion and practice its customs lets all pretend its a homogeneous region

Now I got news for you kid, pretending to be Liberal on the internet is not going to make you White in real life.

 

[Zibago]

Now I got news for you kid, pretending to be Liberal on the internet is not going to make you White in real life.

Guess i struck a raw nerve here

Exactly (thanks for proving my point)! They're all not the same cultures despite being in close proximity to one another

Um yeah about that close proximity thing

Again, chasing your own tail.

Ah love atleast once try to base your position on facts instead of propaganda from white nationalists

A slum is a slum. Doesn't matter how you try to put it.

A well equipped locality attached to or close to a slum is not technically a slum

If all humans were literally the same then there would not be a single difference between the various human societies.

A poor and illiterate society will always be at a disadvantage from an educated and wealthy society if same conditions are applied everywhere results will turn out to be same over a few generations after a society goes through massive changes.We have seen that in our own country do you live the same way your non American non white grandfather did

Clearly there are major racial differences, both history, religion and science prove this.

Are you aware of the scientific view on race?

what you define as race science defines as adaptation to survive in different climates by the same species that left its homeland after environmental changes(when the Sahara went dry)

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

There are ways.

This is once more globalist/Capitalist nonsense that we must give up our sovereignty and national identities in order to enter a new age of "progress".

If progress means that we should accept the importation of completely alien races into our country and completely alter it's demographics and cultural composition, and thus its identity, then no thanks we don't need such progress.

@Psychic @The Sandman @PAKISTANFOREVER @django

I don't mind Russians & Chinese coming to Pakistan. But don't want blacks coming here. They can NEVER EVER be compatible with us.