What Should be the "ideal" size of the Pakistan Navy in 2020.

[Aamir Hussain]

Basically, we are both saying the same thing - the economy has to rebound for us to go ahead with such a plan.

 

[LAKHNAVI]

we don't require an aircraft carrier but by 2020 we should be in talks for one.

why be in ''talks for one'' when you ''dont require an aircraft carrier''

 

[LAKHNAVI]

we don't require an aircraft carrier but by 2020 we should be in talks for one.

why be in ''talks for one'' when you ''dont require an aircraft carrier''

 

[TOPGUN]

What PN needs is a decent number of surface ships & subs follwed by more missle boats and more air defence bases around the coast of Pakistan.The PN air arm needs to be expanded a bit more with more p-3's armed with antiship missles and perhaps PAF needs to give another sq of mirages armed with antiship missles to PN air arm. Marines troop numbers need to come up more i think as long as our coast is safe its what lies in the best interest of PN nothing more.

 

[Storm Force]

Without Naval power you cant influence the surrounding neighbourhood.

You are effectively land locked...

A serious Navy COSTS serious Money.

A GOOD Template would be Japan or South Korea sized fleet. Around 20 major surface fighting ships and 15 submarines.

Just for the record India latest indengious destroyers are costing $1 billion each.
The Arihant subs x5 will cost $ 6 billion

2 carriers Gorskhov and one indengious $2.7 billion each

Scorepene subs x 6 $3 billion.

REAL SEA POWER COSTS THE WORLD $$$$$$$$$

 

[Jigs]

I don't know about the ideal size but you need advanced littoral ships and submarines and maybe some seagoing frigates with good AAW suite. That would be the ideal navy for your needs.

Looking at the current situation i think more OHPs could be ordered since they are low cost(to replace the Type 21s if they see a good restoration to their original weapons). Submarines and modern FAC would also make sense. AAW is very much lacking and i think Pakistan would need to turn to China for that. I don't believe the U.S. is willing to sell ESSM to Pakistan but this could wait if those OHPs get their original systems back. As that would mean RIM-66 capability.

 

[Pak_Sher]

PN needs a submarine force of 16-20 along with a 80-100 ship navy. The inexpensive option in the short and medium term will be add smaller missile boats on a monthly basis armed with tarpedoes and anti-ship missiles. Iran has followed the model. A sizable fleet of midget submarines can also be very effective to protect the sea frontiers.

 

[truthseeker2010]

to have a navy like south korea or japan we need to have a economy like them....

 

[Storm Force]

Tuth seeker REAL MILITARY POWER is economic power.

Without a REAL STRONG GDP you can never build a powerful modern navy.

You are right about the template BOTH Japan & Korea have massive budgets compared to Pak Navy

 

[Jigs]

to have a navy like south korea or japan we need to have a economy like them....

You also need to be surrounded by water for it to matter. Both are. India is to a large extent. Pakistan isn't. The point of their navy is to deny India access to their coast. If they become capable enough to make India reconsider a strategy that involves gaining access to the Pakistani Coastline then the Navy did its job.

 

[naumananjum]

Instead of Aircraft Carrier PN should focus on Subs and Frigates if possible N-subs
because Aircraft carrier will be only useful in attacking role so they might not require them and even maintaining a carrier is too costly

agree to this

 

[niaz]

There is no such thing as ideal. I like Hon Aamer Hussein’s approach. There is a minimum requirement and beyond that is how much we can afford. PN has always been treated as a step sister of the armed services and comes last when the limited resources of Pakistan are allocated among the three services. IMO a credible navy is a must for any sovereign nation. Therefore we need to determine the minimum level of deterrence required to counter the perceived threat.

Our main threat remains the very powerful Indian Navy. Therefore in order for the PN to perform her primary task of keeping the sea lanes clear we need in the order as noted below:

1. Cheapest and easiest way to block sea ports/lanes is to lay mines on the approaches to the ports either by submarines or by aircrafts. A fleet of efficient mine clearing vessels is a must to keep ports working. I would say a minimum of 4 Mine hunters would be needed.

2. In 1971 PN had no answer to the missile firing Ossa boats of the IN. Missile boats also provide inexpensive means to defend coastal waters. I would say about 8-10 modern guided missile boats of say 200 to 300 tons class should suffice.

3. Oldest and the truest stealth weapon is a submarine. Submarine is however essentially an offensive weapon. I would think that about half a dozen hunter killer modern submarines with AIP should be enough to pose a serious threat to any enemy warship threatening to block approaches to Pakistani ports.

4. Modern naval battles have turned into aircraft battles since the famous battle of Midway. Besides, India has an aircraft carrier with MIG 29N aircraft. To counter this threat PN needs long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft to spot the possible threat, modern anti ship missile firing aircrafts to destroy the intruder and finally at least a squadron of modern fighters to protect the missile firing aircraft.

Considering the small size of Pakistan’s coast line; 8 PC-3 Orions equipped with Harpoons and a squadron of JF17 with about 10 carrying Exocet AM-39 with the balance 8 providing fighter cover should suffice.

5. A credible surface fleet is also needed to defend against the large number of surface vessels of the IN threatening sea lanes. I would guess that about 10 frigates/destroyers for anti aircraft/ anti ship defence along with about 6 corvettes for anti submarine defence should suffice. It is understood that the frigates as well as corvettes would each have an armed helicopter as well.

6. In addition to that above PN needs about 8 gunboats for anti smuggling operations along with a few tug boats and supply ships as well as about a dozen helos for Search & Rescue and liaison work.

In the light of the above minimum deterrent requirements of PN are:

Surface fleet:
4 mine hunters, 10 frigates/destroyers, 6 corvettes, 8 missile boats, 8 gunboats, 3 tugs, 3 supply ships/fleet oilers, 1 training ship.

Submarines:
6 state of the art submarines.

Naval aviation:
8 PC-3 Orions, 18 Jf-17 or F-16s capable of carrying anti ship missiles, 6 Search & Rescue helos, 16 armed helos to complement frigates and corvettes and a few helos and light aircrafts for inter base liaison.

Once the above requirement has been fulfilled, PN would need offensive blue water capability to ambush enemy vessels far from our shores. For this additional 4 to 6 modern submarines capable of firing cruise missiles and another 4 to 6 modern frigates also capable of firing cruise missiles should be more than enough. In the unilkely event that we can afford it, a nuclear submarine would provide a very credible offensive capability. Don’t think PN would need anything beyond this to counter the perceived threat from our neighbours in the the near future.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Strategically, i think the extra toys that PN inventory needs are Aegis equivalent destroyers and nuclear subs.

One single AC won't be better than these. Furthermore, it would cost PN a lot to operate it.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I agree with Niaz Sahib. This is something PN can afford in the near terms.

 

[fatman17]

There is no such thing as ideal. I like Hon Aamer Hussein’s approach. There is a minimum requirement and beyond that is how much we can afford. PN has always been treated as a step sister of the armed services and comes last when the limited resources of Pakistan are allocated among the three services. IMO a credible navy is a must for any sovereign nation. Therefore we need to determine the minimum level of deterrence required to counter the perceived threat.

Our main threat remains the very powerful Indian Navy. Therefore in order for the PN to perform her primary task of keeping the sea lanes clear we need in the order as noted below:

1. Cheapest and easiest way to block sea ports/lanes is to lay mines on the approaches to the ports either by submarines or by aircrafts. A fleet of efficient mine clearing vessels is a must to keep ports working. I would say a minimum of 4 Mine hunters would be needed.

2. In 1971 PN had no answer to the missile firing Ossa boats of the IN. Missile boats also provide inexpensive means to defend coastal waters. I would say about 8-10 modern guided missile boats of say 200 to 300 tons class should suffice.

3. Oldest and the truest stealth weapon is a submarine. Submarine is however essentially an offensive weapon. I would think that about half a dozen hunter killer modern submarines with AIP should be enough to pose a serious threat to any enemy warship threatening to block approaches to Pakistani ports.

4. Modern naval battles have turned into aircraft battles since the famous battle of Midway. Besides, India has an aircraft carrier with MIG 29N aircraft. To counter this threat PN needs long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft to spot the possible threat, modern anti ship missile firing aircrafts to destroy the intruder and finally at least a squadron of modern fighters to protect the missile firing aircraft.

Considering the small size of Pakistan’s coast line; 8 PC-3 Orions equipped with Harpoons and a squadron of JF17 with about 10 carrying Exocet AM-39 with the balance 8 providing fighter cover should suffice.

5. A credible surface fleet is also needed to defend against the large number of surface vessels of the IN threatening sea lanes. I would guess that about 10 frigates/destroyers for anti aircraft/ anti ship defence along with about 6 corvettes for anti submarine defence should suffice. It is understood that the frigates as well as corvettes would each have an armed helicopter as well.

6. In addition to that above PN needs about 8 gunboats for anti smuggling operations along with a few tug boats and supply ships as well as about a dozen helos for Search & Rescue and liaison work.

In the light of the above minimum deterrent requirements of PN are:

Surface fleet:
4 mine hunters, 10 frigates/destroyers, 6 corvettes, 8 missile boats, 8 gunboats, 3 tugs, 3 supply ships/fleet oilers, 1 training ship.

Submarines:
6 state of the art submarines.

Naval aviation:
8 PC-3 Orions, 18 Jf-17 or F-16s capable of carrying anti ship missiles, 6 Search & Rescue helos, 16 armed helos to complement frigates and corvettes and a few helos and light aircrafts for inter base liaison.

Once the above requirement has been fulfilled, PN would need offensive blue water capability to ambush enemy vessels far from our shores. For this additional 4 to 6 modern submarines capable of firing cruise missiles and another 4 to 6 modern frigates also capable of firing cruise missiles should be more than enough. In the unilkely event that we can afford it, a nuclear submarine would provide a very credible offensive capability. Don’t think PN would need anything beyond this to counter the perceived threat from our neighbours in the the near future.

Niaz Sb - good analysis - except for the requirement in the last para, all the above are 'within' the PN budget and no 'additional' funding wld be required - also historically the numbers match.