What should be done to Increase Religious tolerance in Pakistan/ serious Discussion

[DesiGuy]

Mincing the words again dear lord . bye

I have no interest in conversing with someone who once who fails to accept their mistakes .

that's cuz you can't argue with someone who has made up their mind that this is this...and not that. Logic simply fails in religious discussions.

 

[Commander T]

and.....that's where problem lies in Islam.

and btw....same can be said about islamic mullahs...who have "misinterpreted" Quran and made islam lost its "superior" effectiveness on mankind..!

yes this has happened,,,Quran has been misundersood, and this is why we are facing terrorism today, but that does not means that islam has lost its effecivness on mankind because the orignal scripture is safe and cannot be corrupted......and he who wants to gain enlightment will be guided if he wants it by heart.........this is such a Unique qualiy that cannot be found in anyother religion including christianity and Judism because scripture of both these religions have been corrupted........ so Islam remains the most pure religion which can never lost its effeciveness on mankind untill Quran is safe... And don't misunderstood Islam with the thoughts of MULLAH, those are idoits who have sold religion for their own sake...

 

[DesiGuy]

yes this has happened,,,Quran has been misundersood, and this is why we are facing terrorism today, but that does not means that islam has lost its effecivness on mankind because the orignal scripture is safe and cannot be corrupted......and he who wants to gain enlightment will be guided if he wants it by heart.........this is such a Unique qualiy that cannot be found in anyother religion including christianity and Judism because scripture of both these religions have been corrupted........ so Islam remains the most pure religion which can never lost its effeciveness on mankind untill Quran is safe... And don't misunderstood Islam with the thoughts of MULLAH, those are idoits who have sold religion for their own sake...

hold on...hold on...you are eating your own words now. You said before:
"they were corrupted by Scholars of that religion and hence lost their effeciveness on mankind"

and i ask you that's what is happening to Islam today. its corrupt Scholars have made islam lost its effeciveness on mankind.


Bottom line here is this: As i said before: If muslims like you (forget mullahs) believe that other religions are false, how could you claim Islam as tolerant religion??
You yourself have said Quran says
"but the 2 that have been menioned in Quran to be true are IBRAHMIC religions, christianity and Judism (jews)"

Now what does that make other religions? False..?

 

[BATMAN]

Ibn e Kathir was a Muhaddith basically and History written by Muhadditheen is always biased , be it Imam Dhahbi , or Ibn e Hajar or Shah Abdul Aziz Muhaddaith Dehlavi . Muhaddiseen base their version of history on basis of hadith and do not consider historians to be authentic (either Muslim or orientalist) . They reject any account narrated by some one with shiite influence . Ironically "khawarij"(who killed Ali r.a) on the other hand , are considered to be one of the most authentic narrators . Hope you can see the "bias" !!! Shibli followed established methods and techniques for evaluation of different historical accounts . This rift between Muhaddiseen and Islamic historians is as old as the subject itself is . e.g , The greatest medieval Muhaddis , Ibn e Hajar Asqalani declared that the greatest Muslim historian , Al Masudi , had shiite influence , so his history should be rejected . A very unfair , unacademic and prejudiced approach .

Regarding election of Abu Bakr r.a , he was not elected , but selected by Umar r.a . And Ali r.a gave Bayyah to Abu Bakr r.a only after the death of Fatima . (six months after selection of Abu Bakr) , and we read in Bukhari that Ayesha r.a said that it was due to the fact that Ali started to lose his popularity after the death of daughter of prophet (pbuh) and therefore decided to make a compromise . Banu Hashim only followed .

Banu Hashim includes Abbasis too , who were responsible for killing of descendants of Ali r.a . Banu Abbas had gained the support of masses against Ummayads on basis of kinship to Muhammad (pbuh) . In the beginning they were considered a sect of Rafidhis (Kesanya) . When they were successful in establishing Khilafah , they started to look at the descendants of Ali r.a , and their religion as the greatest threat to the crown of Abassids . The sunni schools of fiqh and Sihah sittah originated (and were regulated later)during Abbasid rule under full state protection !!.

Why are you spreading false propaganda, considering that your version is nothing but bunch of lies prepared by to agitate Muslims.
I heard your stated version for the first time. Abu Bakar Siddique, defended Islam from enemies.

 

[halupridol]

i thought religious stuff is not allowed here.....

 

[M. Sarmad]

Why are you spreading false propaganda, considering that your version is nothing but bunch of lies prepared by to agitate Muslims.
I heard your stated version for the first time. Abu Bakar Siddique, defended Islam from enemies.

Abu Bakar r.a did a great service to Islam , no doubt . But all the companions of prophet were human beings and were not free of errors

And I am not spreading any propaganda dear . Your ignorance of these facts does not mean that they never happened . Read a few things brother (at least the primary ones) and you may yourself realize that intolerance is a result of "blind following" and not Islamic teachings or history .

 

[Dubious]

Shibli was much more than that , but here I was not quoting Shibli Naumani , I was referring to

1.Sahih Al Bukhari , (unquestionably The most authentic source)
2.Sirah Ibn e Hisham (the first history book written on Islam)


Bukhari has quoted the second caliph Umar Ibn Khattab extensively on what transpired at the Saqifah of Bani Saa’edah:
Says Umar: Following the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.), news reached us that the Ansaar (Immigrants) had assembled at the Saqifah-i-Bani Saa’edah. I told Abu Bakr, ‘Let us go there so that we join our Ansaar brethren.’
Abu Bakr obliged and we reached Saqifah together. Ali, Zubair and their companions were not with us. At Saqifah, we observed that a group of Ansaar had brought someone with them who was completely covered. It was Sa’d ibn Ubaadah running a very high temperature. We sat besides them. A man from the Ansaar stood up and as had been decided, after praising Allah began to speak, ‘We are the friends and lovers of Allah. We are the soldiers and the strength of Islam. But you, O Muhaajireen, are few in number and …’
I (Umar) thought of replying but Abu Bakr pulled my sleeves and quietened me. He then himself stood up, and God is witness, said what I wanted to and he said it better than me.
Abu Bakr said, ‘O company of Ansaar! You are surely the recipient of the attributes which you have described and you have achieved them. But, Caliphate and government is only the right of the Quraish because they are renowned for their nobility and lineage, manners and conduct throughout the Arabian Peninsula and enjoy an undisputed position. It is only for your betterment that I do this, I present before you two people so that you may choose whomsoever you wish for the Caliphate. Saying this, Abu Bakr caught hold of my(Umer`s) hand and that of Abu Ubaidah and presented us before the crowd. I disliked the last suggestion. While another Ansaar stood up and commented:
اَنَا جَذِيْلُهَا الْمَحْكُ وَ عَذِيْقُهَا الْمُوْجَبُ-
I am among you (O Ansaar) like a stick with which camels are driven or that tree which provides shade. If it is so, O Muhajireen! Then appoint a ruler amongst you and we will appoint one from amongst us. A great commotion erupted at this statement. We witnessed great opposition and rivalry. I took advantage of this commotion and said to Abu Bakr, ‘Extend your hand so that I may pay allegiance to you.’ Abu Bakr complied and I paid allegiance to him. Having done this, we gathered near Sa’d Bin Ubadah…. After this entire episode, if somebody pays allegiance to the Caliphate of any other caliph without the consultation of the Muslims, adhere neither to the follower nor the allegiance taker, for both are liable for capital punishment.
Saheeh Bukhari, Kitabul Hudud, Baabul Rajmul Hablaa, 4/ 119-120
Seerae Ibne Hisham, 4/ 336-338 Kanz al-Ummaal, 3/ 139- Hadith 2326

You do realize what you quoted is not exactly all over the net!
May I ask what have you achieved from this?

Secondly, may I show you what Sahih Bhukhari book 4 :119 and 120 actaully say:

Hadith 4:119
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Once the people of Medina were frightened, so the Prophet rode a horse belonging to Abu Talha and it ran slowly, or was of narrow paces. When he returned, he said, "I found your (i.e. Abu Talha's) horse very fast. After that the horse could not be surpassed in running..'

Hadith 4:120
Narrated ('Abdullah) bin 'Umar:

The Prophet arranged for a horse race amongst the horses that had been made lean to take place between Al-Hafya'' and Thaniyat Al-Wada' (i.e. names of two places) and the horses which had not been mad.? lean from Ath-Thaniyat to the mosque of Bani Zuraiq. I was also amongst those who took part in that horse race. Sufyan, a sub-narrator, said, "The distance between Al-Hafya and Thaniya Al-Wada' is five or six miles; and between Thaniya and the mosque of Bani Zuraiq is one mile."

I cant find the hadith you quoted based on Sahih Bhukhari Kitaab-ul-Huddud....

2ndly, Hadith are not what happened after the death of the Prophet because Hadith are narrations of what the prophet did or said....So when he has died and an incident took place after that is not part of a hadith!! So I have no idea where you got that story from!
But since this happened after the Prophet died it is not even in the hadiths!

Prophet (pbuh) did not appoint Abu Bakr as his successor:

" One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was like that, but God saved (the people) from its evil
Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:82:817

817 Narrated Zaid bin Khalid: Allah's Apostle ordered that an unmarried man who committed illegal sexual intercourse be scourged one hundred lashes and sent into exile for one year.

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
It was said to 'Umar, "Will you appoint your successor?" Umar said, "If I appoint a Caliph (as my successor) it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Abu Bakr) did so, and if I leave the matter undecided, it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Allah's Apostle) did so."
Sahih al-Bukhari , Volume 9, Book 89, Number 325

And a lot of authentic references can be given that Prophet (pbuh) did not appoint any successor . selection Of Abu Bakr was sudden and not pre planned or by the will of prophet (pbuh)

All other claims were added centuries later to further justify the caliphate of Abu Bakr . None of the primary source says that Abu Bakr was elected caliph because he led the prayers in the lifetime of Muhammad . Also he was not the only one to do so , so this claim cant be accepted academically . hope you understand !!

I am sorry until and unless you put the reference of where you picked up the hadith I have no clue where it is from......Plus I already apologized abo

Sorry I just googled it and found the author of such a story "Montgomery Watt"
Abu Bakr then asked people to choose between 'Umar ibn al-Khattab and Abu 'Ubaydah ibn al-Jarrah. Hearing this, both men jumped to their feet and exclaimed "O Siddiq, how can that be? How can anyone else fill this position as long as you are among us? You are the top man amongst heMuhajirun. You were the Companion of the Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam in the Thawr cave. You led prayers in his place, during his last illness. Prayer is the foremost thing in Islam. With all these qualifications you are the fittest person to be the successor of the Holy Prophet. Hold out your hand that we may pledge loyalty to you."

But Abu Bakr did not stretch out his hand. 'Umar saw that the delay might lead to the reopening of the disagreements so he himself took Abu Bakr's hand out and pledged loyalty to him. Others followed by example, and Abu Bakr became the first Caliph by general consent of the Muslims.

But @Azlan Haider how is this all relevant to the thread apart from a derailing element?

Mincing the words again dear lord . bye

I have no interest in conversing with someone who once who fails to accept their mistakes .

Bye! I would love to see when you accept your mistake in life!

It is far easier to bring down the other than to show yourself as a better person

 

[Commander T]

hold on...hold on...you are eating your own words now. You said before:
"they were corrupted by Scholars of that religion and hence lost their effeciveness on mankind"

and i ask you that's what is happening to Islam today. its corrupt Scholars have made islam lost its effeciveness on mankind.


Bottom line here is this: As i said before: If muslims like you (forget mullahs) believe that other religions are false, how could you claim Islam as tolerant religion??
You yourself have said Quran says
"but the 2 that have been menioned in Quran to be true are IBRAHMIC religions, christianity and Judism (jews)"

Now what does that make other religions? False..?

i never said other religions are false, its just that they were there just for a particular time and they even lost the true teachings..... how can you call a religion true when it has even lost the teaching what were ordered by its founder, can you say that you have everthing saved what was ordered by Jesus or can jews say that they every scripture and orders by Moses saved till now.... but Islam does have almost everthing saved in the form of Hadis and Quran and old scriptures and we have certain ways or exracting the truth even if the religion is Misunderstood or correupted by Mullahs...... do you have....and after all, all three ibrahmic religion are waiting for MESSIAH. but all this is off topic so leave it here and give your sugesstion about topic

 

[CrazyPaki]

easy solution teach every Pakistani quranic arabic

 

[Dubious]

Then teach them Islam if that helps. BTW doesn't Islam says that it's only the true path and everything else is false and misguided?

Agreed with the 1st part and bold part is explained in post 322

 

[BATMAN]

Abu Bakar r.a did a great service to Islam , no doubt . But all the companions of prophet were human beings and were not free of errors

And I am not spreading any propaganda dear . Your ignorance of these facts does not mean that they never happened . Read a few things brother (at least the primary ones) and you may yourself realize that intolerance is a result of "blind following" and not Islamic teachings or history .

I'm sure Abu Bakar can err, i was just talking about his over all service.
History of Islam has nothing to do with one becoming Muslims, and we had Muslims even before Khilafat.

 

[Dubious]

i thought religious stuff is not allowed here.....

Unfortunately everything but the original topic is discussed on this thread!

hold on...hold on...you are eating your own words now. You said before:
"they were corrupted by Scholars of that religion and hence lost their effeciveness on mankind"

and i ask you that's what is happening to Islam today. its corrupt Scholars have made islam lost its effeciveness on mankind.


Bottom line here is this: As i said before: If muslims like you (forget mullahs) believe that other religions are false, how could you claim Islam as tolerant religion??

believing in something is a belief...I belief alot of things but it doesnt make me act on it....It makes me want to know more about something...

You yourself have said Quran says
"but the 2 that have been menioned in Quran to be true are IBRAHMIC religions, christianity and Judism (jews)"

Now what does that make other religions? False..?

The Quran says other religions were true ...enough to make one question about the adulteration in them! However those religions were for a certain time and for a certain group of people who existed at those times because that was their thinking and that was their laws and customs...

Now if you dont believe in the Quran there is no way I can quote it and make you understand....

that's cuz you can't argue with someone who has made up their mind that this is this...and not that. Logic simply fails in religious discussions.

Likewise!

@DesiGuy and @Cherokee if you have something to add to the thread please do otherwise please leave...

That is the logic thing to do...Yet I dont see anyone doing it...

I left 2 posts on page 1 for Indians...shows how many actually read page 1 of a thread before jumping in!

Mincing the words again dear lord . bye

I have no interest in conversing with someone who once who fails to accept their mistakes .

You related about your friend "A practicing Muslim" with whom you cant reason because of their thinking...I asked you to read the Quran and tell me does it program you to think that way or is it the habit of Indians?

 

[M. Sarmad]

You do realize what you quoted is not exactly all over the net!
May I ask what have you achieved from this?

Secondly, may I show you what Sahih Bhukhari book 4 :119 and 120 actaully say:



I cant find the hadith you quoted based on Sahih Bhukhari Kitaab-ul-Huddud....

2ndly, Hadith are not what happened after the death of the Prophet because Hadith are narrations of what the prophet did or said....So when he has died and an incident took place after that is not part of a hadith!! So I have no idea where you got that story from!
But since this happened after the Prophet died it is not even in the hadiths!


I am sorry until and unless you put the reference of where you picked up the hadith I have no clue where it is from......Plus I already apologized abo


But @Azlan Haider how is this all relevant to the thread apart from a derailing element?

please dont use large fonts , it hurts eyes

You checked english translation ?? check the original version (in arabic) , the hadith numbers are usually different

 

[Dubious]

Education it is. And the right form too.

Thousands of religious schools with extreme rules adhering to a certain sect of the religion,which is the harshest and the most intolerant of all.

The by-products have no knowledge of ,or skill in, anything other than reciting the holy book and were thus ,like teeming of thousands and thousands of them, making them virtually unemployable else where.

But given the task to do by their chief mentor they would die for it, which is alarming and is a threat of the past, and of the present and for the future of the nation.

Nothing new...it is the same thing 50% of us have already brought up! BTW, as a TT I would expect you to at least read page 1 of the thread before jumping in based on the title!

 

[Ayush]

I left 2 posts on page 1 for Indians...shows how many actually read page 1 of a thread before jumping in!
/quote]
?

and why should any indian follow that?
because you say so?