What made IAF Stand down in Kargil

[Genghis khan1]

Pakistan shot down armed aerial vehicles that dared to cross our borders--not by mistake--but in a war theatre.

india shot down an unarmed, big aeroplane with trainees on it.

Shows the caliber and standard of both forces..

One force showed martial disciple and took on military threats head on---while the other force backstabbed by taking a shot at an unarmed trainee filled airplane.

No wonder hindus, being inferior, were ruled by dominant, martial Muslims for thousand year.

Crazy people keep dragging religion in to everything. Have you ever seen an Indian dragging religion in to everything why ? because we don't give a damn for the religion. We are Indian first and Hinduism cant even be considered a religion these days its just a way of life or a thought. Most hindu's don't even practise.

I think when people talk like this, they also meant genetics. Since all Hindu are in India, so that kinda hit two thing with one stone.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It may have been on a anti shipping mission.
Few weeks before that it was almost shot down by ins godavari

@Gregor Clegane
@surya kiran

Sometimes I regret that our own members from India do not have enough background to reply properly. Please consider the following, and respond accordingly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarat_Beechcraft_incident

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balwantrai_Mehta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_Air_War_of_1965

www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/pak-air-force-pilot-apologises-for-shooting-down-gujarat-cm-aircraft-after-46-years-9789.html

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.in/2011/04/gujarat-beechcraft-incident-1965-war.html

http://daily.bhaskar.com/news/GUJ-A...arat-cm-plane-pak-pilot-condoles-2345216.html

http://zeenews.india.com/news/south-asia/pak-pilot-says-sorry-for-1965-downing-of-plane_725412.html




AERONAUT - a compendium of my articles on fighter flying, air wars, etc.

April 28, 2011

The Gujarat Beechcraft Incident - 1965 War


"It is a twin-engined, twin-tailed aircraft….with four side windows, probably an eight-seater….it is flying at 3,000 ft AMSL. Request further instructions.” Flg Off Qais M Hussain, who had been scrambled from Mauripur Station to check a suspicious radar contact south-west of Bhuj, was reporting to the Ground Controlled Interception (GCI) controller at Badin’s FPS-20 radar[1].


“Standby,” replied the GCI controller Flg Off Aziz A Khan, hesitantly, as he decided to consult the higher ups.


Qais, a rookie who had completed his conversion on F-86s from USA only four months earlier, belonged to No 18 Squadron and was part of a small detachment of pilots that was being rotated at Mauripur, while the rest of the squadron operated out of Sargodha. While on alert duty on 19 September, his F-86F pair was scrambled around 1545 hrs (PST). Qais, however, had to take off as a singleton since his leader, Flt Lt A I Bukhari, had aborted due to a starting problem. Another standby aircraft, flown by Flt Lt A S Kazmi, took off after a delay of 6-7 minutes, but it never caught up with Qais and continued to hold over the border at 20,000 ft.


Initially, Qais had also been told to climb to 20,000 ft to conserve fuel, but was later directed to descend lower and try to spot the reported contact visually. Somewhere during the descent, Qais lost radio contact with Badin but luckily, Kazmi’s F-86 came in handy as a useful radio relay. Looking around intently, Qais caught a glint of bare metal in the afternoon sun. After having closed in and, having examined his quarry thoroughly, Qais passed his initial report to Badin via Kazmi. He then started orbiting over and around what was only later confirmed as a Beechcraft Model 18 commuter aircraft.


“When I saw this aircraft, I asked myself what was I to do with it,” recollects Qais. To his surprise, the Beechcraft pilot reacted to the interceptor’s presence by climbing up from its cruise altitude of 3,000 ft. Qais thought to himself that if shooting orders came, it would only make his job easy, compared to the trickier high-to-low shooting from stern, had the aircraft ducked down to low level.


“During the anxious wait of several minutes, I was wishing and hoping that I would be called back immediately, without firing any bullets,” recalls Qais pensively. However, the stark orders from Badin were relayed by Kazmi: “You are clear to shoot.” Adjusting himself behind the doomed Beechcraft, Qais fired a short burst from about 1,000 ft and saw a splinter fly off from the left wing. Speeding past the stricken aircraft, Qais readjusted for a second firing pass. Firing a long burst this time, he saw the right wing in flames. Moments later, the Beechcraft nosed over into a near vertical dive and exploded in a ball of fire near the village of Suthali, about half a mile from the coast (about 45 nautical miles WSW of Bhuj). Just then, Kazmi called out that Badin radar was reporting several aircraft – possibly Vampires from Jamnagar, it was thought – heading towards the scene of shooting.


Having flown a good 210 nm from home base and, been aloft for 30 minutes, the fuel state of the F-86 was low and precluded possibility of escape while hugging the ground. Qais was, however, fortunate to stumble onto a towering coastal cloud bank that he could hide behind, while climbing away. Reaching 15,000 ft over the border, Qais started a slow descent for Mauripur. His fuel tanks bone dry, Qais landed through a precautionary flame-out landing pattern.


The same evening it was learnt through All India Radio that the eight people on board the Beechcraft, including the Chief Minister of Gujarat State, Balwantrai Mehta, had been killed; also on board were the Chief Minister’s wife, Mrs Sarojben Mehta, three members of the Chief Minister’s personal staff and a press reporter from the daily Gujarat Samachar. The crew of two included an ex-IAF pilot, Jehangir M Engineer, one of IAF’s four famous Engineer brothers[2]. He was the chief pilot of Maharashtra State Government but was on loan to Gujarat. The aircraft had taken off from the Gujarat capital of Ahmedabad and was on its way to the small town of Mithapur that lay 200 nm WSW, at the mouth of the Gulf of Kutch. The aircraft had apparently drifted off-course considerably, for the crash site is almost 40 nm north of the intended destination.


An Indian inquiry into the incident submitted the facts four months later. According to the inquiry report, the IAF authorities at Bombay had refused to let the aircraft proceed on the flight. When the Gujarat government pressed for clearance, the IAF authorities agreed reluctantly, giving clearance for the pilot to proceed at his own risk.


The purpose of the risky visit to Mithapur remains unclear. One could speculate, though, that the Chief Minister may have sought to publicly demonstrate solidarity with his coastal constituency in the wake of Pakistan Navy’s earlier attack on Dwarka which, while tactically insignificant, was wholly morale-shattering. After all, the Chief Minister had, only earlier that morning, presided over a mass National Cadet Corps rally in Ahmedabad “to boost the country’s defence effort.”[3]


Regrettable as the news of civilian deaths were, no one at Headquarters No 2 Sector at Badin had feared that civilians would be on board an aircraft in the thick of the war zone. The Sector Commander, Wg Cdr Mehmood Hassan and the Officer Commanding of the Operations Wing, Sqn Ldr Abdul Moiz Shahzada had hastily surmised that the aircraft was proceeding on some sort of a reconnaissance or air transport mission. Shooting down of the aircraft was, thus, deemed an indisputable answer to the prevailing quandary. The niceties of territorial inviolability had obviously no room for debate, for this was clearly not a peace-time situation.


Both India and Pakistan had utilised civilian registered aircraft for transportation of military supplies, equipment or manpower and, for maritime reconnaissance during the 1965 War (as well as 1971 War). The inherent military potential of any aircraft was well understood and, was suitably exploited. The onus of safety of these platforms lay on the host country, as the lines between their civilian and military usage were blurred during hostilities. Except for United Nations or Red Cross / Red Crescent aircraft whose identity is unmistakably displayed, all other aircraft could be construed as liable to serving military objectives, not withstanding their civilian registration markings. Proper codification of aviation law to remove any doubts on the issue did not exist in the 1965 era and, in fact, was first made part of the Geneva Convention as late as 1977.


It would be worthwhile to study a portion of 'Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions’ of 12 August 1949, and 'Relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I) Article 52’ of 8 June 1977. Even a cursory reading reveals that total or partial destruction, capture or neutralisation of those ‘objects’ that can make effective contribution to military action by virtue of their nature, location, purpose or use, is defensible. The statute clarifies that while civilian ‘objects’ per se shall not be the attacked, it clearly makes an exception ‘if these objects serve military objectives.’


Rather than attempting to seek cover of a later legislation through retroactive application, it would be instructive, purely from an academic standpoint, to see how the incident stands up to contemporary international legalities. It can be seen that the object under discussion namely, the Beechcraft aeroplane, by its nature, was capable of transporting military stores/personnel as well as performing land or maritime reconnaissance (visually at least); its location was also in an area contiguous to the land and maritime war zones. The actual purpose of the flight – which, in the event, turned out to be VIP movement – borders on the suspect when seen in the light of the other provisions mentioned heretofore, which unequivocally qualify the aircraft as ‘serving military objectives.’


Unfortunately, the safety of the aircraft stood compromised from the outset. Sadly, the loss of innocent lives has cast a shadow under which, more than anyone else, Qais has had to live for over four decades. He looks back ruefully, though he has no doubt that he was doing his duty.


___________________


[1][1] Badin’s FPS-20 radar was designated as the Master GCI Station for HQ No 2 (Air Defence) Sector which was co-located at Badin.
[2] ‘The Times of India’ News Service, Ahmedabad, Gujarat, 20 September, 1965.

[3] ‘Express’ News Service, Ahmedabad, Gujarat, 20 September, 1965.


Author's Notes:


1) Based on his familiarity with the ‘scramble-identification-shooting’ loop, and the not infrequent pilot-controller miscommunication during interceptions especially on a faulty radio, the author is inclined to consider the intriguing possibility of a case of mistaken identity. In such a scenario, the staff at HQ No 2 Sector would have found Qais’ initial report broadly matching the description of a C-119 ‘Packet’ transport aircraft of the IAF, to the extent of being ‘twin-tailed, twin-engined, with four side windows.’ In all likelihood, no one knew what a civilian Beechcraft Model 18 looked like, whereas the unique C-119 military transport aircraft was a recognisable silhouette in Aircraft Recognition charts and manuals readily available in all Ops Rooms. The prompt shooting orders may have, thus, come straightforwardly, not withstanding the civilian registration number called out by Qais earlier.


2) In his recent letter (Aug 2011) to Mrs Farida Singh, the daughter of the downed pilot, Qais stated that on being spotted the Beechcraft pilot started "waggling his wings seeking mercy". This detail was not mentioned by Qais to the author when this article was first published in April 2011. In view of the apparent 'submission' by the Beechcraft, the possibility of shepherding the aircraft (through visual signals) for a forced landing at Mauripur could be debated. It has to be remembered, however, that for a young Flying Officer, this would have been an unthinkable violation of the clear shooting orders given by the HQ No 2 Sector. In any case, the Beechcraft would not have had enough fuel to make it to distant Mauripur. Searching for one of the disused airfields in the area for a forced landing, would also not have been feasible due to the already low fuel state of both aircraft.


Acknowledgement is made to Air Cdre (R) Abdul Moiz Shahzada, Wg Cdr (R) Aziz A Khan and Flg Off (R) Qais Mazhar Hussain for their description of the incident.


© KAISER TUFAIL


This article was published in 'Defence Journal', April 2011 issue.

 

[volatile]

Few weeks before that it was almost shot down by ins godavari

Are these facts or fiction ?

 

[navtrek]

I think when people talk like this, they also meant genetics. Since all Hindu are in India, so that kinda hit two thing with one stone.

genetics lol i am a bio-technologist so don't be kidding me on that.

 

[surya kiran]

Exactly, he only gets away with it because he's a "professional".



1. Bangladesh was going to get independence no matter what you did, India just made it happen faster. I would have liked to see India do it without Bangladeshi support, or at the beginning of the conflict before we started struggling. Not to mention India does not own Bangladesh, trying to help someone get independence and trying to conquer a land are two different things. In 1947, we managed to take over 30,000 square miles from India (Kashmir) and we actually managed to own it. That's just as big an achievement, if not a bigger one.

2. Siachen is disputed, we still have some troops there and your guys still haven't been able to advance (neither have we, but my point still remains). Also, you waste a lot more resources there for a war that will never happen.

The truth is, if India had the capability, it would have attacked Pakistan in 1999, 2002, and 2008. But it didn't, so it does not have the capability. Don't give me rubbish about intent because we both know how much animosity India holds for Pakistan.

1. Once you lose it, well...not much can be said. So yeah, Bangladesh would always have been free is a good way to soothe yourself.

2. You are not anywhere on Siachen. And once again, you did not get it, so console yourself with the argument that we are spending so much.

Like I mentioned before, the truth is the times we actually carried out the war threat we established our writ. Now, you can keep consoling yourself that we do not have capability. but as displayed in both scenarios, when did have intent, there was zilch that your army could do.

 

[Hamza913]

1. Once you lose it, well...not much can be said. So yeah, Bangladesh would always have been free is a good way to soothe yourself.

2. You are not anywhere on Siachen. And once again, you did not get it, so console yourself with the argument that we are spending so much.

Like I mentioned before, the truth is the times we actually carried out the war threat we established our writ. Now, you can keep consoling yourself that we do not have capability. but as displayed in both scenarios, when did have intent, there was zilch that your army could do.

1. Well you can console yourself with the fact that to win in Bangladesh you had to outnumber our army 15:1. Must sting to know that's the level of incompetency within your military.

2. Do you even know where the Siachen is? Can you even find it on a map? I doubt you even know when the fighting started, since you have made the incredibly ignorant claim Pakistan isn't in the Siachen. Please do your research before making stupid claims.

Zilch our army could do? In 1971, India suffered higher casualties and again, to free Bamgaldesh had to outnumber us 15 to 1. In the Siachen, India continues to waste several times as much money as we do and has so far lost 4 times as many troops as we have, and you can't even conquer the entire Siachen. If you call those stunning victories that humiliate our military, you need your head checked ASAP.

I will tell you what's humiliating. In 1965, your Indian military, despite outnumbering us 4 to 1, couldn't take Lahore and your PM died of shock after signing the ceasefire. In 1999, our troops, despite being outnumbered 6:1 and having no air support, managed to conquer Kargil and it took your army a couple of months to even make some gains, so you had to rely on the US to make us leave through diplomatic pressure. Even then, we still control Point 5353 and you can't do anything. You tried to expand the conflict, but backed down into submission after realising it wasn't such a wise choice. In 2001, after Pakistani supported militants went into the Indian Parliament and killed 7 people, India geared up for war, and ended up spending 3 times as much money as Pakistan, and lost a total of 2,000 troops (twice as much as Pakistan) during the whole situation. The best part is, most of your casualties were due to accidents. After all that, you again backed down. All that effort and resources, wasted. In 2008, again, Pakistani supported militants attacked. Again, you thought you could do something. And again, you realised you couldn't. So you backed away.

Please give me one good reason why India wouldn't want to bomb Pakistan in those incidents in 1999, 2001 or 2008 other than the fact that you realised you would lose? Please, I'm all ears.

 

[surya kiran]

1. Well you can console yourself with the fact that to win in Bangladesh you had to outnumber our army 15:1. Must sting to know that's the level of incompetency within your military.

2. Do you even know where the Siachen is? Can you even find it on a map? I doubt you even know when the fighting started, since you have made the incredibly ignorant claim Pakistan isn't in the Siachen. Please do your research before making stupid claims.

Zilch our army could do? In 1971, India suffered higher casualties and again, to free Bamgaldesh had to outnumber us 15 to 1. In the Siachen, India continues to waste several times as much money as we do and has so far lost 4 times as many troops as we have, and you can't even conquer the entire Siachen. If you call those stunning victories that humiliate our military, you need your head checked ASAP.

I will tell you what's humiliating. In 1965, your Indian military, despite outnumbering us 4 to 1, couldn't take Lahore and your PM died of shock after signing the ceasefire. In 1999, our troops, despite being outnumbered 6:1 and having no air support, managed to conquer Kargil and it took your army a couple of months to even make some gains, so you had to rely on the US to make us leave through diplomatic pressure. Even then, we still control Point 5353 and you can't do anything. You tried to expand the conflict, but backed down into submission after realising it wasn't such a wise choice. In 2001, after Pakistani supported militants went into the Indian Parliament and killed 7 people, India geared up for war, and ended up spending 3 times as much money as Pakistan, and lost a total of 2,000 troops (twice as much as Pakistan) during the whole situation. The best part is, most of your casualties were due to accidents. After all that, you again backed down. All that effort and resources, wasted. In 2008, again, Pakistani supported militants attacked. Again, you thought you could do something. And again, you realised you couldn't. So you backed away.

Please give me one good reason why India wouldn't want to bomb Pakistan in those incidents in 1999, 2001 or 2008 other than the fact that you realised you would lose? Please, I'm all ears.

1. So, you lose Bangladesh, half your country and then took 90k PoW. Now you can say we deployed troops? Well that is what they are for. We ensured that we enforced the largest surrender post WW 2 on your country. So well, that is called total victory. And for you, complete defeat.

2. Pakistan is not on Siachen. Nowhere on it. Why not ask your own countrymen? You are nowhere on the glacier. I know, hard to digest the fact that you have been fed lies till now. The bottom line, let me re-state it for you. The Pakistani Army is not on the Siachen Glacier. I do not know how to say this again, but there is no Pakistani on the Siachen Glacier. It is 100% under Indian control.

The rest of your post is just frustration. Why not read on why 1965 happened? What were the objectives? Did the Pakistani operations succeed? Your GrandSlam became a PantSlam and Gibraltar became only Fartler.

But let me repeat again, you are nowhere on Siachen. Not even an inch on it.

 

[Hamza913]

1. So, you lose Bangladesh, half your country and then took 90k PoW. Now you can say we deployed troops? Well that is what they are for. We ensured that we enforced the largest surrender post WW 2 on your country. So well, that is called total victory. And for you, complete defeat.

2. Pakistan is not on Siachen. Nowhere on it. Why not ask your own countrymen? You are nowhere on the glacier. I know, hard to digest the fact that you have been fed lies till now. The bottom line, let me re-state it for you. The Pakistani Army is not on the Siachen Glacier. I do not know how to say this again, but there is no Pakistani on the Siachen Glacier. It is 100% under Indian control.

The rest of your post is just frustration. Why not read on why 1965 happened? What were the objectives? Did the Pakistani operations succeed? Your GrandSlam became a PantSlam and Gibraltar became only Fartler.

But let me repeat again, you are nowhere on Siachen. Not even an inch on it.

1. I'm really getting annoyed at this dumb statement. Bangladesh was nowhere near half of Pakistan, it's roughly the size of the whole disputed J and K region, if you actually looked at a map you would know that. Again, if you consider outnumbering us 15:1 a total victory whilst you also suffered higher casualties, you need to get your head checked.

2. Read this, it shows we own a portion of the Siachen:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siachen_conflict

About 1965, did India manage to take Lahore or Sialkot? Or did your numerically superior army fail and your PM desperately signed the ceasefire and die of shock afterwards? You tell me.

Oh and you still didn't answer my question. But it's okay, I understand that you keep living on victory's from decades ago, because right now you can't do much to Pakistan.

 

[Windjammer]

For those habitually dragging in 1971 to salvage their egos, are once again reminded that the PA was fighting a war a thousand miles from home with a much larger force on the front and a rogue and treacherous enemy stabbing from the back.
There was no benefit of any fresh logistics or supplies. the disastrous situation was complete with a single PAF unit of obsolete F-86 Sabres facing ten IAF squadrons including several of MiG-21s, in any case the PAF squadron was grounded within 48 hours of hostilities due to runway damaged but before that it still managed to shoot down 11 IAF aircraft including two MiG-21s. All in all it was a no win situation, now to give the Indians a rough idea of Pakistani situation, read what happened to the IA under somewhat similar circumstance in Sri Lanka, known as India's Vietnam, albeit, the IA had the benefit of IAF flying thousand of sorties in it's support.... now on the contrary, when circumstances are more favourable, we witnessed the likes of 2002 and 2008 scenarios and above all the subject at hand. !!!

India's Vietnam.

https://thecarthaginiansolution.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/slaf_afm_june-09_pp52-53.pdf

 

[surya kiran]

1. I'm really getting annoyed at this dumb statement. Bangladesh was nowhere near half of Pakistan, it's roughly the size of the whole disputed J and K region, if you actually looked at a map you would know that. Again, if you consider outnumbering us 15:1 a total victory whilst you also suffered higher casualties, you need to get your head checked.

2. Read this, it shows we own a portion of the Siachen:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siachen_conflict

About 1965, did India manage to take Lahore or Sialkot? Or did your numerically superior army fail and your PM desperately signed the ceasefire and die of shock afterwards? You tell me.

Oh and you still didn't answer my question. But it's okay, I understand that you keep living on victory's from decades ago, because right now you can't do much to Pakistan.

Now, you can turn around and say, it was 1000 kms away, it was geographically smaller, troops were outnumbered. The bottom line is you lost Bangladesh.

Please show me on the map, ground positions of the PA on Siachen glacier. Feel free to use PA maps. And you do not own anything on the glacier. You know why? Because you are not on it? Again, show me ground position on the glacier of the Pakistani Army.

Dude, 1965 was initiated by Pakistan to liberate Kashmir and ended up defending Lahore. The fact that ended up defending Lahore, instead of liberating Kashmir should tell you what happened there.

To windy from pindi, no point crying or saying its ego. you lost 71, ended up defending Lahore instead of liberating Kashmir. So go and pass wind somewhere else.

 

[Hamza913]

Now, you can turn around and say, it was 1000 kms away, it was geographically smaller, troops were outnumbered. The bottom line is you lost Bangladesh.

Please show me on the map, ground positions of the PA on Siachen glacier. Feel free to use PA maps. And you do not own anything on the glacier. You know why? Because you are not on it? Again, show me ground position on the glacier of the Pakistani Army.

Dude, 1965 was initiated by Pakistan to liberate Kashmir and ended up defending Lahore. The fact that ended up defending Lahore, instead of liberating Kashmir should tell you what happened there.

To windy from pindi, no point crying or saying its ego. you lost 71, ended up defending Lahore instead of liberating Kashmir. So go and pass wind somewhere else.

I already showed you a link showing we control some of the Siachen. It shows several maps, read my post next time before you reply.

As for 1965, again, we didn't liberate Kashmir, but you didn't take Lahore or Sialkot either. Both of us failed our objectives, making it a stalemate. But it's more humiliating for you guys as you outnumbered us 4 to 1 and your PM died of shock afterwards.

Bottom line for 71 is, you needed to outnumber us 15:1 to secure Bangladesh, and even then you suffered higher casualties.

Like I said in my last post, you can keep on living on victories from decades ago because you don't have anything to celebrate now.

 

[surya kiran]

I already showed you a link showing we control some of the Siachen. It shows several maps, read my post next time before you reply.
.

Did you bother reading the article yourself? Till 1984, you 'claimed' control over it. Since 1984, we control it. I do not get it. Claiming control over territory on a map and controlling territory are 2 different things.

"In an academic study with detailed maps and satellite images, co-authored by brigadiers from both the Pakistani and Indian military, pages 16 and 27: "Since 1984, the Indian army has been in physical possession of most of the heights on the Saltoro Range west of the Siachen Glacier, while the Pakistan army has held posts at lower elevations of western slopes of the spurs emanating from the Saltoro ridgeline. The Indian army has secured its position on the ridgeline.""

Here is an article from a Pakistani newspaper

http://www.dawn.com/news/1141375

Here is what it says, "The Indian army controls all of the 76 kilometres (47 mi) long Siachen Glacier and all of its tributary glaciers"

Now, the PA is present on the Saltoro ridge. This is to the west of the glacier. Not on the glacier. And they are present on the lower slopes. Why not ask your own country men on this forum?

 

[Hamza913]

Did you bother reading the article yourself? Till 1984, you 'claimed' control over it. Since 1984, we control it. I do not get it. Claiming control over territory on a map and controlling territory are 2 different things.

"In an academic study with detailed maps and satellite images, co-authored by brigadiers from both the Pakistani and Indian military, pages 16 and 27: "Since 1984, the Indian army has been in physical possession of most of the heights on the Saltoro Range west of the Siachen Glacier, while the Pakistan army has held posts at lower elevations of western slopes of the spurs emanating from the Saltoro ridgeline. The Indian army has secured its position on the ridgeline.""

Here is an article from a Pakistani newspaper

http://www.dawn.com/news/1141375

Here is what it says, "The Indian army controls all of the 76 kilometres (47 mi) long Siachen Glacier and all of its tributary glaciers"

Now, the PA is present on the Saltoro ridge. This is to the west of the glacier. Not on the glacier. And they are present on the lower slopes. Why not ask your own country men on this forum?

That's what I meant, we are present on the lower slopes. You claimed we had no presence in the region as a whole.

 

[surya kiran]

That's what I meant, we are present on the lower slopes. You claimed we had no presence in the region as a whole.

No. I said you are not present on the Siachen glacier. Nowhere close to it. The Siachen glacier is 100% under Indian control.

 

[Hamza913]

No. I said you are not present on the Siachen glacier. Nowhere close to it. The Siachen glacier is 100% under Indian control.

You didn't say the glacier, you said the region as a whole.