What made IAF Stand down in Kargil

[Joe Shearer]

No stories here.

It's harder for IAF to break-in into our airspace today than it was in 1999. The quality and scale of our airpower has significantly increased post-2006..

Offcourse it wouldn't make IAF stand down if india principally decides to launch a war against us...

And from our pov, "next time" already happened. In 2001-02, and in 2008---both times, indian military "stood down" as we moved our military elements towards war-time locations and started Combat Air Patrols over our cities and around our aerial borders. With our nuclear warheads increasing in number, quality, and our missile's range now covering even Eastern most Islands of India , rest assured, indian military will continue to "stand-down" and a certain threshold will be maintained in subcontinent.




PAF's culture was never authoritarian. PAF's strategic insight and planning have always been of top quality amongst all services of subcontinent---leading PAF to preempt 1965 indian invasion and launching multiple successful attacks on enemy--and even achieving a better kill ratio over larger enemy in 1971.

However, Army has been the dominant service in our military and their strategic insight has been questionable at times. However, this culture has changed. PAF-Army have become increasingly synchronized over last decade and disagreements at Corps commander meetings isn't unusual anymore. Example of it can be seen in Pakistan Army's decisions regarding Waziristan operations.

Anyways...

First, about the PAF. It is extremely unfair to twist my citation into a seeming criticism of the PAF. Nothing could be further from the truth. The PAF is Pakistan's truly world-class service, and I have never said anything different. BUT this thread was an abortion; only WindUp could come out with shit like this, the feather-brained motor-mouthed propagandist that he is, and there is no way to show the PAF in a favourable light, because there was no role that the PAF could have played. I agree that the pre-emptive strikes in 1965 got the IAF into a lot of trouble, but you are ignoring the statistics, and I will not use up valuable time to draw those lessons once again. The same thing applies to 1971. You are neglecting or deliberately ignoring a very clear change in the sortie-rate of both sides, one decreasing sharply, one increasing steadily.

However, to return to the Army. It has been your weakest link to date, not because it is in itself, but it is enmeshed with that peculiar and contorted entity hidden deep inside Pakistan, the Pakistan deep state. They have become fatally addicted to living and working in a democratic-hating environment. It is this that you have to take into account . .

No stories here.

It's harder for IAF to break-in into our airspace today than it was in 1999. The quality and scale of our airpower has significantly increased post-2006..

Offcourse it wouldn't make IAF stand down if india principally decides to launch a war against us...

And from our pov, "next time" already happened. In 2001-02, and in 2008---both times, indian military "stood down" as we moved our military elements towards war-time locations and started Combat Air Patrols over our cities and around our aerial borders. With our nuclear warheads increasing in number, quality, and our missile's range now covering even Eastern most Islands of India , rest assured, indian military will continue to "stand-down" and a certain threshold will be maintained in subcontinent.




PAF's culture was never authoritarian. PAF's strategic insight and planning have always been of top quality amongst all services of subcontinent---leading PAF to preempt 1965 indian invasion and launching multiple successful attacks on enemy--and even achieving a better kill ratio over larger enemy in 1971.

However, Army has been the dominant service in our military and their strategic insight has been questionable at times. However, this culture has changed. PAF-Army have become increasingly synchronized over last decade and disagreements at Corps commander meetings isn't unusual anymore. Example of it can be seen in Pakistan Army's decisions regarding Waziristan operations.

Anyways...

First, about the PAF. It is extremely unfair to twist my citation into a seeming criticism of the PAF. Nothing could be further from the truth. The PAF is Pakistan's truly world-class service, and I have never said anything different. BUT this thread was an abortion; only WindUp could come out with shit like this, the feather-brained motor-mouthed propagandist that he is, and there is no way to show the PAF in a favourable light, because there was no role that the PAF could have played. I agree that the pre-emptive strikes in 1965 got the IAF into a lot of trouble, but you are ignoring the statistics, and I will not use up valuable time to draw those lessons once again. The same thing applies to 1971. You are neglecting or deliberately ignoring a very clear change in the sortie-rate of both sides, one decreasing sharply, one increasing steadily.

However, to return to the Army. It has been your weakest link to date, not because it is in itself, but it is enmeshed with that peculiar and contorted entity hidden deep inside Pakistan, the Pakistan deep state. They have become fatally addicted to living and working in a democratic-hating environment. It is this that you have to take into account . .

 

[Hamza913]

What does that even mean?

For @Thorough Pro and @dsr478 , yes, they don't like the conversation any more, it isn't going their way, they have no clue where to look for information once they run out of Internet fanboy forum anecdotes, and what was printed was not comfortable for them.

No, we have stopped talking to you because you are rude. End of story.

 

[volatile]

^Actually shooting down 1 Indian jet and 1 helicopter leading to deaths of 5 personel was a big mistake by Pakistan.
It simply led to IAF Taking revenge by shooting down a Pakistani anti submarine aircraft which unfortunately led to death of 16 Pakistani navy officials.

Firstly Atlantic was not a millitary jet nor it was on bombing mission ,secondly Indian Air force is/was full responsible for shooting down any thing which goes into there airspace same as PAF .In coming days IAF did shoot many intruders from Pakistan
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...rous-payload-in-balloon-shot-down-by-iaf-jet/

India is always looking for an excuse where as PAF with limited budgets ,spares were not ready to escalate any thing beyond its control .Onyl difference between two Armed forces is code of conduct ,on that count PAF managed to stay far a head ,e.g

https://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpr...g-news-indian-jets-violate-pakistan-airspace/
http://oly.com.pk/pakistan-returns-indian-helicopter/
https://defence.pk/threads/the-day-paf-routed-out-iaf.246187/

So in the end its always honour and code not cheap kills ,which we know in times of war we will get these

 

[Gregor Clegane]

Firstly Atlantic was not a millitary jet nor it was on bombing mission ,secondly Indian Air force is/was full responsible for shooting down any thing which goes into there airspace same as PAF .In coming days IAF did shoot many intruders from Pakistan
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...rous-payload-in-balloon-shot-down-by-iaf-jet/

India is always looking for an excuse where as PAF with limited budgets ,spares were not ready to escalate any thing beyond its control .Onyl difference between two Armed forces is code of conduct ,on that count PAF managed to stay far a head ,e.g

https://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpr...g-news-indian-jets-violate-pakistan-airspace/
http://oly.com.pk/pakistan-returns-indian-helicopter/
https://defence.pk/threads/the-day-paf-routed-out-iaf.246187/

So in the end its always honour and code not cheap kills ,which we know in times of war we will get these

LMAO.
It was a military aircraft operated by Pakistan Navy.

It carries torpedoes and depth charges and even exocet missiles

 

[volatile]

LMAO.
It was a military aircraft operated by Pakistan Navy.

It carries torpedoes and depth charges and even exocet missiles

By Millitary aircraft means Fighter bombers and jets and at no point it was threatening any Indian assets in Arabian sea ,infact it was on routine petrol .

The Atlantique Incident was an event in which a Breguet Atlantic patrol plane of the Pakistan Navy's Naval Air Arm, with 16 people on board, was shot down by the Indian Air Force for violating Indian airspace. The episode took place in the Rann of Kutch on 10 August 1999, just a month after the Kargil War, aggravating already tense relations between India and Pakistan.

Foreign diplomats based in Pakistan and escorted to the site by the Pakistani Army noted that the plane may have crossed the border. However, the Islamabad-based diplomats said they also believed that India's reaction was unjustified.[2] Pakistan later lodged a compensation claim at the International Court of Justice, blaming India for the incident, but the court dismissed the case, ruling that the Court had no jurisdiction in the matter.[3][4][5]

While Pakistan said that the plane was unarmed and the debris was within Pakistani territory, India maintained that warnings had been given to the Atlantic and that its flight trajectory meant it could have fallen on either side of the border. According to the Indian version of events, the MiGs tried to escort it to a nearby Indian base, when the Pakistani aircraft turned abruptly and tried to make a dash for the border; it was only then that it was fired upon. India claimed that the debris was found in a radius of 2 km on either side of the border and that the intrusion took place 10 km inside the Kori Creek, which is Indian territory. Pakistan requested that the matter be taken up in the UN. Indian officials blamed that there had been previous violations in the area and pointed out that in the previous year a Pakistaniunmanned surveillance aircraft had intruded 150 km inside the Indian border, coming close to the Bhuj air base before the IAF spotted it and brought it down with several missiles.[15]

 

[Gregor Clegane]

By Millitary aircraft means Fighter bombers and jets and at no point it was threatening any Indian assets in Arabian sea ,infact it was on routine petrol .

The Atlantique Incident was an event in which a Breguet Atlantic patrol plane of the Pakistan Navy's Naval Air Arm, with 16 people on board, was shot down by the Indian Air Force for violating Indian airspace. The episode took place in the Rann of Kutch on 10 August 1999, just a month after the Kargil War, aggravating already tense relations between India and Pakistan.

Foreign diplomats based in Pakistan and escorted to the site by the Pakistani Army noted that the plane may have crossed the border. However, the Islamabad-based diplomats said they also believed that India's reaction was unjustified.[2] Pakistan later lodged a compensation claim at the International Court of Justice, blaming India for the incident, but the court dismissed the case, ruling that the Court had no jurisdiction in the matter.[3][4][5]

While Pakistan said that the plane was unarmed and the debris was within Pakistani territory, India maintained that warnings had been given to the Atlantic and that its flight trajectory meant it could have fallen on either side of the border. According to the Indian version of events, the MiGs tried to escort it to a nearby Indian base, when the Pakistani aircraft turned abruptly and tried to make a dash for the border; it was only then that it was fired upon. India claimed that the debris was found in a radius of 2 km on either side of the border and that the intrusion took place 10 km inside the Kori Creek, which is Indian territory. Pakistan requested that the matter be taken up in the UN. Indian officials blamed that there had been previous violations in the area and pointed out that in the previous year a Pakistaniunmanned surveillance aircraft had intruded 150 km inside the Indian border, coming close to the Bhuj air base before the IAF spotted it and brought it down with several missiles.[15]

Lol.Rules of engagement world wide define military aircraft as any aircraft with a potential to carry weapons and operated by armed forces or paramilitary of a nation.

 

[surya kiran]

That one time you did it was when Pakistan was at an utter disadvantage, there was no possible way for us to protect East Pakistan. It was literally surrounded by India. If India controlled, let's say, Quetta, and Pakistan blockaded it, would India be able to do anything? No. And please don't forget we still gave you a good enough beating to make you pursue nuclear weapons.

As to whether or not India can invade Pakistan now (or in 99, 02 or 08), you can't. You put on such a big show and were going to numerous times, but realised it wasn't exactly a smart move. India wouldn't just halt an attack because it all of a sudden didn't feel like it, the only possible reason is that India realised it was not capable.

Again like I said, intent and capability. You can call your failures and give a 100 reasons. There have been 2 instances where we did something with intent.

1. Bangladesh - You can say Quetta and Rawalpindi and what not. Dhaka, was Pakistani territory. We took it and carved a new country out of it. Intent backed with capability.

2. Siachen - You tried. We did. Intent backed with capability.

Pakistani attempts are always high in intent and zero capability or capacity.

This is the difference. While you think we do not have the capability, the truth is that we do not have the intent, yet. The days when we have the intent, there is nothing you chaps have been able to do it. You lost Siachen and you lost East Pakistan.

 

[Windjammer]

No, we have stopped talking to you because you are rude. End of story.

He's not just rude but despicable, I have never seen so many members complaining about an individual's behaviour and if we all adopted the same manner this forum will lose all it's reputation.
He calls my thread sh**, yet he never fails to prove that he's the biggest dung beetle out there.

 

[Thorough Pro]

LOL, brave or rather sane men don't bring fully armed strike corps to a neighbours border and then retreat like a drenched cat after two years of chest thumping and big talk, which is a hallmark of indian mentality.

<ahem>

Those were citations from an Air Commodore in the PAF, who retired with honour. Where in his account did you find corroboration for your empty-headed brag that the IAF stood down multiple times? Of course, he didn't talk about the IA, so that, we must conclude, is your speculation. As for the cowardice, brave men don't have to die to prove anything to creatures like you.

Thorough Pro, I believe. At what? Blowing up balloons?

Hey Indians stop defending your corrupt and incompetent air force, it has brought you shame and humiliation time and time again despite being a white elephant on your meager resources. Spend that money on half a billion hungry, naked and mal-nourished Indians.

You must have heard this Punjabi phrase, not sure when, why and how it was coined but it perfectly fits to define indian air force, "Kattay dudh nahin chonday" (Bulls never give milk)

Pussy indian air force can only shoot unarmed planes or balloons.

LMAO.
It was a military aircraft operated by Pakistan Navy.

It carries torpedoes and depth charges and even exocet missiles

 

[Gregor Clegane]

LOL, brave or rather sane men don't bring fully armed strike corps to a neighbours border and then retreat like a drenched cat after two years of chest thumping and big talk, which is a hallmark of indian mentality.





Hey Indians stop defending your corrupt and incompetent air force, it has brought you shame and humiliation time and time again despite being a white elephant on your meager resources. Spend that money on half a billion hungry, naked and mal-nourished Indians.

You must have heard this Punjabi phrase, not sure when, why and how it was coined but it perfectly fits to define indian air force, "Kattay dudh nahin chonday" (Bulls never give milk)

Pussy indian air force can only shoot unarmed planes or balloons.

looks like you need to learn definition of unarmed.

 

[Windjammer]

Shooting down a slow unarmed aircraft the size of an airliner is indeed a great achievement by IAF standards, however the former Gujarat energy minister must be turning at the bottom of Ganges for as long as he lived after his helicopter strayed into Pakistan during war, he attributed his life to the PAF. Sir @Muradk has disclosed rather revealing details of this incident.....the poor Mantris having to remove their white Dhotis and wave them out of their helicopter.
As they saying goes, boards don't hit back but bullets kill, alas where IAF takes pride in the duck shoot of the Atlantic but when the PAF is in the air and sometimes the mere mention of it, the results are much different and realistic.


The cheapest kill of 1971 war has been well documented by Kaiser Tufail in his book on the India / Pakistan air wars and also in his Aeronaut blog. It showed how the ingenuity and fast thinking of a Pakistani radar operator caused panic at the IAF station Amritsar resulting in the loss of a Gnat fighter aircraft of the IAF.

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/cheapest-kill.html

However it has now emerged that some years later in the period of Kargil hostilities, the IAF suffered a double mishap as it tried to respond to a PAF threat of air violation, however the second loss could have been avoided had the Indian air controller carried out the proper practice.
In August 1999, the India / Pakistan hostilities were at a peak, a PN Atlantique aircraft had been shot down by India and the tension on the borders was at knife edge. There were constant air patrols, each side was monitoring the other around the clock resulting in aircraft being constantly scrambled. One of these resulted in two IAF MiG-21s being scrambled from an airfield in Indian occupied Kashmir, in the heat of the moment, while baring down the runway, No 2 MiG got caught in the leaders slipstream and began losing control and it's pilot proceeded to eject, the Indian air controller watching in horror panicked and gave the call for eject without referring to No2, the MiG leader who was by this time airborne assumed that the call is for him so he also promptly proceed to eject.
Whether an air violation by the PAF materialised on that day or not but it certainly caused the IAF the loss of two aircraft.

18th August 1999

Indian A. F. MiG-21Bis Srinagar AFB Take Off from Srinagar AFB No.2 in a two aircraft take off. Pilot was too close to No.1 and lost control in the slipstream and crashed after take off. ATC called out for him to eject. No1 in the formation responded to the wrong call and ejected Flying Officer G S Dhindsar
18th August 1999

Indian A. F. MiG-21Bis Srinagar AFB. Take Off from Srinagar AFB No.1 in a two aircraft take off. Responded to a misguided 'Eject' Call given by the ATC to Flying Officer Dhindsar who was the No.2 Flight Lieutenant K S Deswal

 

[volatile]

Lol.Rules of engagement world wide define military aircraft as any aircraft with a potential to carry weapons and operated by armed forces or paramilitary of a nation.

Was it hunting Indian submarine or was it on bombing mission ?

 

[Hamza913]

He's not just rude but despicable, I have never seen so many members complaining about an individual's behaviour and if we all adopted the same manner this forum will lose all it's reputation.
He calls my thread sh**, yet he never fails to prove that he's the biggest dung beetle out there.

Exactly, he only gets away with it because he's a "professional".

Again like I said, intent and capability. You can call your failures and give a 100 reasons. There have been 2 instances where we did something with intent.

1. Bangladesh - You can say Quetta and Rawalpindi and what not. Dhaka, was Pakistani territory. We took it and carved a new country out of it. Intent backed with capability.

2. Siachen - You tried. We did. Intent backed with capability.

Pakistani attempts are always high in intent and zero capability or capacity.

This is the difference. While you think we do not have the capability, the truth is that we do not have the intent, yet. The days when we have the intent, there is nothing you chaps have been able to do it. You lost Siachen and you lost East Pakistan.

1. Bangladesh was going to get independence no matter what you did, India just made it happen faster. I would have liked to see India do it without Bangladeshi support, or at the beginning of the conflict before we started struggling. Not to mention India does not own Bangladesh, trying to help someone get independence and trying to conquer a land are two different things. In 1947, we managed to take over 30,000 square miles from India (Kashmir) and we actually managed to own it. That's just as big an achievement, if not a bigger one.

2. Siachen is disputed, we still have some troops there and your guys still haven't been able to advance (neither have we, but my point still remains). Also, you waste a lot more resources there for a war that will never happen.

The truth is, if India had the capability, it would have attacked Pakistan in 1999, 2002, and 2008. But it didn't, so it does not have the capability. Don't give me rubbish about intent because we both know how much animosity India holds for Pakistan.

 

[Gregor Clegane]

Was it hunting Indian submarine or was it on bombing mission ?

It may have been on a anti shipping mission.
Few weeks before that it was almost shot down by ins godavari

 

[Joe Shearer]

It may have been on a anti shipping mission.
Few weeks before that it was almost shot down by ins godavari