What is a British Muslim?

[Indus Pakistan]

There's no such thing as British ethnicity. Being British is a nationality, an ethnicity would be English, Scottish, or Welsh.

I know. When I said "British" it meant those ethnic groups considered native to the British Isles in the sense derived from a very long association with the land. This includes English, Welsh, Scots and Irish. All rest are of recent vintage.

So if your father was Pakistani migrant then you are British-Pakistan. This is perfect match of "British" (a secular denominator) and "Pakistan" (a secular denominator). Similarly you could be British-Indian, British-Cypriot, British-Turk, British-Bangladeshi. All these capture a persons secular definition.

However when try top use British and Muslim as identity it does not work. It is a oxymoron. If you can dump your ethnic identity (Cypriot, Bangladeshi, Turk etc) then why do you hold on to British? If "Muslim" can supercede your fathers ethnic origins why then place such store on "British"?

If somebody asks me who I am - I proudly say "British-Pakistani". The first in respect to where I live and second in respect of my parents origins. I am not going to hide my parents orgins behind the tag "Muslim".

 

[Divergent]

I know. When I said "British" it meant those ethnic groups considered native to the British Isles in the sense derived from a very long association with the land. This includes English, Welsh, Scots and Irish. All rest are of recent vintage.

So if your father was Pakistani migrant then you are British-Pakistan. This is perfect match of "British" (a secular denominator) and "Pakistan" (a secular denominator). Similarly you could be British-Indian, British-Cypriot, British-Turk, British-Bangladeshi. All these capture a persons secular definition.

However when try top use British and Muslim as identity it does not work. It is a oxymoron. If you can dump your ethnic identity (Cypriot, Bangladeshi, Turk etc) then why do you hold on to British? If "Muslim" can supercede your fathers ethnic origins why then place such store on "British"?

If somebody asks me who I am - I proudly say "British-Pakistani". The first in respect to where I live and second in respect of my parents origins. I am not going to hide my parents orgins behind the tag "Muslim".

Nope. All governmental documents or any kind of application/forms bring 'Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Indian/Polish/African' etc under 'ethnicity' section. It won't ask are you a 'British' so and so, it will ask 'what is your Ethnicity?'. However British is association to the Country in hand with whatever Faith.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

There's no such thing as British ethnicity. Being British is a nationality, an ethnicity would be English, Scottish, or Welsh.

Exactly
British= Nationality/national identity
White= Race
English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish etc = Ethnic groups/Ethnic identity

British Muslim is someone who has got British nationality and follow Islam irrespective of which ethnic or race they from..I dont see any complication in there

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Nope. All governmental documents or any kind of application/forms bring 'Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Indian/Polish/African' etc under 'ethnicity' section. It won't ask are you a 'British' so and so, it will ask 'what is your Ethnicity?'. However British is association to the Country in hand with whatever Faith.

This is from UK census category. I would tick C2 - (box 2). Which is Pak-British.

At least the UK government applies the logic I am pushing here. There is no "Muslim" category at all.

 

[Hamza913]

I know. When I said "British" it meant those ethnic groups considered native to the British Isles in the sense derived from a very long association with the land. This includes English, Welsh, Scots and Irish. All rest are of recent vintage.

So if your father was Pakistani migrant then you are British-Pakistan. This is perfect match of "British" (a secular denominator) and "Pakistan" (a secular denominator). Similarly you could be British-Indian, British-Cypriot, British-Turk, British-Bangladeshi. All these capture a persons secular definition.

However when try top use British and Muslim as identity it does not work. It is a oxymoron. If you can dump your ethnic identity (Cypriot, Bangladeshi, Turk etc) then why do you hold on to British? If "Muslim" can supercede your fathers ethnic origins why then place such store on "British"?

If somebody asks me who I am - I proudly say "British-Pakistani". The first in respect to where I live and second in respect of my parents origins. I am not going to hide my parents orgins behind the tag "Muslim".

Yeah that makes sense to me. British is nationality, so is being Pakistani. Being a Muslim is an ideology, you don't really mention it with nationalities as those have nothing to do with Islam.

I usually just say I'm a Pakistani, and only bring up my British side when people are confused as to why I sound as English as fish and chips.

I mean, I do have more in common with British people than Pakistanis because I was born and raised there (and returning in a couple of days), but when people say where are you from they typically want to know my brown side.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I sound as English as fish and chips.

lol.

when people say where are you from they typically want to know my brown side.

Which is why I say British-Pakistani. The latter alludes to my orgins which are cast on my fact. I don't hide my orgins with "Muslim" only to then embrace "British". The two don't fit.

 

[Hamza913]

lol.

Which is why I say British-Pakistani. The latter alludes to my orgins which are cast on my fact. I don't hide my orgins with "Muslim" only to then embrace "British". The two don't fit.

Yeah, I mean, even if you value your Muslim identity like I do, if you say you are Pakistani in any way, shape or form, 9 times out of 10 people are going to assume you're a Muslim. Where as saying you're Muslim doesn't really tell people you're from Pakistan, since 1 in 4 people across the world follow Islam.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Well, there are many definitions. First could be those whose ethnic origin is from the British isles and who reside there. Second could be those who hold the legal and secular definition of having citizenship of Britain by virtue of birth or naturalisation but may not have ethnic roots to these isles.

Britania Romanus.

This side of Hardian's Wall all British Romanus, on the other barbarians. A 1000 years independence after that, mixed with rising sophistication of landed gentry... sailing out and believing to be the inheritor of Grecco-Roman Civilisation, those thousand plus old monasteries... input, genetic and otherwise, of Vikkings and Francs... from middle English to Baccon's opus magnum... Britian of Rule Britania.... Noblesse Oblige... garnders and shopkeers...

Yes, Britain is and has been evolving. Difficult to pinpoint, yet so easy to say... British.

Monty Python? Mr. Beans? Roller or Bentley? Classes... lower and upper. Horses and Greyhounds..betting?


When we visit Britain of WW2 and in its aftermath... It is still the largest empire on paper... yet in 47' the biggest colony needs to handed over. In the 50's starts the journey towards Britain from the former colonies...

We need to place ourselves in the minds of local Britons... just less than a decade ago they were masters and now have to share workplaces.... oh, you... ****... oh, you indian... etc. etc. Echos can still be heard.. first and second generation knows only too well. Not gone away yet... EDL.


And yes, the people migrated there because they were needed... you know the rest.... 60's, 70's and 80's... from sexual revolution to Iron Lady era...and those famous strikes... as a byproduct Political correctness became vouge. British Pakistani, British indian, British Bangladeshi... classifications. What purpose did it serve?

From 90's onwards enormus effort has been exerted against racism and gender discrimination... many laws have become the norm... it advanced the Human Condition in Europe.

Yet, why... is there a need from the state to classify people because of their ethnicity? Not racist per se...but a distinct feeling of keeping the host state's cultural identity separate, perhaps?

So, what is British? How can a non White can become British then? Fish n Chips? Sheperd's Pie? Train Spotting?

Why do people feel the need to have separateness? Both the host society and migrants...

The indians have built there temples and do their festivals in the UK... they have kept their indianness alive.

The muslims have built their mosques and Pak traditional way is alive.

All communities have their distinct cuisines... thus creating more separateness. Same with TV channels and movies.

So, what is to be British then for migrants?

Jews remained jews all over Europe despite being there for what... 1000 years?

So, yes, I do agree that there shall remain this separateness.

Even a child from mixed marriage will always be seen first as the foreign race and then as British. When colour is involved... halflings, hybrids...mixed whatever you want to call it.

Is it only racial bias or something anthropolgical...say like humans are tribals at their core despite their education and whatnot.... it needs analysis.

I do believe that religion should not be carried on the sleeves... must remain a deeply personal affair between the maker and the made... a discourse of solitude.. Paradise Lost.

As we enter a great Unfolding Cycle.. I do percieve accentuation of 'otherness' will increase. Both good and bad thing really.

Apart from all the horrors and abuse of colonisation... one good thing that emerged from it is that world became noisy village and will keep going in that direction. Humanity will become a Hybrid down the road... never totally but significantly.

Now enough of this boring post, over to you!

 

[Vassnti]

Why not ask the fundamental question... What is it that makes someone British???
SPF

Until recently I would have said if you European, cant cook like the Italians, dance like the Spanish, make love like the French, work like the Germans or fight like the Irish, you must be British but then they left.

 

[Clutch]

Which is why I question this whole "British-Muslim" thing that is so rampant these days. I mean if you can so easily dump your ethnic national identity then what goves holding on to the newly acquired British tag.

Jewish Americans... very successful and proud... and prevalent identification amongst the group here. Good for them.

Even secular Jewish people proudly call themselves Jewish American... I have many close friends as such.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Jewish Americans

You should know this if you have any acquintenance with Jews. They are a ethno-religious groups similar to Sikh. Meaning religion is closely connected with race. Not entirely but very closely. For example almost all Sikhs are Punjabi. Similarly most Jews share similar ethnic heritage because they are very endogenous. Mostly to be Jew you need to have a ancestor who is a Jew. Also Jews do not go around proselytizing and are very insular. Thus to be a Jew or even Sikh carries certain ethnic affiliation.

The flip side and to underline this fact is Israel. A Jewish homeland. As you know they will accept any Jew from any place as applicant to Israeli citizen. On the other hand Islam or Christianity are not affiliated to ethnic groups but are open to anybody from anywhere. Thus Christianity or Islam do not have a ethnic group that seems to articulate them but both are world, repeat world religions thus making the "British Muslim" nonsense.

If that logic was employed then in UK we would have British Christians, British Hindus, British Muslims, British Buddhists, British agnostics, British athiest. Same for USA. Instead you have Italian-Americans, Iranian Americans, Hispanic Americans, Filipino Americans, Black Americans despite all being Chrisrtian Americans.

 

[Clutch]

You should know this if you have any acquintenance with Jews. They are a ethno-religious groups similar to Sikh. Meaning religion is closely connected with race. Not entirely but very closely. For example almost all Sikhs are Punjabi. Similarly most Jews share similar ethnic heritage because they are very endogenous. Mostly to be Jew you need to have a ancestor who is a Jew. Also Jews do not go around proselytizing and are very insular. Thus to be a Jew or even Sikh carries certain ethnic affiliation.

The flip side and to underline this fact is Israel. A Jewish homeland. As you know they will accept any Jew from any place as applicant to Israeli citizen. On the other hand Islam or Christianity are not affiliated to ethnic groups but are open to anybody from anywhere. Thus Christianity or Islam do not have a ethnic group that seems to articulate them but both are world, repeat world religions thus making the "British Muslim" nonsense.

If that logic was employed then in UK we would have British Christians, British Hindus, British Muslims, British Buddhists, British agnostics, British athiest. Same for USA. Instead you have Italian-Americans, Iranian Americans, Hispanic Americans, Filipino Americans, Black Americans despite all being Chrisrtian Americans.

I highly doubt that.... Because the difference between the ashkanazi and sphardic is huge... and even amongst the afro Jewish tribes. I doubt over their extensive history they have maintained a racial purity.. They are just as multicultural as any other group... this is very different than what is portrayed

However, their affinity of thinking of themselves as "the tribe" is more a brotherhood bond... similar to the so called "Muslim ummah" bond...
The more religious type of Muslims will continue to identify themselves as hyphenated xyz-muslim .... The similar ummah of Jewish brotherhood issue... however... liberal Muslims may choose not to... that's the liberal Muslim personal choice.... Things move on... you can call yourself Ango- British or indian-british or just British - British... it's a mute point really...

@Kaptaan

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Ango- British or indian-british or just British

Why should I do that? My dad came to these shores as a Pakistani, on a Pakistani passport from Pakistan on Pakistan Internaltional airlines. So no thanks. I will be British (in recognition of the fact that I live and am citizen of Britain) and Pakistani ( in recognition of my heritage). That is why I come to this forum. Note "Pakistan Defence not "Muslim Defence".

I refuse to give up my heritage to be subsumed into a groups of Nigger converts, Somalis, Nigerians, Bengalis. Certainly the Turks, Cypriots in UK refise to be bandied into this "ummah" rubbish. They have pride in their parents heritage.

 

[StraightShooter]

Isn't "British Muslim" an oxymoron as Islam does not believe in nation states but only in Islamic brotherhood and Nation of Islam (Ummah)?

In US every citizen is prefixed with the country of Origin followed by the word American. Only native Americans have "American" as the prefix.

Irish American
Italian American
Pakistani American
Indian American
Egyptian American

American Indian (natives)

How can a Muslim tag be racist? Firstly, Islam is not a race. It is a religious movement.

If Irish-American is acceptable and not deemed as racist why is British Muslim not acceptable?

Note that British is prefix while Muslim follows it.

Will calling them Muslim British be better?

 

[Clutch]

Why should I do that? My dad came to these shores as a Pakistani, on a Pakistani passport from Pakistan on Pakistan Internaltional airlines. So no thanks. I will be British (in recognition of the fact that I live and am citizen of Britain) and Pakistani ( in recognition of my heritage). That is why I come to this forum. Note "Pakistan Defence not "Muslim Defence".

I refuse to give up my heritage to be subsumed into a groups of Nigger converts, Somalis, Nigerians, Bengalis. Certainly the Turks, Cypriots in UK refise to be bandied into this "ummah" rubbish. They have pride in their parents heritage.

Read my post... call yourself just British. Or Popsicle-British or chocolate-british.... It's OK... what ever tickles your fancy..

I'm just saying there will be others who chose to hyphenate themselves... I'm not saying it's right or wrong... I'm just saying it's just the way it is...