What can bring India and Pakistan closer

[Omar1984]

SAARC is a failure. The only reason Pakistan joined SAARC was because Pakistan wanted closer relations with Bangladesh, Nepal, and Sri Lanka.

Pakistan is now looking more towards its North and West and unfortunately India is trying to do the same.

India doesn't even like the existence of Pakistan. Watch Indian media and you will hear their 10 steps on how to destroy Pakistan, go to their forums you will see them dreaming of taking over Pakistan and integrating Pakistan with India. (And in their forums they even make propaganda against Islam, and no indian Muslim defends his religion in Indian forums).

Many Indians are very unrealistic, they think if they continue their propaganda then somehow they can succeed in their akhand bharat dream. India will have more of a chance of integrating Bangladesh into India, oh yes even Bangladesh doesnt want to form a union with India.

International borders between Pakistan and India is here to stay and borders between the two countries will always remain closed. Line of Control is an entirely different topic.

As I said many times in this forum, who needs India when Pakistan is literally connected to China, Central Asia, Middle East, and now Europe by railway.

 

[Peshwa]

^^^^ Omar1984.....

Do you have any Indian friends or have you ever interacted with an Indian outside of this forum??
Please be honest.....your posts are extremely "hate filled" and I just want to know what we can do to change your perception......or if India/Indians have wronged you in any way.....

Not that I care about what you have to say personally, but I have close Pakistani friends and trust me none of them share views even remotely close to yours....and the only things I can think of are

1) that your knowledge of India and Indians is based on our media and what has been fed to you by Pakistan and its media......
Or
2) That you're on the extreme side of things......somewhat close to the fanatics we have here in India who are Anti-India, Anti-Muslim
Or
3) Your're an uneducated individual who doesnt know any better.....But I highly doubt that

So then why the hate....??

The point of the thread is to bring Pakistan and India closer and look for ways to achieve it.......and none of your posts are even remotely close to giving us a solution.....

Its not in my nature to try to impress anyone.....especially someone who doesnt really care much for my kind.....But in this case I genuinely feel that Indians and Pakistanis have a lot in common and it is only us....the average Indian and Pakistani that can make a difference and bring peace to our nations......

 

[Machoman]

Nothing, Only Kasab can if he tell the truth, that he is Indian!

 

[MastanKhan]

^



Hi,

I believe most of us have indian colleagues---friends some of them. The only problem that I face is that indians always want to be right when they are discussing their issues---from their perspective.

But then they also want to be right when they discuss it from pakistans perspective.

The problem is that since india started to walk and talk and think and act and make money like the americans---they think they have become 'americans'.

Hot pursuits---cold start---blame game for everything----

You know how bad situation between india and pakistan is---just one more mumbai type attack and both of us will be doomed.

My indian colleagues are living in a dream world---they think that they would come out of the nuclear attack smelling like roses and like nothing would happen to them---I don't know how they realized that fact or who told them so----.

With a 30 % loss of troops and equipment any army considers its millitary division doomed---out of action----.

As I mentioned in one of my other posts on another thread---a death of 20---50000 people in a city with the population of 1 million and above will totally destroy that city from within----death and destruction will create terror and chaos---terror and chaos creates anarchy amongst the people---shortage of food, water, medicine, shelter will create will create mini wars amongst the civilian popultation---people will kill and devouver each other----.

This scenario will be repeated in pakistan as well---we are not immune either---there will be the doomsday scenario on both the sides---.

Indians can only think like americans---but they don't have the similiar civil defence resource as that of america---in civil defence resource---indians are no better than the paks---.

I am really really surprised what are the think tanks doing in india---are they oblivious of the truth that is facing them right in the face.

The issues must be resolved---there is no other way around it.

 

[advaita]

No, I believe you know them as Tamils. Sikhs, Naxalites, Assamese, Seven Sisters, etc, etc.

You have no real idea about the strength of these communities with rest of the Indians (It was only Pakistanis that discarded the ways of their fore-fathers - of course your choice is to be respected)

Here you go.

Tamils - Sir Tambis are the guys that gave us Panchyatna/Shanmat still being practiced by all Hindus which also forms the basis for tolerance in present Indian society.

Sikhs - the guys that acted as buffer to protect us from western infection.

Naxalites have reasonably strong middle class urban sympathy/support. I do sympathize, even though I dont support all of it. And while you think this is a weakness that will break India, we think this a natural aspiration of tribals that will force a healthy change in our society.

Seven Sisters - Ok lets talk about specifically about Nagas that you guys think are succeptible to Pakistani propaganda. What you forget is that Mahabharat mentions Arjuna marrying Princess Uloopi of the Nagas and leaving his son with them (Matriarcal society).

etc, etc. - in your dreams.

You will, of course, deny it, but in real life conversations, Indians are much more honest about the very real threat of separatist movements in various parts of India.

The threat is surely there but what makes you think that we are giver uppers.

There are no mass protests in Azad Kashmir. Pakistan does not need to station an occupation force of 400,000 thugs to keep the local population subdued. It does not play charades with sham elections held under 400,000 guns.

What is the possibility that Pakistan .. occupied ..kashmiris are oppressed by the country that has so many AK47s that it is a cottage industry (1 for every 8 or thereabout)

 

[advaita]

Nothing, Only Kasab can if he tell the truth, that he is Indian!

Yup and so is Zardari

Oh I forgot Mush, Zia, TTP, Nawaz, Altaf, Beg and Gul. After all they did what.....

 

[vsdoc]

^

Hi,

I believe most of us have indian colleagues---friends some of them. The only problem that I face is that indians always want to be right when they are discussing their issues---from their perspective.

But then they also want to be right when they discuss it from pakistans perspective.

The problem is that since india started to walk and talk and think and act and make money like the americans---they think they have become 'americans'.

Hot pursuits---cold start---blame game for everything----

You know how bad situation between india and pakistan is---just one more mumbai type attack and both of us will be doomed.

My indian colleagues are living in a dream world---they think that they would come out of the nuclear attack smelling like roses and like nothing would happen to them---I don't know how they realized that fact or who told them so----.

With a 30 % loss of troops and equipment any army considers its millitary division doomed---out of action----.

As I mentioned in one of my other posts on another thread---a death of 20---50000 people in a city with the population of 1 million and above will totally destroy that city from within----death and destruction will create terror and chaos---terror and chaos creates anarchy amongst the people---shortage of food, water, medicine, shelter will create will create mini wars amongst the civilian popultation---people will kill and devouver each other----.

This scenario will be repeated in pakistan as well---we are not immune either---there will be the doomsday scenario on both the sides---.

Indians can only think like americans---but they don't have the similiar civil defence resource as that of america---in civil defence resource---indians are no better than the paks---.

I am really really surprised what are the think tanks doing in india---are they oblivious of the truth that is facing them right in the face.

The issues must be resolved---there is no other way around it.

Hi mastan, the danger of a nuclear war starting comes from your country my friend, not mine. We can start a new thread to discuss why.

That said, most of us are aware of what a nuclear showdown would mean, regardless of who starts it.

Point is, if pakistan thinks that they can hide behind the nuclear bogey and keep messing around with India, they have a rude awakening coming.

And that awakening has already started.

Now Pakistan does not know which front to fight on, and as an indian I can only sit back and smile.

Internal violence and insurgency throughtout the country, with the radicals literally running the show ...... the concept of "pakistan" being limited to urban pockets.

The US administration and military holding all the strings that make your puppet government dance, with a vice like grip on your economy and your military.

Balochistan well on the way to breaking away ..... and with it all the oil and natural resources it holds.

Afghanistan waiting to extract its pound of flesh for the mess you guys have contibuted to in your neighbouring Islamic country - over decades.

The world recognising Pakistan as the epicenter of terrorism and world opinion on all fora becoming distinctly hostile, including the UN you guys love running to (or should I use the past tense in the current scenario?).

Complete lack of nationalistic leadership, as espoused by all of you from time to time, as the rich few get richer, their sons and daughters packed away to the US/UK/Australia/Canda to study and settle down, while the poor masses get poorer and even more restive.

And if all this were not enough, you are fighting for a lost cause since the past 6 decades with India, which continues going its merry way and growing by leaps and bounds, while nonchalantly keeping your ambitions in check.

So please dont try and scare us with the mutual destruction bogey my friend ..... that concept is past its sell-by-date today.

There are other ways of fighting a hostile neighbour and defanging him, and we have learned our lessons well.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Thebignag]

So please dont try and scare us with the mutual destruction bogey my friend ..... that concept is past its sell-by-date today.

There are other ways of fighting a hostile neighbour and defanging him, and we have learned our lessons well.

Cheers, Doc

Sab ko malum hai, kiske bandook mey kitne goli hai....... Pakistan today need to worry of implosion under it own contradictions.... The threat of same is much higher than an explosion nuclear or otherwise.... The nuclear begging bowl will not last forever...

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Hi mastan, the danger of a nuclear war starting comes from your country my friend, not mine. We can start a new thread to discuss why.

That said, most of us are aware of what a nuclear showdown would mean, regardless of who starts it.

Point is, if pakistan thinks that they can hide behind the nuclear bogey and keep messing around with India, they have a rude awakening coming.

And that awakening has already started.

Now Pakistan does not know which front to fight on, and as an indian I can only sit back and smile.

Internal violence and insurgency throughtout the country, with the radicals literally running the show ...... the concept of "pakistan" being limited to urban pockets.

The US administration and military holding all the strings that make your puppet government dance, with a vice like grip on your economy and your military.

Balochistan well on the way to breaking away ..... and with it all the oil and natural resources it holds.

Afghanistan waiting to extract its pound of flesh for the mess you guys have contibuted to in your neighbouring Islamic country - over decades.

The world recognising Pakistan as the epicenter of terrorism and world opinion on all fora becoming distinctly hostile, including the UN you guys love running to (or should I use the past tense in the current scenario?).

Complete lack of nationalistic leadership, as espoused by all of you from time to time, as the rich few get richer, their sons and daughters packed away to the US/UK/Australia/Canda to study and settle down, while the poor masses get poorer and even more restive.

And if all this were not enough, you are fighting for a lost cause since the past 6 decades with India, which continues going its merry way and growing by leaps and bounds, while nanchalantly keeping your ambitions in check.

So please dont try and scare us with the mutual destruction bogey my friend ..... that concept is past its sell-by-date today.

There are other ways of fighting a hostile neighbour and defanging him, and we have learned our lessons well.

Cheers, Doc

I read this came to a conclusion. Indians only know the Indian media version of Pakistan. Sooner they get over this, the longer they will remain a country not eaten by it's own several dozen insurgencies and US lap dancing.

 

[Thebignag]

I read this came to a conclusion. Indians only know the Indian media version of Pakistan. Sooner they get over this, the longer they will remain a country not eaten by it's own several dozen insurgencies and US lap dancing.

Pakistan engaged US for over half a century. Mostly on US terms. We have been engaged India only recently. Thankfully on our terms. Lap dance or not. An Indian citizen is reasonably sure that when he leaves home in the morning, he will return home, without being shot and bombed, by his fellow citizen. Insurgencies. Yes we have insurgencies. I grew up in one such province and belong to one such community, supposedly carrying out insurgency. If you are hope on such insurgencies will take india to it's doom, my friend you are grossly mistaken. But, if your strategic experts too bank on the same, you need to send them back to schools...

 

[IceCold]

Hi mastan, the danger of a nuclear war starting comes from your country my friend, not mine. We can start a new thread to discuss why.

That said, most of us are aware of what a nuclear showdown would mean, regardless of who starts it.

Point is, if pakistan thinks that they can hide behind the nuclear bogey and keep messing around with India, they have a rude awakening coming.

And that awakening has already started.

Now Pakistan does not know which front to fight on, and as an indian I can only sit back and smile.

Internal violence and insurgency throughtout the country, with the radicals literally running the show ...... the concept of "pakistan" being limited to urban pockets.

The US administration and military holding all the strings that make your puppet government dance, with a vice like grip on your economy and your military.

Balochistan well on the way to breaking away ..... and with it all the oil and natural resources it holds.

Afghanistan waiting to extract its pound of flesh for the mess you guys have contibuted to in your neighbouring Islamic country - over decades.

The world recognising Pakistan as the epicenter of terrorism and world opinion on all fora becoming distinctly hostile, including the UN you guys love running to (or should I use the past tense in the current scenario?).

Complete lack of nationalistic leadership, as espoused by all of you from time to time, as the rich few get richer, their sons and daughters packed away to the US/UK/Australia/Canda to study and settle down, while the poor masses get poorer and even more restive.

And if all this were not enough, you are fighting for a lost cause since the past 6 decades with India, which continues going its merry way and growing by leaps and bounds, while nanchalantly keeping your ambitions in check.

So please dont try and scare us with the mutual destruction bogey my friend ..... that concept is past its sell-by-date today.

There are other ways of fighting a hostile neighbour and defanging him, and we have learned our lessons well.

Cheers, Doc

Well the post wasnt really directed towards me but the highlighted part caught my attention. You know Indians thinking of creating 71 again and breaking Pakistan, well sorry to disappoint you but its nothing more then a pipe dream. You see even the US has started to realize the grave error it was committing in Afghanistan by letting India expand, we were telling them all along that it is not just us that will be effected, US to will suffer the brunt. Finally some sense is prevailing.

Also it was very convinent of you to blame the nuclear war phobia on Pakistan, what you forgot to mention was who's responsible first to start a nuclear arms race in sub continent and second threatning Pakistan to either talk of kashmir and get a nuclear bomb in return. The 10 steps that your media very often talk about to satisfy egos of many sicko-maniacs about destroying Pakistan is not hidden either and does not help in lowering the phobia rather add fuel to it.
In short it is your kind the reason of trouble in the region from China to Pakistan, srilanka, heck even BD that you so called liberated in the name or protecting lives are all troubled by this very nature of your kind. The sooner you realize this the better it would be for the whole region.

 

[vsdoc]

Well the post wasnt really directed towards me but the highlighted part caught my attention. You know Indians thinking of creating 71 again and breaking Pakistan, well sorry to disappoint you but its nothing more then a pipe dream. You see even the US has started to realize the grave error it was committing in Afghanistan by letting India expand, we were telling them all along that it is not just us that will be effected, US to will suffer the brunt. Finally some sense is prevailing.

Also it was very convinent of you to blame the nuclear war phobia on Pakistan, what you forgot to mention was who's responsible first to start a nuclear arms race in sub continent and second threatning Pakistan to either talk of kashmir and get a nuclear bomb in return. The 10 steps that your media very often talk about to satisfy egos of many sicko-maniacs about destroying Pakistan is not hidden either and does not help in lowering the phobia rather add fuel to it.
In short it is your kind the reason of trouble in the region from China to Pakistan, srilanka, heck even BD that you so called liberated in the name or protecting lives are all troubled by this very nature of your kind. The sooner you realize this the better it would be for the whole region.

My friend Balochistan is on its way to breaking away, from what we see and/or hear, on its own, without any outsider's help, based directly on the history Pakistan and Balochistan share since 1947 (I written about it and debated it with some of you guys enough on another thread so wont rehash it here or it will simply derail the thread).

Coming to your 10 step program, Indians have a long and rich tradition of science, maths, etc. We like to break a problem down (pardon the hostile sounding pun) into its simplest component parts. Hence you hear about 10 step programs and not the slow death of the over-complicated (to an Indian mind) 1000 cuts. (Indian tongue firmly in indian cheek sir)

If I am not mistaken, India's nuclear program has been going on for decades and was also focused on harnessing nuclear technology for peaceful civilian energy needs ..... from as way back as Indira Gandhi's times.

It was only after Pakistan got too frisky (minor issue), on the back of a fast growing bigger threat with a hugely nuclear and roguely-proliferative China (major issue) that India decided to go officially nuclear (mind you, we did it on our own, unlike you).

So dont hog the credit of forcing our nuclear hand ..... the nuclear arms race with you guys is just a inevitable consequence of India's defence needs against the Chinese dragon. You guys necessarily had to follow, or risk losing the part of our Kashmir which you took by conventional force and surprise in 1947 ..... in addition to a lot else depending on nuclear India's mood and the sort of regime ruling at the time.

That uneasy truce of course has opened far better and less violent avenues for India to engage Pakistan from a moral high ground in the global perception.

As I said before, there is more than one way to peel an orange.

Cheers, Doc

 

[EjazR]

Going back to the topic, this link has some interesting perspectives from an Indian perspective on engaging Pakistan.

Would be interested to hear some comments from the more professional members of the forum..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/34967-pakistan-need-smart-diplomacy-op-ed.html

 

[IceCold]

My friend Balochistan is on its way to breaking away, from what we see and/or hear, on its own, without any outsider's help, based directly on the history Pakistan and Balochistan share since 1947 (I written about it and debated it with some of you guys enough on another thread so wont rehash it here or it will simply derail the thread).

More wet dream. Dude i have seen what you debated and everytime you brought the breaking of baluchistan, your so called half baked facts were thrashed out by senior members. So how about you rejoin the school and have a history class before having more wet dreams. And last time i checked India too is on a verge of breakup considering the number of struggles going on there out matches Pakistans by a long short.

Coming to your 10 step program, Indians have a long and rich tradition of science, maths, etc. We like to break a problem down (pardon the hostile sounding pun) into its simplest component parts. Hence you hear about 10 step programs and not the slow death of the over-complicated (to an Indian mind) 1000 cuts. (Indian tongue firmly in indian cheek sir)

Last time we checked it was India that sponsored terrorism into a soverign part of another country and i remember correctly that was way before we decided to put 1000 cuts on India. And by the way before you give more undue credit to your kind it the muslims that have the long tradition of science and maths and not the other way round.

If I am not mistaken, India's nuclear program has been going on for decades and was also focused on harnessing nuclear technology for peaceful civilian energy needs ..... from as way back as Indira Gandhi's times.

Peaceful purpose or so you lied to the rest of the world. Even your missile program was so called peacefull space exploration until one day you guys decided how about it...

It was only after Pakistan got too frisky (minor issue), on the back of a fast growing bigger threat with a hugely nuclear and roguely-proliferative China (major issue) that India decided to go officially nuclear (mind you, we did it on our own, unlike you).

Yes yes India does every thing own its own like its so called indigenous missile program indisguise of peaceful exploration, the indigenous nuclear program, the indigenous LCA which despite of all the help from around the world still could not make it and if i miss something out form the huge list of indigenous developments let me know.
One more thing get your facts straight India went officially nuclear in 74 when it first tested the so called peace full nuclear at pokhran and it was long before Pakistan as per you got frisky.

So dont hog the credit of forcing our nuclear hand ..... the nuclear arms race with you guys is just a inevitable consequence of India's defence needs against the Chinese dragon. You guys necessarily had to follow, or risk losing the part of our Kashmir which you took by conventional force and surprise in 1947 ..... in addition to a lot else depending on nuclear India's mood and the sort of regime ruling at the time.

More rant.

That uneasy truce of course has opened far better and less violent avenues for India to engage Pakistan from a moral high ground in the global perception.

Dont talk about global perceptions because gobal perceptions according to you guys start and end with the US and we have seen the moral high gounds, dont even get me started there.

As I said before, there is more than one way to peel an orange.

Whatever suits the Indian flavor.

 

[IceCold]

Going back to the topic, this link has some interesting perspectives from an Indian perspective on engaging Pakistan.

Would be interested to hear some comments from the more professional members of the forum..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/34967-pakistan-need-smart-diplomacy-op-ed.html

The article hardly deserves comments. If this is what would be an Indian perpective of engaging Pakistan with labelling it from being a Fractured state to the breaking of pakistan and ultimate doom day scenario being presented, its better you stick to the current one. What Indians often forget is that Pakistan isnt their back yard as suggested by the author and India is hardly a super power to consider Pakistan its back yard. This is exactly the kind of Indian attitude which does not let peace prevail in the region because India just cannot keep it self from not pointing its nose where it doesnt belong(71,baluchistan, Srilanka, BD) which result into spreading more chaos in the region and hence the destablization.
If India is indeed so worried about the region and its so called back yard, how about instead of just claiming the moral high house, actually deliver one and give Kashmiries what they want and what India promised in the 1st place in the UN.
Unless India does not address the root cause of the problem, unfortunately we will be hanging in the same balance even after sixty plus year.