What can bring India and Pakistan closer

[EjazR]

@IceCold

I'm surprised by your comments, did you read the entire article or just stop and the scenarios bit?

The main premise is around changing Pakistan from fractured to friendly state, from an Indian perspective. And also keep in mind that this was in February when the situation seemed more dire than today.

Just quoting the scenario that they recommend India should work for:

Finally, and unlikely as it seems today, there still exists a possibility of a Friendly Pakistan. It would be rooted in Mohammed Ali Jinnah’s original design for the state: Muslim, Moderate and Modern. It is this Pakistan that an Indian grand strategy must systematically work towards constructing.

 

[muse]

MastanKhan


An absolutely super, super post, unfortunately Indian friends cannot see merit in it - in fact so "American" do our Indian friends imagine themselves that it may be best to deal with them on the surface as if dealing with America.

Whatever the Indian may imagine himself as, it should not cause much concern, in real terms, to Pakistan - Pakistan India relations are best served by a Pakistan that is not only economically strong but militarily powerful and diplomatically insulated against an India that is resigned never to accept partition and never to acknowledge that Muslims of the sub-continent are a nation on to their own - we share a great history, heritage and blood with our Indian friends, and we are however; aware of ourselves in ways which diverge from the way our Indian friends have become aware of themselves as a nation.

In the end, the only things which can bring Pakistan and India closer is a economically vibrant and militarily powerful Pakistan.

EjazR quoting the lead article suggests a Muslim, Moderate, and modern Pakistan - I could have done without the "modern" bit, perhaps "enlightened" works better for me - most all of Pakistan's ills can be laid at the feet of Modernity, from radical socialits/populist politics and definitions of "democracy" to the entirely modern ideas that animate it's "fundamentalist" religious community, to the kinds of modern ideas realized in it's "mercantile" (read monopolistic/cartelized) economics.

What kind of India best brings Pakistan and India together? Perhaps a less "Americanized" India, one which is focused on solving problems internally, come to think of it, it's what we have suggested as prescription for Pakistan - curious that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Hi mastan, the danger of a nuclear war starting comes from your country my friend, not mine. We can start a new thread to discuss why.

That said, most of us are aware of what a nuclear showdown would mean, regardless of who starts it.

Point is, if pakistan thinks that they can hide behind the nuclear bogey and keep messing around with India, they have a rude awakening coming.

And that awakening has already started.

Now Pakistan does not know which front to fight on, and as an indian I can only sit back and smile.

Internal violence and insurgency throughtout the country, with the radicals literally running the show ...... the concept of "pakistan" being limited to urban pockets.

The US administration and military holding all the strings that make your puppet government dance, with a vice like grip on your economy and your military.

Balochistan well on the way to breaking away ..... and with it all the oil and natural resources it holds.

Afghanistan waiting to extract its pound of flesh for the mess you guys have contibuted to in your neighbouring Islamic country - over decades.

The world recognising Pakistan as the epicenter of terrorism and world opinion on all fora becoming distinctly hostile, including the UN you guys love running to (or should I use the past tense in the current scenario?).

Complete lack of nationalistic leadership, as espoused by all of you from time to time, as the rich few get richer, their sons and daughters packed away to the US/UK/Australia/Canda to study and settle down, while the poor masses get poorer and even more restive.

And if all this were not enough, you are fighting for a lost cause since the past 6 decades with India, which continues going its merry way and growing by leaps and bounds, while nonchalantly keeping your ambitions in check.

So please dont try and scare us with the mutual destruction bogey my friend ..... that concept is past its sell-by-date today.

There are other ways of fighting a hostile neighbour and defanging him, and we have learned our lessons well.

Cheers, Doc

Mastan Khan:

You could not hope for a better example than this to illustrate the point you made:

"The only problem that I face is that indians always want to be right when they are discussing their issues---from their perspective.

But then they also want to be right when they discuss it from pakistans perspective."

The insurgency in Baluchistan .. will likely go the way the past ones have. Despite the upsurge in violence and all that, nothing has come of it - development projects continue to be announced, the frequency of violence remains about the same (in fact lower in the past several weeks), no mass uprising despite some of the nationalists making some extremely inflammatory statements and really no demographic legs to stand on.

The Pashtun are closely vying with the Baluch for the title of the largest ethnic group in Baluchistan, and may perhaps even hold if you include the large Pashtun refugee population from Afghanistan.

Now what else - the Taliban insurgency? There was an oft repeated comment (wishful thinking) by Indian commentators that the Taliban insurgency represented (finally) a coming to head of the 'Pashtunistan' movement - it wasn't just 'religious extremists', these commentators were convinced that the insurgency was the outcome of 'Punjabi domination' expressing itself as a separatist movement.

Of course recent events have shattered that particular Indian wet dream along with also making clear that the religious insurgency has found opposition from massive amounts of Pakistanis, Pashtun and non-Pashtun alike. Taliban gains have been steam rolled by the Pakistani military in Malakand division along with Bajaur, Mohmand and recently Khyber, with the GoP and Military waiting for an opportune moment to launch a ground offensive in S Waziristan, where the militants have been severely degraded through air and artillery strikes, and their top leadership decimated and divided.

So that addresses the internal instability that Indians were 'sitting back and smiling about', no doubt the smiles fading away as the joy from seeing Pakistan destabilizes vanishes at every setback suffered by the insurgents in Pakistan.

And coincidentally, we see an uptick in violence in Kashmir - the most recent being four Indian occupation soldiers, including two officers, gunned down by a handful of freedom fighters when surrounded. The Naxals in India constitute the gravest threat to India admits the Indian PM, violence there continues unabated, yet some can only 'sit back and smile' at what Pakistan faces.

MK, you hit the bulls eye with that comment.

 

[deep.ocean]

MastanKhan


An absolutely super, super post, unfortunately Indian friends cannot see merit in it - in fact so "American" do our Indian friends imagine themselves that it may be best to deal with them on the surface as if dealing with America.

Whatever the Indian may imagine himself as, it should not cause much concern, in real terms, to Pakistan - Pakistan India relations are best served by a Pakistan that is not only economically strong but militarily powerful and diplomatically insulated against an India that is resigned never to accept partition and never to acknowledge that Muslims of the sub-continent are a nation on to their own - we share a great history, heritage and blood with our Indian friends, and we are however; aware of ourselves in ways which diverge from the way our Indian friends have become aware of themselves as a nation.

In the end, the only things which can bring Pakistan and India closer is a economically vibrant and militarily powerful Pakistan.

EjazR quoting the lead article suggests a Muslim, Moderate, and modern Pakistan - I could have done without the "modern" bit, perhaps "enlightened" works better for me - most all of Pakistan's ills can be laid at the feet of Modernity, from radical socialits/populist politics and definitions of "democracy" to the entirely modern ideas that animate it's "fundamentalist" religious community, to the kinds of modern ideas realized in it's "mercantile" (read monopolistic/cartelized) economics.

What kind of India best brings Pakistan and India together? Perhaps a less "Americanized" India, one which is focused on solving problems internally, come to think of it, it's what we have suggested as prescription for Pakistan - curious that.

Instaed of Militarily Powerful Pakistan, Political Stable, Democratic Pakistan can bring both nation closer and will make this region stable. Militarily powerful pakistan means more Military Ruler, More Mumbai Like attacks and increased insurgency in Kashmir.. and final result would be more drastic....

 

[dabong1]

That said, most of us are aware of what a nuclear showdown would mean, regardless of who starts it.
Point is, if pakistan thinks that they can hide behind the nuclear bogey and keep messing around with India, they have a rude awakening coming.
And that awakening has already started.

What did you do to pakistan during the mumbai attacks......nothing...zilch.
Wake up!you cant do nothing to pakistan but rant and rave and turn all red with anger.

Now Pakistan does not know which front to fight on, and as an indian I can only sit back and smile.
Internal violence and insurgency throughtout the country, with the radicals literally running the show ...... the concept of "pakistan" being limited to urban pockets.

You indians are so behind the times.......the pak army has kicked a55 in swat and go t rid of the terrorist and hunted down the top ten.
Its only mopping up thats taking place now.......keep smiling

The US administration and military holding all the strings that make your puppet government dance, with a vice like grip on your economy and your military.

Keep dreaming......where getting all these arms and weapons for free from the US so we can use them on india.
We use them and they use us.

Balochistan well on the way to breaking away ..... and with it all the oil and natural resources it holds.

You indians have dozens of freedom movements that want to break away from india.......i wonder how many attacks the Maoist in india have carried out compared to the so called BLA?

Afghanistan waiting to extract its pound of flesh for the mess you guys have contibuted to in your neighbouring Islamic country - over decades.

That will be the taliban that will be out to "extract its pound of flesh" from you indians when they take over afghanistan again.

The world recognising Pakistan as the epicenter of terrorism and world opinion on all fora becoming distinctly hostile, including the UN you guys love running to (or should I use the past tense in the current scenario?)

Its only india that and some supporters on the WOT that think that pakistan is the epicenter of terrorism but the rest of the world does not.....are they any sanctions on pakistan for being the "epicenter of terrorism".......its just a soundbite that makes you indian wet your pants.

Complete lack of nationalistic leadership, as espoused by all of you from time to time, as the rich few get richer, their sons and daughters packed away to the US/UK/Australia/Canda to study and settle down, while the poor masses get poorer and even more restive

What like india?

And if all this were not enough, you are fighting for a lost cause since the past 6 decades with India, which continues going its merry way and growing by leaps and bounds, while nonchalantly keeping your ambitions in check.

How the world laughs at india and keeps patting you on the head....sure your a superpower

So please dont try and scare us with the mutual destruction bogey my friend ..... that concept is past its sell-by-date today.

When a nuke goes off then we will ask if its " past its sell-by-date".

There are other ways of fighting a hostile neighbour and defanging him, and we have learned our lessons well.

Like you did with china

 

[dabong1]

Instaed of Militarily Powerful Pakistan, Political Stable, Democratic Pakistan can bring both nation closer and will make this region stable. Militarily powerful pakistan means more Military Ruler, More Mumbai Like attacks and increased insurgency in Kashmir.. and final result would be more drastic....

We have had democratic govt and they have stuck to same line on kashmir as military govts.

When will you understand that kashmir is the reson why attacks take place on india and things turn sour with pakistan and it wont stop until a deal is reached.
You can have all the trade deals and people to people exchanges but its all cosmetic with out the kashmir issue being solved it will stay the same from the pakistan side.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Thanks Muse / Agno and others----it is the same response again from our indian colleagues---.

They, again want to be right about their assessment of pakistan---like baluchistan falling away---.

I know it has been eight years since the war on terror---but when the pak millitary decided to take down swat and surrounding areas----it took them merely 30 plus plus days to take out the insurgents.

Those insurgents were better trained, better weapons, more committed and were in larger numbers than bugti, marri and mengal tribesmen.

The commented post says , ' we hear baluchistan is going to break away '---and my response to that is----that is what we are telling you----not to believe in those comments.

Neither does the baluch movement have numbers behind them nor the resource to put in a large army to fight the millitary----the most they can do is guerilla action---a bomb here a bomb there---that is it.

Bottomline is that pak and indians can be acquintances---but never friends---there is too much bad blood amongst the hindus, muslims and sikhs for centuries.

It only needs one Radovan Karagzic to light up the flames and put the sub-continent on fire-----we live with so much hatrde and distrust of each other, that we never share and remember the good things that we ever shared----I guess we never had any good things to share---I believe that there is hardly a common ground that we have that we can look upto as our saving grace---.

We have different gods---we pray different, our religions are different, we eat different, our heroes are different, our social structure is different, some of our languages are written different even some of them are of similiar origin, we have myriads and myriads of things that are different----but there is only one thing amongst a few that is common amongst most of us----some of our ancestory is of common stock---is that enough to get us together----I doubt it very much.

Also---the rhetoric of pak being a failed state and ready to break also started back in this thread---isn't that contrary to what we decided to talk over here---.

What does a poor man have to lose---nothing much----what does a rich neighbour have to lose---a lot------at this stage---india has analyzed that the loss it would face in a confrontation with pakistan, will not be much---they may recuperate real fast with not much damage----. It is a gamble that indians are made to believe---but are they ready to take it head on---do they have the gumption and the resource---I doubt it----otherwise they could have taken us out in the last 2 oppurtunites that came their way.

If you decided that millitarily you can't take us out---then come sit and talk----because with all this back bitting---you are making our reslove stronger---the weapons sytems that we delayed / stopped purchasing after 2001 sanctions came off, are back on the procurement list---we don't need to match you one on one---we only need 60---80 percent competitive resource.

As long as india is living with that kind of mentality----there is no peace---india has no peace with any of its neighbours----look at its size and wealth---it is humungous----but then look at its mentality and approach to local conflicts----it is like you are dealing with someone who has yet to understand their place and position in this world.

 

[Peshwa]

MastanKhan


An absolutely super, super post, unfortunately Indian friends cannot see merit in it - in fact so "American" do our Indian friends imagine themselves that it may be best to deal with them on the surface as if dealing with America.

Whatever the Indian may imagine himself as, it should not cause much concern, in real terms, to Pakistan - Pakistan India relations are best served by a Pakistan that is not only economically strong but militarily powerful and diplomatically insulated against an India that is resigned never to accept partition and never to acknowledge that Muslims of the sub-continent are a nation on to their own - we share a great history, heritage and blood with our Indian friends, and we are however; aware of ourselves in ways which diverge from the way our Indian friends have become aware of themselves as a nation.

In the end, the only things which can bring Pakistan and India closer is a economically vibrant and militarily powerful Pakistan.

EjazR quoting the lead article suggests a Muslim, Moderate, and modern Pakistan - I could have done without the "modern" bit, perhaps "enlightened" works better for me - most all of Pakistan's ills can be laid at the feet of Modernity, from radical socialits/populist politics and definitions of "democracy" to the entirely modern ideas that animate it's "fundamentalist" religious community, to the kinds of modern ideas realized in it's "mercantile" (read monopolistic/cartelized) economics.

What kind of India best brings Pakistan and India together? Perhaps a less "Americanized" India, one which is focused on solving problems internally, come to think of it, it's what we have suggested as prescription for Pakistan - curious that.

Muse and Mastan Khan.....

Let me put my best foot forward and ask.....Can you dive deeper into the "Americanization" of India???

For the benefit of the Indian members, please give us a few examples.....of how "Americanized" we have become.....
And please use examples that have influenced the nation or how India's foreign policy has been "Americanized" thus causing ripple effects around it.....

This would help us understand the problem.....

 

[SandsofTime]

Muse and Mastan Khan.....

Let me put my best foot forward and ask.....Can you dive deeper into the "Americanization" of India???

For the benefit of the Indian members, please give us a few examples.....of how "Americanized" we have become.....
And please use examples that have influenced the nation or how India's foreign policy has been "Americanized" thus causing ripple effects around it.....

This would help us understand the problem.....

By Americanization he means having an imperialist and hegemonic attitude. India is only a regional power as of now so obviously its ambitions are limited to its surroundings. But on your path to increasing power you guys are following in the footsteps of American style power projection.

 

[muse]

Quoting Mastankhan:

since india started to walk and talk and think and act and make money like the americans---they think they have become 'americans'.

Hot pursuits---cold start---blame game for everything----

I would add that the lead article is itself a reflection of this idea - The onus, the responsibility for the state of relations between Pakistan and India is of course on Pakistan and ofcourse India will rescue Pakistan and "fashion" Pakistan to better serve Indian interests - Yawn.

Like our American friends may have learned, the external is a reflection of the internal, perhaps this lesson will not be lost on our Indian friends.

 

[Peshwa]

Muse.....To be honest, you're clearly jumping to conclusions here and speaking for us Indians.......

But I leave that to you....

Now I yet fail to see any hard evidence or actions that indicate that we have "started thinking that we are Americans".....
The only statement that is made is "since india started to walk and talk and think and act and make money like the americans---they think they have become 'americans'.....

And this doesnt seem like anything more than an opinion......

"Hot pursuits.....cold start....blame game for everything" dont provide much crdibility to your argument either.....

Cold Start is a doctrine that we adopt to manage external threats to our homeland....what does this have to do with "Americanization"??
Blame game....I mean if we are erred, what else are we to do?? If a crime was committed against you, wouldnt you blame the person you hold responsible?? How else does one get justice in this world?? Or are u suggesting we should take up arms and attack for every little thing?? Its a peaceful, diplomatic option dont you think??? Yes it might irritate the accused, but are we going to compromise our national interest for it?? NO!!!

Please give me more examples....

 

[Peshwa]

By Americanization he means having an imperialist and hegemonic attitude. India is only a regional power as of now so obviously its ambitions are limited to its surroundings. But on your path to increasing power you guys are following in the footsteps of American style power projection.

Ok thats a start.....but India having imperialistic attitude is nothing more than an accusation that Pakistani's use to justify the non-existant threat from India at all times.....the "Akhand Bharat" rhetoric

Remember....we have what Pakistan wants .....NOT the other way around....

Well.....With our growing size, we need to manage our relations accordingly.....One does not become powerful to be held hostage by someone weaker than them......
And what is so wrong about being powerful?? Is that a crime...Dont Pakistani's aspire for it??
Just because its not visible in the near future does not justify Pakistan to make such accusations....

Remember, in the case of Afghanistan, we have used "soft power" and generosity to influence....NOT the might of our forces....that's just one example......

Please give me an example of where we have shown impreialistic or land grabbing attitude other than accusations from people of countries we have existing disputes with??

 

[Khajur]

Most ppl agree that kashmir is the biggest sticking point between india and pakistan.

but in my opinion ,the biggest problem with pakistan is the trust deficit betwee the two countries.Its no secret that two nation along with its ppl consider each other as rivals at best and sworn enemies at worst of the situations.

Now why is that so??

Pardon me ,but i can only give an unpopualr indian point of view.And i'sure u guys wanna know true indian feeling however uncomfortable that might be.

problem(1)" india hate pakistani motive and desire to sieze kashmir by direct military action and prolong proxy war. Moreover we indians just cant tolerate the fact that pakistan has been too audacious to even think in those lines."

I genuinely believe that if had not see wars of 65 which was in many ways a prelude to war of 71 ,and had pakistan stuck to peaceful negotiations all along ,the kashmir problem might have been solved and even can dare to say that atleast the kahsmir valley could have become part of pakistan by now with india's consent.



problem(2.) " pakistan ganging up with china,a country that attacked us while we were most vulnerable and still contemplating some hostile move incase of future china india conflict, a wicked thought clerly resonated here and other pakistani forums. "

Its bad move that pakistan prefered to play parley with china just after sino indian war in 1963 and donated parts of Aksi chin to china. Instead,had pakistan came out strongly aganist china in support of india in 62 ,our relations would've been much different today.


problem(3). " This relentless effort to bleed india by thousand cuts ,be it by through terrorism inside india,serial bomb blasts with ISI support and recently even more bold but grusome and damning attacks of 26/11 beside the overwhelming zeal in promoting fake currency, fueling communal strife in india."

All these things making pakistan look like a villian for common indians and more difficult of the GOI to take any softer approach with pakistan.

U see guys,

We have been trying solve kashmir problem for many decades.It needs peaceful dialogue.
WE also know it very well negotiation means give & take...making compromises ,but india cant make compromises /sacrifies with a hostile pakistan ,can it??
With enemies ,u dont negotiate, u can only go to war with.


If pakistan wants to solve kashmir and closer relation with india,then it must stop doing what it had been doing so unsuccessfully for all these time.Just do the exact opposite ,i bet it'll see far more success not only in kashmir ,but all in other disputes it has with india.

 

[muse]

Mastan

Unfortunately, The Indian think they are more than our military match and given the mentality, the need to feel big - we will continue to have deaf ears.

Had the Indian any real confidence in the overwhelming superiority of his military, they would have gone for adventures already - but Pakistan do not have to match the Indian weapon for weapon, system for system, man for man, all we have to do is ensure that there can never be superiority - and so we must live with a India that will never have accepted partition as a irreversible reality and a India that does not believe in the sovereign equality of nations, so what's different or going to be different?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Not all serbs hated the bosnians----as a matter of fact majority would have lived with the muslims just like any other neighbour.

In the same manner---majority of indians would like to live in peace with pakistan and have the issues resolved----majority of the pakistanis would like to do the same---but untill and unless the bigger and stronger brother realizes and understands that there is give and take involved---and make the policy makers believe in it---there is nothing that can bring in india and pakistan closer.

There are Radovan Karadzics in india who would never want that to happen----( tragically the hindus cannot dig the bones of their dead as they crematize the dead---and please don't take it as an insult )---otherwise---they would have unburied the bones out of the graves and waved them around as victims of atrocities by the muslim empires of the past to spread more hatred amongst the different ethnic groups.

The indian govt and the pak govt have to work hand in hand to bring peace----but then india has seemingly the support of 'others' who don't want to see the partnership grow---.

When india sold its soul to israel---and was made to believe in its invincibility by the weapons systems that were offered to it---all bets were off the table.

Muse---I think that pakistan needs only to be as close as 80 % of their capability on the home turf---.

To the original poster of this thread---yessir---we would love to have peace---but it cannot be on the principal of 'MY WAY'---.