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We Don’t Seek Benevolence, But Don’t Malign us Either – Part I

.One of my mother's distant relative's son also died in cross border shelling from Afghanistan..2-3 months ago and he was very young.. He got married one and a half yr ago and had a son of six months.. what abt his family now..if he wasnt eligible for pension? Pension is good bcoz u get an amount each month...for survival, a family needs money each month..esp for children...they have monthly expenses..like for school fees and other expenses..i am not saying tht pension amount should be much..even though small but it shd be there for each family....

In the IA in such cases the NOK gets the last salary drawn with increases in DA etc as announced by the Govt till the age the soldier would have retired. After which she gets regular family pension.

Also, his children get admission to the nearest Army School.

There must be similar arrangements in PA as well.
 
Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, every time there has been a change of government in Pakistan. :D

Oh please VCheng. You are in the US, be happy with your life and we all wish you the best.

We living in Pakistan are not as vulnerable as NY Times, Washington Post, CNN etc might make you believe which are your primary source of information regarding Pakistan. I am a Pakistani holding a Canadian Passport, completed my Undergrad from Canada, worked there for a year for a Fortune 500 company and moved back after 5 years. I have not for a day regretted my decision to come home, sure i get frustrated sometimes with the system here but at the end of the day its my job to help fix the system as a Pakistani. Believe me i am not the only Pakistani, i know dozens of Pakistani's whom after completing their education are coming back home. No doubt there are more business opportunities here as the market is not as developed, but there is also an element of patriotism among us.

Your bias regarding the Army is quite disgusting. I can understand why Xeric got angry at you. Even after providing reasons backed by evidence and facts, you are still blaming the Army for the wrong doings in Pakistan. The only reason why the Army is popular among the people of Pakistan is because the Army cares for the people. The Army steps in when the civilian government fails. The only reason the Army is providing welfare projects in Balochistan and FATA is because the civilian government is no where to be seen. I am sure they would be more than happy to hand over all the responsibility to the civilian government, but they cannot as the politicians are failing us once more.
 
Oh please VCheng. You are in the US, be happy with your life and we all wish you the best.

We living in Pakistan are not as vulnerable as NY Times, Washington Post, CNN etc might make you believe which are your primary source of information regarding Pakistan. I am a Pakistani holding a Canadian Passport, completed my Undergrad from Canada, worked there for a year for a Fortune 500 company and moved back after 5 years. I have not for a day regretted my decision to come home, sure i get frustrated sometimes with the system here but at the end of the day its my job to help fix the system as a Pakistani. Believe me i am not the only Pakistani, i know dozens of Pakistani's whom after completing their education are coming back home. No doubt there are more business opportunities here as the market is not as developed, but there is also an element of patriotism among us.

Your bias regarding the Army is quite disgusting. I can understand why Xeric got angry at you. Even after providing reasons backed by evidence and facts, you are still blaming the Army for the wrong doings in Pakistan. The only reason why the Army is popular among the people of Pakistan is because the Army cares for the people. The Army steps in when the civilian government fails. The only reason the Army is providing welfare projects in Balochistan and FATA is because the civilian government is no where to be seen. I am sure they would be more than happy to hand over all the responsibility to the civilian government, but they cannot as the politicians are failing us once more.

Ah..my dear..they are afraid to death to take over the responsibility.

We cant stay there for ever, nor does we want to.

Let's again take the example of Chamalang, the plan was to establish the project, get the belligerents (Lunnis and Marris) on the table, resolve their issues/disputes and then handover the project to the civilians, but guess what, even now that the project is up and running and that we are in need of manpower for employment elsewhere, we cant sapre any as all the efforts to transfer the responsibility to the govt has failed.

The civilian bureaucracy is afraid because, one they know that these guys (tribals) wont listen to them, if they had, the dispute could have been over already and not lying unresolved for the past 40 years. Two, they know that they wont be able to maintain and run the project as efficiently and transparently as military has been doing. Three,they simply dont want to work.
 
Ah..my dear..they are afraid to death to take over the responsibility.

We cant stay there for ever, nor does we want to.
Let's again take the example of Chamalang, the plan was to establish the project, get the belligerents (Lunnis and Marris) on the table, resolve their issues/disputes and then handover the project to the civilians, but guess what, even now that the project is up and running and that we are in need of manpower for employment elsewhere, we cant sapre any as all the efforts to transfer the responsibility to the govt has failed.

The civilian bureaucracy is afraid because, one they know that these guys (tribals) wont listen to them, if they had, the dispute could have been over already and not lying unresolved for the past 40 years. Two, they know that they wont be able to maintain and run the project as efficiently and transparently as military has been doing. Three,they simply dont want to work.

the army is bugging out of swat.
 
Oh please VCheng. You are in the US, be happy with your life and we all wish you the best.

We living in Pakistan are not as vulnerable as NY Times, Washington Post, CNN etc might make you believe which are your primary source of information regarding Pakistan. I am a Pakistani holding a Canadian Passport, completed my Undergrad from Canada, worked there for a year for a Fortune 500 company and moved back after 5 years. I have not for a day regretted my decision to come home, sure i get frustrated sometimes with the system here but at the end of the day its my job to help fix the system as a Pakistani. Believe me i am not the only Pakistani, i know dozens of Pakistani's whom after completing their education are coming back home. No doubt there are more business opportunities here as the market is not as developed, but there is also an element of patriotism among us.

Your bias regarding the Army is quite disgusting. I can understand why Xeric got angry at you. Even after providing reasons backed by evidence and facts, you are still blaming the Army for the wrong doings in Pakistan. The only reason why the Army is popular among the people of Pakistan is because the Army cares for the people. The Army steps in when the civilian government fails. The only reason the Army is providing welfare projects in Balochistan and FATA is because the civilian government is no where to be seen. I am sure they would be more than happy to hand over all the responsibility to the civilian government, but they cannot as the politicians are failing us once more.

Just hope more of the Pakistani talkers and finger pointers actually follow your example. That is the only solution to how we can make any progress otherwise not having an army will not make an iota of difference.
 
Each army officer and soldier deserves a house by government, be it at nominal price or not but they do deserve to be paid for the service...

the problem arises when Army becomes a land grabbing mafia.... after the operation Swat, people of SWAT faced a similar situation when their lands and agricultural fields and fruit gardens were grabbed by Army in the name of establishing a useless cantonment...

another recent instance is Skasar (road from noshera village to chakwal all is cordon off by military its a beautiful landscape).

there is no doubt that military generals are part of land grabbing mafia, however, plea of ordinary soldier is justified, they should be adjusted, which I also believe is true in general as well for any government employee.


Rest of the article is nonsense.
 
The question is do you think if the military budget is cut in half will the situation turn around? I can see the chaos it will entail if that happens just because that is the only organization of its size that actually kept its functional discipline. Ask yourself honestly if you see it like I do being in Pakistan. Lets not pull a fareed zakaria here.

No, I do not see the situation turning around simply by reallocation of budgets. The problems are far deeper than just money. It is how the money is used by the entire system.

not even for the betterment?

Whose "betterment"? And who gets to decide what is good? If you are saying that the ends justify the means, that since what the Army is doing is with the best of patriotic intentions, it is justified in going beyond the Constitution as is sees fit, then please understand how this slippery slope has lead to a steady downslide for the whole nation.

Oh please VCheng. You are in the US, be happy with your life and we all wish you the best.

Thank you. Are you trying to say that I should leave DefPk? I am sure you can find lots of people who would support that; it is only a matter of time, I know. Till then, please allow me to speak my mind. :D

We living in Pakistan are not as vulnerable as NY Times, Washington Post, CNN etc might make you believe which are your primary source of information regarding Pakistan. I am a Pakistani holding a Canadian Passport, completed my Undergrad from Canada, worked there for a year for a Fortune 500 company and moved back after 5 years. I have not for a day regretted my decision to come home, sure i get frustrated sometimes with the system here but at the end of the day its my job to help fix the system as a Pakistani. Believe me i am not the only Pakistani, i know dozens of Pakistani's whom after completing their education are coming back home. No doubt there are more business opportunities here as the market is not as developed, but there is also an element of patriotism among us.

Ah yes, the tired argument that only "patriots" come back. Please do consider that it could easily be argued that people, having created the security of a "backup" western nationality, are back in Pakistan to mint money by taking advantage of the corrupt system there, not because of the element of patriotism, but because of the element of opportunism. I am sorry if that sounds blunt, but it is not far off from the truth.

Most "patriots" are vociferous simply because they are benefiting, directly or indirectly, from the gravy train of corruption that is Pakistan these days. Another group is the "patriots-until-they-are-successful-in-leaving", plus a small "patriots-because-they-can't-leave", and my favorite, the "tried-but-failed-to-leave-therefore-bitterly-anti-western patriots".

Please specifically note that I am not saying that you, or anyone else, is in one category or the other, and I do not mean any disrespect.

Your bias regarding the Army is quite disgusting. I can understand why Xeric got angry at you. Even after providing reasons backed by evidence and facts, you are still blaming the Army for the wrong doings in Pakistan. The only reason why the Army is popular among the people of Pakistan is because the Army cares for the people. The Army steps in when the civilian government fails. The only reason the Army is providing welfare projects in Balochistan and FATA is because the civilian government is no where to be seen. I am sure they would be more than happy to hand over all the responsibility to the civilian government, but they cannot as the politicians are failing us once more.

Xeric gets angry because he is simply not used to criticism, which is quite natural for a military man, and thus quite understandable. I was quite amused when he simply ignored the specifics of his "starving soldiers in Swat" sob story I asked about, among other things, above and went off in other tangents.

It is very easy to try and ward off criticism by labeling people like me traitors, or simply by banning me from the Forum. Another convenient tactic is to justify patently wrong steps, for example the CSS quota: it is only four seats, one per province. Why should it be there in the first place? The responses are either it is the civilian governments fault, or I am a disgusting Army hater, thereby deflecting the real issue.

I agree that the Army is popular in Pakistan for many good reasons. I am only pointing out that much is also wrong that needs to be rectified. Attacking or silencing me may feel good, but it does nothing to change the situation on the ground.

You claim that the direness of the situation is overplayed by the Western media, and I am am too stupid to see through that. I assure you I have a wide variety of sources, and I am not all that stupid either.

And I am just as much a patriot as you or Xeric or anyone else here.

Just hope more of the Pakistani talkers and finger pointers actually follow your example. That is the only solution to how we can make any progress otherwise not having an army will not make an iota of difference.

You are correct that Pakistan needs more doers and less talkers. I will say that Pakistan is making some progress, but it is simply not happening at a rate fast enough to ward off disaster, unless drastic steps are taken, and taken soon.
 
Xeric gets angry because he is simply not used criticism, which is quite natural for a military man, and thus quite understandable.

And that's why i am here on this forum answering 'mundane and stupid' queries of yours since the last 4 years?

Military-men are not to criticism and that's why he has been writing articles and posting it here so that readers can comment on it?

Did you hit your head somewhere or what?

I was quite amused when simply ignored the specifics of his "starving soldiers in Swat" sob story I asked, among other things, above and went off in other tangents.

You are a liar.

1) i was not referring to starving soldiers in 'Swat', even though they starve too, but my statements was concerning the actions in Balochistan, and may be you were high when you read my reply or probably you missed it altogether. ref post # 41

2) i gave a detailed reply as what i meant by my statements in post # 41. i told you how military soldier's 'starve' when military employ own resources to fill in the void created by the govt, but if you are dumb enough to even miss such a detailed reply, nobody other else is to be blamed.

It is very easy to try and ward off criticism by labeling people like me traitors, or simply by banning me from the Forum.

Oh...here comes the victim card.

It only shows your nativity, nothing else.

Another convenient tactic is to justify patently wrong steps, for example the CSS quota: it is only four seats, one per province. Why should it be there in the first place? The responses are either it is the civilian governments fault,

Pardon me, but what's wrong with the reply?

i gave you the details and told you that the law/rule/provision can be changed ANYTIME if the civilian govt wants, and now if they arent changing it, then whose fault it? Army's? May be safriz was right.

People say blasphemy law is wrong, but if the govt still doesnt remove it, then by your definition people should get blamed for that too?

Seriously Cheng, are you feeling ok today? May be it was not a steak that you had taken last night?

and I am a disgusting Army hater,

Oh yes you are.

hereby deflecting the real issue.
Haha...pot calling the kettle black

Attacking or silencing me may feel good,
To much self-praise, eh?

Believe me, you dont worth it.

Had it not been for the consumption of other readers, your post and your existence, aint worth my time.
 
.............

You are a liar.

1) i was not referring to starving soldiers in 'Swat', even though they starve too, but my statements was concerning the actions in Balochistan, and may be you were high when you read my reply or probably you missed it altogether. ref post # 41

.......................

Here is your post #33:

Like constructing more roads and schools from own pocket?

Starving own soldiers so that Swatis can go to school.

Reducing office expenditure and deserting the same for Balochistanis.

Giving away a huge part of Defence Budget in aid to the effectees of 2005 Earthquack, and thus having no money to conduct more training exercises?

You clearly have no idea of what you are saying, do you?

Yes, you claimed soldiers were starved so that Swatis can go to school.

Please do carry on, Sir.
 
Just curious!

Are there instances in Pakistan where former military personal taking up politics and getting democratically elected , in any province?
 
Anybody remembers 1990s crisis in sawat?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/tnsm.htm

In 1990s there was an armed uprising for imposing Shariah Law in sawat,and Pakistan Army tackled it well,because there was no foreign or Political Intervention then...
Now PA cant do their job Properly due to intervention from all over...

Just curious!

Are there instances in Pakistan where former military personal taking up politics and getting democratically elected , in any province?

many.............one example is Air marshal Asghar Khan....
 
Here is your post #33:



Yes, you claimed soldiers were starved so that Swatis can go to school.

Please do carry on, Sir.

And here`s my post 41:

Haha...i think you area true victim of your own thoughts.

It was you who said:

So then why the rhetorics?

It's the Constitutional authority by virtue it undertake such initiatives.

The Army has a fully functional Engineering department for its military use, that is also capable of undertaking civilian tasks. It is the responsibility of the Army to assist its civilian counterparts whenever they are stuck. No private or govt run organization in Pakistan has the manpower or the engineering equipment and qualified Engineers more in numbers than the Army.

What's your guess, how many engineers does an engineering firm has at one time inside Pakistan? Now compare this with a single Engineers Unit that alone have more than 15 Civil Engineers.

Compare it with Electrical and Mechanical (EME) Battalion that alone has more than 15 Electical Engineers.

Compare it with a Signal Battalion that alone has 5-7 Telecom engineers, 5-7 Software Engineers and 5 -7 IT experts at any one time.

Compare this with an Artillery Regiment which alone has 2-3 MSc Metallurgy at any point of time.

Though all of these experts are required to any Army, but not all are being utilized during peace.So if the Constitution tells you to assist the civilians and if we do so, would that be 'bad'??

What's wrong in if the govt is short on hands and asks military engineers to perform engineering tasks? This way, atleast the govt dont have to pay extra to engineering forms.Now ofcourse that does not mean that every engineering wok inside Pakistan is undertaken by military engineers, but when everyone refuses to go construct a bridge in Swat or a school there, it is the military that has to do it. Savvy?

Really not that hard to understand, Cheng.

Or may be you are confused about the role of Army in aid of civil power as per our Constitution, why dont you go check it out?



Cheng, you know i am guud at providing specifics as opposed to you who ask vague questions.

Here:

When Government of Balochistan (the mighty CM himself) wrote to Commander Southern Command, Quetta asking, rather ordering him to assist his Commissioners, Deputy Commissioners and Mines and Minerals Department of Balochistan in the Chamalang Coal Mines Projects, first by clearing the area from land mines, than by providing security to the labors and locals from Khair Bhakhash Marri and than ofcourse as Army has a credibility, he also asked the Army to resolve the dispute between Lunni and Marri Tribes, as they just wont listen to the civilian bureaucracy, as per the Constitution of Pakistan that you seem so unaware of, the GoB was supposed to pay for the fuel, wear and tear of military equipment and axillary expenditures being done by the military during the development process through a thing known as IS expenditure.

But guess what, just as we were in mid way, the mighty civilians showed their inability to recoup the expenditure done by the military. A point came where the CM felt sorry and his ilks decided to wind up the project, thereby closing the LARGEST COALMINES IN SOUTH ASIA which had already remained closed for the past 50 years.

Guess what Army said, we will do it from our side and you can recoup us latter when the project is up. The MoI, MoI etc got into work, President and the PM sanctioned the move and the project succeeded.

The result: 50000 Balochistanis got job, a Jungle was lit up through electricity, those who were hurling stones at military and police became milioners overnight, peace prevailed, 500 plus Pakistani citizens who were killed as a result of the dispute between Lunni (Pathans) and Balochis (Marris) were each paid 0.5 million as compsation, even though they have killed each other, not by outsiders, 5000 Balochi and Pathan students started receiving FREE education - this was Army's idea alone, we made sure that this condition is added in the contract, each year 10-15 students go to colleges like NUST out of these 5K.

Now how did the Army managed funds, well the GOC banned use of all military vehicles even for official purposes, the fuel thus saved was utilized for the project, stationary fund was cut to half, the remainder went to the project, Army rations were utilized to feed the labors who were to be fed by the govt at the beginning, leave of soldiers was curtailed so that they can work extra for the project and so on and so forth.


Now, those Marris and Lunnis dont stand with Brahamdad Bugti, they wear Pakistani flags everytime. This was supposed to be done by the govt, and you so how did it went, may be Army should also sleep so that all Pakistanis can migrate and run to the US like yourself!!


Either you are not listening or you dont have common sense. i said "Gave away a huge part of Defence Budget".

It's like WAPDA or Raillways or PIA giving away their own budget which they require to function!!

The Army is not an NGO which can donate and then recoup from charity.

Mobilink or XYZ company donating money to the effectees is a different thing than a govt organization giving away its yearly budget! Are you really so dumb or you just pretend to be one?

And this money was in addition to pays that we donated and the millions of tonnes of charity that the Army had collected from Pakistanis, and then handed over to the effectees.

The result, well we were left with no funds for training that year.

The solution:
-We kept quite (you dont find it in any newspaper),

-Called a bluff so that the evil yindoos (Indians please: not to be taken literally) dont come to know that a lot many soldiers and officers (new entrants are left untrained),

- And then the training we did, we (the trained fauj) worked thrice the amount as we would normally, because it was OK to spend more time and work over time (like one instructor who would take 200 classes a year had to take 600 this time), so that no one is left untrained. And guess what, unlike in the civilian sector we dont get paid any 'Over-time'



No you dont!


You got the complete answer in a detailed response to the same very post as seen above, where i told rather explained you how these soldiers `starve.`

But you still accused me of ignoring the question.

So, please do carry on smoking, Sir. Must be some real guud shyt that still manages to keep you aloof to the happenings around you even when more than half of the posts in this threads are yours.
 
X - jo fauj kay khalaf hai wo fauj kay khalaf hai - carry on!:police:
 
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