We Don’t Seek Benevolence, But Don’t Malign us Either – Part I

[Xeric]

To be fair, one should ALSO read this:

Military Inc.: Inside Pakistan's Military Economy: Ayesha Siddiqa: 9780745325453: Amazon.com: Books

to evaluate both sides' points of view.

Na kar yaar VCheng.

She has been pwned umpteenth times here on PDF, why dont you search it out, instead of screwing this thread?

Or to ease your confusion, you should read my first piece here: Xeric's Primer: Pakistan Army - Can’t Live With Them, Can’t Live Without Them

i was expecting better, Cheng.

I am not complaining, merely providing the facts you asked for, with the observation that such high levels of defense expenditure are simply unsustainable.

Which 'high levels' exactly?

Why U not see in my blogs that no public money/defence budget is utilized for AOHS, DHA or any other MilBus, at all.

Or are you talking about the generals expenditure required to sustain our standing Army?

Even then, these plots and houses has NO bearing whatsoever on defence expenditures, or may be have not read my article properly.

 

[VCheng]

Na kar yaar VCheng.

She has been pwned umpteenth times here on PDF, why dont you search it out, instead of screwing this thread?

Or to ease your confusion, you should read my first piece here: Xeric's Primer: Pakistan Army - Can’t Live With Them, Can’t Live Without Them

i was expecting better, Cheng.

I have read your earlier piece as well, but some of the points made in that book are quite valid too.

Which 'high levels' exactly?

Why U not see in my blogs that no public money/defence budget is utilized for AOHS, DHA or any other MilBus, at all.

Or are you talking about the generals expenditure required to sustain our standing Army?

Even then, these plots and houses has NO bearing whatsoever on defence expenditures, or may be have not read my article properly.

Defense expenditures is high at approx 25%, and the commercial activities of the associated organizations make up a major portion of the economics of the whole country.

Both are unsustainable.

 

[Xeric]

The military has a clearly defined role in the Constitution, does it not? How can one justify going beyond that, ever?

Like constructing more roads and schools from own pocket?

Starving own soldiers so that Swatis can go to school.

Reducing office expenditure and deserting the same for Balochistanis.

Giving away a huge part of Defence Budget in aid to the effectees of 2005 Earthquack, and thus having no money to conduct more training exercises?

You clearly have no idea of what you are saying, do you?

 

[Jango]

The military has a clearly defined role in the Constitution, does it not? How can one justify going beyond that, ever?

It provides benefits to it's own people, how is that going beyond the constitution?

In addition, the CMH's, the APS's, which give quality education with a nominal fee compared to other schools of same standard, the other welfare projects that Xeric mentioned and much more.

 

[Jango]

There was a srticle somewhere telling about the percentages of the defence budget of the military divided into three categories:

1-Procurement of equipment.

2-Maintenance

3-Salaries and rations etc for the manpower.

Can't quite find that article right now. Anybody know about it?

 

[airmarshal]

My dad was in FWO...while KKH was being built....I remember living in desolated remote places as a child..Once while on the road in an army jeep...a large rock fell on the jeep and luckily missed the passenger compartment and crushed the engine...We were saved by just a foot or two..Then dad used to tell us stories of colleagues falling in crevasses of glaciers,when he was stationed at loari top .. While living in timar garah Dir,i remember snakes entering our house because the area was a jungle..
You and your family dont face these dangers in Civilian jobs...So in my opinion if Army arranges certain benifits for its soldiers and families,its well justified...

Everything that the nation provides to the army is well justified. The people who are willing to lay their lives for our safety, they dont deserve anything less.

When people ask questions, they are not questioning army's role. They question because civilians dont get such facilities which army personnel get. It could be the problem of the system. But in desperation very well intentioned people do ask why such discrepancies exist.

In fact its these differences in life styles and facilities that make army personnel attitude towards civilians very condescending. I have my relatives and friends in the services. My family has stopped meeting them because of their very attitude. In fact I have stopped seeing those school time friends because their attitude seems to be condescending and they talk as if they know everything and you are just a stupid brat trying to argue with them.

Its the problem in the system of course but it breeds intolerance of each other and creates unreasonable distances where none should exist.

 

[VCheng]

Like constructing more roads and schools from own pocket?

Why? and on what authority?

Starving own soldiers so that Swatis can go to school.

Merely a sob story. Starving soldiers? Specifics please.

Reducing office expenditure and deserting the same for Balochistanis.

Another sob sotry. Specifics please.

Giving away a huge part of Defence Budget in aid to the effectees of 2005 Earthquack, and thus having no money to conduct more training exercises?

Everybody pitched in to help the recovery efforts. Your point?

You clearly have no idea of what you are saying, do you?

On the contrary, I have crystal clear understanding , thank you very much.

 

[Jango]

Why? and on what authority?

Because the government does not chip in.

It does not put in effort for rehabilitation, for construction of roads, for construction of schools and hospitals and other facilities, for construction of homes for the IDP's etc etc.

Is that the army's fault as well that govt. doesn't do it's job?

 

[airmarshal]

The government has very little left after servicing the debt and the military to provide social development to the extent that is needed.

Pakistan's defence budget must increase not decrease. At this level, we dont have enough resources, manpower and equipment to fight a one frontier war, let alone two frontier war. We should plan for a two frontier war and increase our military expenditure.

When defence equipment is procured, its for future contingencies. Do we have enough equipment to stop or defeat an attack from the shorelines?

This can only be achieved by expanding our economy. If the economy expands, there will be money for social services. Look back at Musharraf era, even if this economy is better managed, we will have money for social services.

This argument crying about defence expenditure is very lame. Pakistan has challenges in the region and we cant look the other way. The civilians mismanage the economy but we ask army to make the sacrifice thats foolish to say the least.

 

[MilSpec]

Like constructing more roads and schools from own pocket?

Starving own soldiers so that Swatis can go to school.

Reducing office expenditure and deserting the same for Balochistanis.

Giving away a huge part of Defence Budget in aid to the effectees of 2005 Earthquack, and thus having no money to conduct more training exercises?

You clearly have no idea of what you are saying, do you?

No doubt these are great sacrifices for service towards the nation, but also depicts gross failure in planning and still doesn't justify the harm done to the political fabric of pakistan. Army should be known for it's discipline; it's to protect the people not rule them.

Although this is a general statement; I can totally understand the role of pakistani army in governing role after partition due to lack of any leadership after demise of Jinnah. But the role should have been to develop good civilian leadership; instead it seems that was never done.

After 65 years of independence; Army meddling in civilian administration under the pretext of national interest or lack of strategic planning may not me desirable in my opinion.

 

[Xeric]

Why? and on what authority?

Haha...i think you area true victim of your own thoughts.

It was you who said:

The military has a clearly defined role in the Constitution, does it not?

So then why the rhetorics?

It's the Constitutional authority by virtue it undertake such initiatives.

The Army has a fully functional Engineering department for its military use, that is also capable of undertaking civilian tasks. It is the responsibility of the Army to assist its civilian counterparts whenever they are stuck. No private or govt run organization in Pakistan has the manpower or the engineering equipment and qualified Engineers more in numbers than the Army.

What's your guess, how many engineers does an engineering firm has at one time inside Pakistan? Now compare this with a single Engineers Unit that alone have more than 15 Civil Engineers.

Compare it with Electrical and Mechanical (EME) Battalion that alone has more than 15 Electical Engineers.

Compare it with a Signal Battalion that alone has 5-7 Telecom engineers, 5-7 Software Engineers and 5 -7 IT experts at any one time.

Compare this with an Artillery Regiment which alone has 2-3 MSc Metallurgy at any point of time.

Though all of these experts are required to any Army, but not all are being utilized during peace.So if the Constitution tells you to assist the civilians and if we do so, would that be 'bad'??

What's wrong in if the govt is short on hands and asks military engineers to perform engineering tasks? This way, atleast the govt dont have to pay extra to engineering forms.Now ofcourse that does not mean that every engineering wok inside Pakistan is undertaken by military engineers, but when everyone refuses to go construct a bridge in Swat or a school there, it is the military that has to do it. Savvy?

Really not that hard to understand, Cheng.

Or may be you are confused about the role of Army in aid of civil power as per our Constitution, why dont you go check it out?

Merely a sob story. Starving soldiers? Specifics please.

Cheng, you know i am guud at providing specifics as opposed to you who ask vague questions.

Here:

When Government of Balochistan (the mighty CM himself) wrote to Commander Southern Command, Quetta asking, rather ordering him to assist his Commissioners, Deputy Commissioners and Mines and Minerals Department of Balochistan in the Chamalang Coal Mines Projects, first by clearing the area from land mines, than by providing security to the labors and locals from Khair Bhakhash Marri and than ofcourse as Army has a credibility, he also asked the Army to resolve the dispute between Lunni and Marri Tribes, as they just wont listen to the civilian bureaucracy, as per the Constitution of Pakistan that you seem so unaware of, the GoB was supposed to pay for the fuel, wear and tear of military equipment and axillary expenditures being done by the military during the development process through a thing known as IS expenditure.

But guess what, just as we were in mid way, the mighty civilians showed their inability to recoup the expenditure done by the military. A point came where the CM felt sorry and his ilks decided to wind up the project, thereby closing the LARGEST COALMINES IN SOUTH ASIA which had already remained closed for the past 50 years.

Guess what Army said, we will do it from our side and you can recoup us latter when the project is up. The MoI, MoI etc got into work, President and the PM sanctioned the move and the project succeeded.

The result: 50000 Balochistanis got job, a Jungle was lit up through electricity, those who were hurling stones at military and police became milioners overnight, peace prevailed, 500 plus Pakistani citizens who were killed as a result of the dispute between Lunni (Pathans) and Balochis (Marris) were each paid 0.5 million as compsation, even though they have killed each other, not by outsiders, 5000 Balochi and Pathan students started receiving FREE education - this was Army's idea alone, we made sure that this condition is added in the contract, each year 10-15 students go to colleges like NUST out of these 5K.

Now how did the Army managed funds, well the GOC banned use of all military vehicles even for official purposes, the fuel thus saved was utilized for the project, stationary fund was cut to half, the remainder went to the project, Army rations were utilized to feed the labors who were to be fed by the govt at the beginning, leave of soldiers was curtailed so that they can work extra for the project and so on and so forth.

Now, those Marris and Lunnis dont stand with Brahamdad Bugti, they wear Pakistani flags everytime. This was supposed to be done by the govt, and you so how did it went, may be Army should also sleep so that all Pakistanis can migrate and run to the US like yourself!!

Everybody pitched in to help the recovery efforts. Your point?

Either you are not listening or you dont have common sense. i said "Gave away a huge part of Defence Budget".

It's like WAPDA or Raillways or PIA giving away their own budget which they require to function!!

The Army is not an NGO which can donate and then recoup from charity.

Mobilink or XYZ company donating money to the effectees is a different thing than a govt organization giving away its yearly budget! Are you really so dumb or you just pretend to be one?

And this money was in addition to pays that we donated and the millions of tonnes of charity that the Army had collected from Pakistanis, and then handed over to the effectees.

The result, well we were left with no funds for training that year.

The solution:
-We kept quite (you dont find it in any newspaper),

-Called a bluff so that the evil yindoos (Indians please: not to be taken literally) dont come to know that a lot many soldiers and officers (new entrants are left untrained),

- And then the training we did, we (the trained fauj) worked thrice the amount as we would normally, because it was OK to spend more time and work over time (like one instructor who would take 200 classes a year had to take 600 this time), so that no one is left untrained. And guess what, unlike in the civilian sector we dont get paid any 'Over-time'

On the contrary, I have crystal clear understanding , thank you very much.

No you dont!

 

[VCheng]

Dear Sir Xeric:

The Constitution mandates the armed forces to defending the borders. All your prose above merely shows how the Army has managed to usurp roles far beyond its mandate, no matter how you justify it.

245. Functions of Armed Forces.
(1) The Armed Forces shall, under the directions of the Federal Government, defend Pakistan against external aggression or threat of war, and, subject to law, act in aid of civil power when called upon to do so.

(2) The validity of any direction issued by the Federal Government under clause (1) shall not be called in question in any court.

(3) A High Court shall not exercise any jurisdiction under Article 199 in relation to any area in which the Armed Forces of Pakistan are, for the time being, acting in aid of civil power in pursuance of Article 245:
Provided that this clause shall not be deemed to affect the jurisdiction of the High Court in respect of any proceeding pending immediately before the day on which the Armed Forces start acting in aid of civil power.

(4) Any proceeding in relation to an area referred to in clause (3) instituted on or after the day the Armed Forces start acting in aid of civil power and pending in any High Court shall remain suspended for the period during which the Armed Forces are so acting.]

I read your Baluchistan story with interest, but where are the specifics of the STARVING soldiers you claimed? Did I miss that?

All I will say is that our points of view are quite different, and I can respect yours without changing mine, for I am quite sure that my point of view will be vindicated, sooner rather than later.

 

[Contrarian]

Xeric, i understand what you are trying to put across. That the PA has done very commendable civilian and aid tasks.

But there is a fundamental question:
As per defined norms when Pakistan was formed. PA is mandated to protect Pakistan on the borders. It is an Army.

Whether or not Balochi's get electricity is NOT something that pertains to the Army regardless whether the civilian govt provides it or NOT. It is beyond your mandate as put by VCheng.

 

[Xeric]

Xeric you have done a great job at clarifying the issue. I would like to raise a few points which I as a civilian thought about and found no answers.

1. They way your housing needs are taken care of, average Pakistanis only see you with envy. If you look around, the housing needs are tremendous and people don't have sincere government, civilian or military, to respond to such need. In despondency, common man questions about how come army personnel, who are not elites like the so called leaders, but common people have
a higher standard of living than average man on street.

2. Army is a very bureaucratic structure and honestly it does not do a good job at communicating with the nation. It has that bureaucratic, gora sahib attitude thats very stiff necked. Army need to do a better job at communicating. Modern warfare's important ingredient is communication with people. I think army needs training on this issue.

Since army has been in power several times, it has opened up undue space in which people rightly ask questions regarding its role in civilian domain. .

People need to get their brains checked, that's all i can say.

We are not supposed to do guud and then harp about it.

All that these people can do is, to moan and whine, but then who cares?

3. DHA's are prime lands in the country. Every DHA is run by retired or active duty army personnel. It rightly provides the credibility to the whole enterprise but people do see the real estate domain as army dominated. It could be wrong perception but I know few army officers who got lands and apartments at very nominal prices and sold them at market rates to make good profit. It definitely puts army personnel at an advantage and when one body is at advantage to others, it opens up door to corruption.

Though this one was to come in my next part of the series, but here goes:


Defence Housing Authority (DHA)

Concept
• Armed Forces around the world place high value on the need to fulfil socio-economic responsibilities to their personnel.
• It is essential for morale raising and for maintaining dignity/satisfaction during and after service.
• DHA have been created for the welfare of Armed Forces Personnel and to compensate Next of Kins of Shuhada, wounded and disabled persons and hence a portion of it is commercialized to make up the cost deficiency.
• DHA are self-financing organisations functioning on no loss, no profit basis.
• Government resources/public/army funds are not used for management or development whatsoever.
• 20 % quota is reserved for civil gazetted officers, senior citizens, public representatives of Federal/Provincial Legislative bodies, Journalists, disabled citizens and civilians paid out of defence.
• DHAs are private societies run, primarily, by retired military officers. A few serving officers are employed in administration.
• DHAs are one of the biggest tax payers, remitting over Rs 6.5 billion tax annually.
• Over 5000 civilians work in DHAs. Ongoing development works create over 150000 direct and indirect employment opportunities.

Procurement of Land. A1 (government) Lands of Army are not used by any DHA. All lands of DHA are procured from market through following measures:-

• Purchase Through Cash. Purchase of land on agreed upon price.
• Purchase Through Exemption. Purchase of land free of cost and develop the same giving 50% plots to the landowners.
• Combination of Cash and Exemption. Partial payment of price and suitable exemption.
• Purchase Through Award. Purchasing land through government upon payment of fixed charges.

Mechanics

Anybody including civilians can purchase plot in DHA as he/she will do from Bahria Town or Eden City. Whereas civilians can apply at any time, military personnel are barred until completion of 15 years of commissioned service, failing which they can still apply as any civilian, however their quota is limited. Upon becoming eligible, officers and men are offered plots – not all of them take it – and then pay every penny.

Hence, contrary to the popular belief there is no subsidy, no guarantee and no special treatment for the uniforms.

Lastly, it is through DHA that Shuhadas, wounded or disabled soldiers are given plots which they damn well deserve!


You guys need to be aware and understand the fact DHAs was PRIMARILY formed for Armed Forces, WITHOUT burdening anybody.

So, Faujis are supposed to have an edge. Civilians are not to be given any plots in DHAs, had it not been to make up the deficiency that occurs when plots are given to Shuhadas, War Wounded and Disabled.

We dont ask you or force you purchase plots in DHAs. Stop doing it, if it hurts so much!

Neither we stop any other organization, private or governmental to do the same, or should i say even though they do it, but due to incompetency, corruption and begairiti things go for a six and then cases like NICL Cases happens.

Just yesterday i was talking to a Police friend of mine while i was researching to write my blog. This is what he said:

"We also get similar plots/houses in Police Foundation Housing Societies, but unlike the transparency and efficiency in DHAs, most of our plots are gobbled up by senior officers, politicians and contractors. Our Director Housing is released funds so that he can purchase land for plotting at a prime locations, but he keeps half the amount and buys land at a God forsaken place where no one likes to live, who is to be blamed?"And i replied; "You, and nobody else!"

BTW, if you didnt know, most of DHA land were purchased at remote localities (DHA City Karachi, Malir Cantt are two examples), its by the virtue of the excellent development and construction team that once developed, these remote areas are converted into "prime" area with the passage of time, long time - as cities start developing around these DHAs.

Have you seen DHA 7 and 8 in Lahore? It's near Burki road, a place where only villages exist, with no water supply and gas. Now if DHA 7 and 8 develop there and people from main Lahore starts shifting there, and over the next 20 years become a 'prime' location, is that too our fault?

Strange?!!

 

[Xeric]

Dear Sir Xeric:

The Constitution mandates the armed forces to defending the borders. All your prose above merely shows how the Army has managed to usurp roles far beyond its mandate, no matter how you justify it.



I read your Baluchistan story with interest, but where are the specifics of the STARVING soldiers you claimed? Did I miss that?

All I will say is that our points of view are quite different, and I can respect yours without changing mine, for I am quite sure that my point of view will be vindicated, sooner rather than later.

Xeric, i understand what you are trying to put across. That the PA has done very commendable civilian and aid tasks.

But there is a fundamental question:
As per defined norms when Pakistan was formed. PA is mandated to protect Pakistan on the borders. It is an Army.

Whether or not Balochi's get electricity is NOT something that pertains to the Army regardless whether the civilian govt provides it or NOT. It is beyond your mandate as put by VCheng.

Haha..

i think both of you missed the IS clause and the one regarding 'In Aid of Civil Power'.

You, if seen like an expert on our Constitution, should have known that the civilian govt can requisition the Army at any time, may it be in peace or at time of turmoil. The Army has to obey, or else you will start whining about disobedience.

So when CM Balochistan asks Army for assistance, we go.

Just go take it up with your rulers and leaders who you vote for and 'unnecessarily' ask for military assistance, just dont blame the Army for it.

BTW, i think it was you VCheng who was moaning that this war in FATA will require both military operations and social uplift by the armed forces. The hearts and mind thingy, no?

It is the same thing the US military does in Afg and the indian army in Kashmir. That's a text book thing, now dont you whine over it.

Lastly, the US military/govt can pay thrice the normal amount to the Afghani contractors to construct a road in a war stricken area (more money can send people even working among minefields and IEDs), the question is, can Pakistani govt do the same? And if not, then should the govt leave the blastered area as it as no construction company/govt contractors are ready to risk their lives as they operate among talibans in Swat and surroundings? Or should the govt make use of Army's expertise,which is already there, to complete the social uplift, even though the Army at times DONATE (and as per your understanding go ultra vire, WTF?!) construction material and other stuff (like any organization would do) and yields more and better results if the same project was handled by a civilian company?

You people are just a bunch of thankless creatures, e-warriors who hail from the comforts of their couches with a singular aim of nit picking, finger pointing and finding bones where they dont exist (yes, you know where).

Get a life.

There's a thing known as sacrifice, though i wont say this to Contrarian who should understand its real meaning, but as regards you Cheng, i am sure that your capitalist brain will not even give charity if he dont see a return.

(BTW, cheng was a communists just a while ago, man you are one confused soul!)