We Don’t Seek Benevolence, But Don’t Malign us Either – Part I

[Jango]

I am merely observing that the privileges and perks, taken together, enjoyed by the military far exceed those available to a majority of society, and such a gap cannot be stable in the long term.

So that is the army's fault that the government does not look after the welfare of Pakistani citizens?

It's just like saying company X takes care of it's employees much better, while my company does not. So, it is X company's fault that it is giving better environment to it's employees?

BTW Xeric, I heard that you have to complete 17 years of service to be eligible for pension, correct?

 

[VCheng]

The OP is none other than the great Xeric himself


The responsibility of providing same enjoyment to the 'rest of the society' is not that of the Army, but the govt.

No one stops the govt, Alla-din & Sons, Webmaster & Co or you from taking such initiatives. Ofcourse it involves A LOT of capital and even if a private company is willing for such an initiative, it may not be able to do so. Solution: well a thing known as Joint Venture. WAK Gas Pakistan did the same when it launched its Pak-Arab Housing Scheme. The 'Arab' is there for a reason

Also, if microsoft, google or British Petroleum doesnt do it for you (why should they, when they pay you instead), one should go take it up with them, rather getting envious of others doing something noble

The government has very little left after servicing the debt and the military to provide social development to the extent that is needed.

Nah..nah....

There cant be any reason and any justification for questioning such initiatives if 1) No public money is involved, 2) The thing is transparent, 3) Land is not being grabbed, 4) No one is entering your turf.

Why would VCheng 'feel' if his neighbor is being provided with a house or a plasma through easy installments, especially if the company the dude serves in had used some brains and institutionalized the procedures, thus making it easy for its employees to get loans, or whatever?

The only other thing that comes in mind is 'jealousy.

But your definition, because Schlumberger provides its employees good food, so should my shop owner to me or else Schlumberger is evil, right?

Dear Sir, you really need to be more cognizant of human nature. On one level, your justifications might work, but on a society-wide level, they do break down if the disparities, however justifiable, become too wide. History tells us that clearly.

And thus the military is at fault here and therefore should be abused and maligned, right?

I have said no such thing that assigns fault, or abuses or maligns anyone.

 

[Safriz]

Pakistanis are one of the weirdest nation on the planet..Don’t have problem with Politician's Snatched and grabbed lands but do have Problem with a soldier's bought and legally acquired lands..
Plots are a form of social security and a form of pension for Retired soldiers..Gives them something to look forward to and a good life after retirement...
For example my Cousin and his wife both were in AMC..Both retired at almost the same time and both got a Plot in a good area..Both sold their plots and got something like 3 caror in their account from the sale of the plots...
Now due to the plot they are living a good care free retired life and dont need to worry about finances..
Because Army plans ahead for their people,and other institutions are not stopped to do the same.....

 

[vsdoc]

BTW Xeric, I heard that you have to complete 17 years of service to be eligible for pension, correct?

Same batch!

 

[Safriz]

The government has very little left after servicing the debt and the military to provide social development to the extent that is needed.

The responsibility goes on Politicians whose pockets are full of Money borrowed for the nation...
Army has sincere people who let the money trickle down to soldiers and officers.Same cannot be said about civilian institutions..
Fauji foundation "earns" honest money to be spent on different projects for benefit of soldiers...
who stops civilian institutions from doing the same?

 

[forcetrip]

The government has very little left after servicing the debt and the military to provide social development to the extent that is needed.

Could you be kind enough to tell us the % of the money Pakistan gets every year that goes towards the armed forces? Do you agree with the assessment about the part that the army facilitates the buying of land (instead of stealing) for its soldiers?

 

[Xeric]

The government has very little left after servicing the debt

Blame the military...yeah..!!

and the military to provide social development to the extent that is needed.

Bhai, decide it for once and all, do or dont you want that the military should provide social development?

What else do you think the military has been doing by constructing Tank-Wana road, by constructing blown up bridges around Swat, schools etc? :-

Or by this http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...ation-building-activities-pakistani-army.html

Or by this http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...lang-gold-valley-pak-armys-gift-nation-4.html and this Xeric's Primer: Chamalang Coal Mines - Pak Army's Gift to the Nation

Or by employing 50000 Balochistanis, providing free education to 5000 children from Lunni and Marri tribes including tuition fees, purchase of their books, uniforms, lunch boxes, shoes, you name it, apart from giving Rs 500 stipend to each of these 5000 kids - this schooling alone costs us around 480 million annually.

When i opened the above threads, even then people were having issues as to why the military is assisting the common Pakistanis, and here again they ask for the same.

Not specific to you VCheng, but chahtay kaya ho bhai

Dear Sir, you really need to be more cognizant of human nature. On one level, your justifications might work, but on a society-wide level, they do break down if the disparities, however justifiable, become too wide. History tells us that clearly.

Any any case it is THE human nature that find (nice) ways justify their jealousy, nothing else. Some call it human rights, others unequal distribution of resources.

I have said no such thing that assigns fault, or abuses or maligns anyone.

Dont take to the heart, i know didnt, was just per-empting other trolls.

 

[VCheng]

Could you be kind enough to tell us the % of the money Pakistan gets every year that goes towards the armed forces? Do you agree with the assessment about the part that the army facilitates the buying of land (instead of stealing) for its soldiers?

Debt servicing takes up about 55% of the budget.
Defense expenditure takes up about 25% of the budget.

That leaves 20% for everything else.

 

[airmarshal]

We Don’t Seek Benevolence, But Don’t Malign us Either – Part I

Xeric you have done a great job at clarifying the issue. I would like to raise a few points which I as a civilian thought about and found no answers.

1. They way your housing needs are taken care of, average Pakistanis only see you with envy. If you look around, the housing needs are tremendous and people don't have sincere government, civilian or military, to respond to such need. In despondency, common man questions about how come army personnel, who are not elites like the so called leaders, but common people have
a higher standard of living than average man on street.

2. Army is a very bureaucratic structure and honestly it does not do a good job at communicating with the nation. It has that bureaucratic, gora sahib attitude thats very stiff necked. Army need to do a better job at communicating. Modern warfare's important ingredient is communication with people. I think army needs training on this issue.

Since army has been in power several times, it has opened up undue space in which people rightly ask questions regarding its role in civilian domain.

3. DHA's are prime lands in the country. Every DHA is run by retired or active duty army personnel. It rightly provides the credibility to the whole enterprise but people do see the real estate domain as army dominated. It could be wrong perception but I know few army officers who got lands and apartments at very nominal prices and sold them at market rates to make good profit. It definitely puts army personnel at an advantage and when one body is at advantage to others, it opens up door to corruption.

 

[forcetrip]

Debt servicing takes up about 55% of the budget.
Defense expenditure takes up about 25% of the budget.

That leaves 20% for everything else.

So the obvious choice would be to cut defense spending by half and have more for everything else? What exactly is the solution for your complain?

 

[Safriz]

My dad was in FWO...while KKH was being built....I remember living in desolated remote places as a child..Once while on the road in an army jeep...a large rock fell on the jeep and luckily missed the passenger compartment and crushed the engine...We were saved by just a foot or two..Then dad used to tell us stories of colleagues falling in crevasses of glaciers,when he was stationed at loari top .. While living in timar garah Dir,i remember snakes entering our house because the area was a jungle..
You and your family dont face these dangers in Civilian jobs...So in my opinion if Army arranges certain benifits for its soldiers and families,its well justified...

 

[Arsalan]

and not to forget that the military is involved in lots of non-military projects. They are mostly doing well and is a good source of military income as well as providing job and building Pakistan's economy and even general public conditions, in most of the cases!

have a look at:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/149283-pak-armed-forces-non-military-projects.html

 

[VCheng]

and not to forget that the military is involved in lots of non-military projects. They are mostly doing well and is a good source of military income as well as providing job and building Pakistan's economy and even general public conditions, in most of the cases!

have a look at:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/149283-pak-armed-forces-non-military-projects.html

To be fair, one should ALSO read this:

Military Inc.: Inside Pakistan's Military Economy: Ayesha Siddiqa: 9780745325453: Amazon.com: Books

to evaluate both sides' points of view.

So the obvious choice would be to cut defense spending by half and have more for everything else? What exactly is the solution for your complain?

I am not complaining, merely providing the facts you asked for, with the observation that such high levels of defense expenditure are simply unsustainable.

 

[Xeric]

Pakistanis are one of the weirdest nation on the planet..Don’t have problem with Politician's Snatched and grabbed lands but do have Problem with a soldier's bought and legally acquired lands..
Plots are a form of social security and a form of pension for Retired soldiers..Gives them something to look forward to and a good life after retirement...
For example my Cousin and his wife both were in AMC..Both retired at almost the same time and both got a Plot in a good area..Both sold their plots and got something like 3 caror in their account from the sale of the plots...
Now due to the plot they are living a good care free retired life and dont need to worry about finances..
Because Army plans ahead for their people,and other institutions are not stopped to do the same.....

AOHS dont give plots.

Plots are PURCHASED (not 'given') through DHAs. Just stay tuned, the next piece of this series is on DHA, it will tell you how they got '3 caror'.

 

[VCheng]

.

Bhai, decide it for once and all, do or dont you want that the military should provide social development?

.................

The military has a clearly defined role in the Constitution, does it not? How can one justify going beyond that, ever?