Vipers are not coming??

[indianfighter1999]

well, my source tell me otherwise.

If the 3 vipers is still in the US, they will not put out a tender for preservation, because they can already do it in the US, either at Textron (they make them and most certainly have the way to store them) or at Davis-Monthan AFB aka AirForce Boneyard where they preserve thousand of fighter.

Also, knowing trump, if the viper is on hold, he will talk about it.

well ur sources are wrong then.
anyway the deal is not that important for pak military because of dialed down vipers but more about the air to ground missles coming with them.

 

[jhungary]

well ur sources are wrong then.
anyway the deal is not that important for pak military because of dialed down vipers but more about the air to ground missles coming with them.

My source is wrong, yet you did not response to my reason behind what I said. Not one.

So how my Textron and US Air Force source is wrong? Do tell?

 

[indianfighter1999]

My source is wrong, yet you did not response to my reason behind what I said. Not one.

So how my Textron and US Air Force source is wrong? Do tell?

hey I mean no disrespect... may be ur sources got wrong info. this time

 

[Cookie Monster]

What about more Mi-35M?

Instead of more Mi35Ms it would be better to use that money for T129 helicopters from Turkey. Either use it to finance the current deal with the remaining balance on credit...or use it to increase the numbers.

With T129 it's a better investment bcuz it will benefit PA/Pak in the long term. That money going to Turkey(instead of Russia) will help Turkey advance T129 further...which will then also benefit Pak...as opposed to an off the shelf purchase of Mi35.

 

[araz]

Instead of more Mi35Ms it would be better to use that money for T129 helicopters from Turkey. Either use it to finance the current deal with the remaining balance on credit...or use it to increase the numbers.

With T129 it's a better investment bcuz it will benefit PA/Pak in the long term. That money going to Turkey(instead of Russia) will help Turkey advance T129 further...which will then also benefit Pak...as opposed to an off the shelf purchase of Mi35.

The role of MI35 and T129 are different. A very crude example is you dont use a horse for long duration travel in the desert. It is the camel that you use and for the dash to the enemy you then utilize the horse. MI35s are for troop movement into areas of conflict while being in a position to defend itself. T129 will be used for target softening/armour destruction.
A

 

[jhungary]

hey I mean no disrespect... may be ur sources got wrong info. this time

The thing is, I did not just say my source tell me this, he told me quite a few thing and you put the information together and see if that is a valid intel, this is what I do when I was in the military. Processing information.

The fact to the matter is that, it's not whether or not my source told me the wrong thing, but his point being acceptable as a valid information. And in this case, you have no touch on the point I raise to make this information valid in my standpoint, and you go straight to "Your source is wrong"

I do get it wrong sometime, and I do not claim all my source and my information is correct, intelligence is a hit and miss game, but to counter a point or to counter the validity of an information, you need to suggest a valid counter-proof to see the information I am getting is invalid. Not just my source say your source is wrong, the question of Why is very important.

The point here is this.

1.) If the viper is held back, and in the US, DoD will not issue a tender for preservation and de-preservation program for a tender, both USAF and Textron have the capability to do that. If the viper is not delivering to Pakistan, then it will still be in USAF inventory or Textron inventory (depending on who pay for these chopper) and they won't waste money on something they already are able to do it.

2.) If the viper was held back, then since the first lime light back in 2017 when they parade them in the US in Pakistan color, the vipers would ALREADY be in preservation mode. They will not issue a new tender for yet another preservation contract.

3.) If the deal is held back, we should have heard about it via official channel by now, those chopper are not cheap, if they were held back by the US, wouldn't Pakistani government is interested to know why they were not deliver? They didn't ask US publicly suggest everything is on schedule.

So, unless you can provide an answer for all 3 point to counter my point, then I will have to believe my source and not you, because at this stand, you did not provide a single piece of information why the viper is being held back. You simply just say they are.

 

[Cookie Monster]

The role of MI35 and T129 are different. A very crude example is you dont use a horse for long duration travel in the desert. It is the camel that you use and for the dash to the enemy you then utilize the horse. MI35s are for troop movement into areas of conflict while being in a position to defend itself. T129 will be used for target softening/armour destruction.
A

Thanks for the informative post but I already knew that...in any case I don't see how is this related to what I'm saying

I already know that Mi35 is used for troop movement and it is armed. The person to whom I replied was saying that we should've used the money spent on AH1Z on Mi35 instead...

As u already know in terms of their roles, T129 is rather a closer analog to AH1Z than Mi35...
This is why I said that money should've been used for T129(in place of AH1Z) rather than Mi35.

 

[indianfighter1999]

The thing is, I did not just say my source tell me this, he told me quite a few thing and you put the information together and see if that is a valid intel, this is what I do when I was in the military. Processing information.

The fact to the matter is that, it's not whether or not my source told me the wrong thing, but his point being acceptable as a valid information. And in this case, you have no touch on the point I raise to make this information valid in my standpoint, and you go straight to "Your source is wrong"

I do get it wrong sometime, and I do not claim all my source and my information is correct, intelligence is a hit and miss game, but to counter a point or to counter the validity of an information, you need to suggest a valid counter-proof to see the information I am getting is invalid. Not just my source say your source is wrong, the question of Why is very important.

The point here is this.

1.) If the viper is held back, and in the US, DoD will not issue a tender for preservation and de-preservation program for a tender, both USAF and Textron have the capability to do that. If the viper is not delivering to Pakistan, then it will still be in USAF inventory or Textron inventory (depending on who pay for these chopper) and they won't waste money on something they already are able to do it.

2.) If the viper was held back, then since the first lime light back in 2017 when they parade them in the US in Pakistan color, the vipers would ALREADY be in preservation mode. They will not issue a new tender for yet another preservation contract.

3.) If the deal is held back, we should have heard about it via official channel by now, those chopper are not cheap, if they were held back by the US, wouldn't Pakistani government is interested to know why they were not deliver? They didn't ask US publicly suggest everything is on schedule.

So, unless you can provide an answer for all 3 point to counter my point, then I will have to believe my source and not you, because at this stand, you did not provide a single piece of information why the viper is being held back. You simply just say they are.

for all points yes deal is on ice right now as
only 3 choppers are built currently which are going into storage facilities. With Usa pace to manufacture military things all 12 would have been built pretty easily within past couple of years.
May be usa will still allow the deal to go through after getting what they want from pak army. But currently deal is on hold. Usa will never let go pak army’s addiction to Usa equipment I say chopper will be send once they get wat they want and then use spares and armaments as leverage.

 

[araz]

Thanks for the informative post but I already knew that...in any case I don't see how is this related to what I'm saying

I already know that Mi35 is used for troop movement and it is armed. The person to whom I replied was saying that we should've used the money spent on AH1Z on Mi35 instead...

As u already know in terms of their roles, T129 is rather a closer analog to AH1Z than Mi35...
This is why I said that money should've been used for T129(in place of AH1Z) rather than Mi35.

Sorry. Old age and associated premature verbal ejaculation.. Got your point incorrectly.
However, with there being need for both platforms, PAA will apportion resources accordingly. The induction of MI35 is likely to take a slightly slower route as PAA wants to evluate the platform further before ordering the 20 units or so that it requires. T129 I suspect will get a follow up orders with increasing local production as the Helo assembly plans take off. I am uncertain how far PAA want to take this but potentially we need upto 80 platforms. If we do joint production and marketing it might be worth getting a share of production cost if worth while. This would need to be negotiated depending on market, viability of the venture. The Turks have already intimated their happiness for us to produce bits of the helo locally. Whether we have the plans to do so or indeed the political and military will needs to be seen. The Turkish Helo engine project would ensure our interest as it frees us from foreign sanctions and independence in another aspect of our defence.
A

 

[jhungary]

for all points yes deal is on ice right now as
only 3 choppers are built currently which are going into storage facilities. With Usa pace to manufacture military things all 12 would have been built pretty easily within past couple of years.
May be usa will still allow the deal to go through after getting what they want from pak army. But currently deal is on hold. Usa will never let go pak army’s addiction to Usa equipment I say chopper will be send once they get wat they want and then use spares and armaments as leverage.

So, it's you say the deal is on hold, then the deal is on hold? And no, you are right and not the security clearance holding Textron employee and not an USAF officer who hold security clearance that is even higher than me and hold briefing to the United States president (I already have the third highest in the chain with TS/SCI)?

And you still not answer any of the point I made.

I am done here.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Sorry. Old age and associated premature verbal ejaculation.. Got your point incorrectly.
However, with there being need for both platforms, PAA will apportion resources accordingly. The induction of MI35 is likely to take a slightly slower route as PAA wants to evluate the platform further before ordering the 20 units or so that it requires. T129 I suspect will get a follow up orders with increasing local production as the Helo assembly plans take off. I am uncertain how far PAA want to take this but potentially we need upto 80 platforms. If we do joint production and marketing it might be worth getting a share of production cost if worth while. This would need to be negotiated depending on market, viability of the venture. The Turks have already intimated their happiness for us to produce bits of the helo locally. Whether we have the plans to do so or indeed the political and military will needs to be seen. The Turkish Helo engine project would ensure our interest as it frees us from foreign sanctions and independence in another aspect of our defence.
A

Yes I understand that there is still a need for Mi35 but that is another topic altogether.

Since on this thread we are discussing AH1Z...I was advocating that the money would've been better spent on T129s for a few key reasons.

- Due to better relations with Turkey/TOT and local production, it is most likely to remain sanction proof(once the engine is also Turkish)

- the more T129s are sold the more money would be used to further develop it...and since these would make a sizable portion of PA's attack helicopters, it would be better for Pak

- Local production of T129(if that's happening) would keep at least some of the money within the economy, as opposed to Pak paying for AH1Z(which would be money exiting Pak economy)

This is not to underestimate or bash AH1Z. It is a very good platform but it gives US a lot of leverage over Pak. Even that could be looked over to a degree but what can't be looked over is the threat of sanctions during war time. If a war is to break out against India and US decides to withhold key spare parts then it doesn't matter how much superior AH1Z is to T129.

So all things considered...Pak should go all in with the T129 project.

 

[araz]

Yes I understand that there is still a need for Mi35 but that is another topic altogether.

Since on this thread we are discussing AH1Z...I was advocating that the money would've been better spent on T129s for a few key reasons.

- Due to better relations with Turkey/TOT and local production, it is most likely to remain sanction proof(once the engine is also Turkish)

- the more T129s are sold the more money would be used to further develop it...and since these would make a sizable portion of PA's attack helicopters, it would be better for Pak

- Local production of T129(if that's happening) would keep at least some of the money within the economy, as opposed to Pak paying for AH1Z(which would be money exiting Pak economy)

This is not to underestimate or bash AH1Z. It is a very good platform but it gives US a lot of leverage over Pak. Even that could be looked over to a degree but what can't be looked over is the threat of sanctions during war time. If a war is to break out against India and US decides to withhold key spare parts then it doesn't matter how much superior AH1Z is to T129.

So all things considered...Pak should go all in with the T129 project.

You do know that the AH1Z has a lot of FMF which means it is a much more cheaper platform for PAA to buy and maintain. There is some commonality with the AHIF/S which PAA has got infrastructure for so infrastructure would nesd updating rather than establishing which is a lot cheaper. It is still a much better platform and Pak military establishment has had a habit of buying them in small enough numbers so as not to matter yet have the technology at hand. I think this aspect needs to be taken into account. An example is how PAF bought 18 Bl.52s yet all the EDAs were block 15s which were upgraded. Even when we opted for 8 bl.52s they were costing us much less due to FMF and there may have been an associated request for more EDA16/Bl.15. So there seems to be a methodology behind these purchases and the advantage in terms of technology access is what keeps us relevant. There are many ramifications to this which need not be spelled out. I agree that T129 is our future and I see further purchases down the line as funds are available.
A

So, it's you say the deal is on hold, then the deal is on hold? And no, you are right and not the security clearance holding Textron employee and not an USAF officer who hold security clearance that is even higher than me and hold briefing to the United States president (I already have the third highest in the chain with TS/SCI)?

And you still not answer any of the point I made.

I am done here.

Please dont feed the troll. I have requested mediation and appropriate extermination.
Regards
A

 

[Cookie Monster]

You do know that the AH1Z has a lot of FMF which means it is a much more cheaper platform for PAA to buy and maintain. There is some commonality with the AHIF/S which PAA has got infrastructure for so infrastructure would nesd updating rather than establishing which is a lot cheaper. It is still a much better platform and Pak military establishment has had a habit of buying them in small enough numbers so as not to matter yet have the technology at hand. I think this aspect needs to be taken into account. An example is how PAF bought 18 Bl.52s yet all the EDAs were block 15s which were upgraded. Even when we opted for 8 bl.52s they were costing us much less due to FMF and there may have been an associated request for more EDA16/Bl.15. So there seems to be a methodology behind these purchases and the advantage in terms of technology access is what keeps us relevant. There are many ramifications to this which need not be spelled out. I agree that T129 is our future and I see further purchases down the line as funds are available.
A

Yes I'm not one of those who is bashing the Army's decision of going with the AH1Z and saying that it's due to corruption and what not. In case of defense equipment acquisition, I try to be objective rather than emotional. Also I'm aware that these AH1Z were subsidized just like how the F16s were supposed to be before that fell through.

I know that PA already has Cobras and the relevant infrastructure in place. Getting these newer ones(with better avionics) have commonality with the previous ones PA has in use. Moreover if PA's prior Cobras can datalink with these new ones then the new ones can even share targeting information etc.

I understand the advantages and if US relations with Pak were like Turkey's relations with Pak then it would be a no brainer to pick AH1Z over T129 even though it's more expensive(without subsidy by US). However the reality is that the relations have deteriorated significantly.

To the US, Pakistan isn't currently as useful as it was when USSR was sitting in Afghanistan. India is no longer strictly in USSR's camp as it was before. China is the new emerging threat to challenge US supremacy and India is favored as a counter to China. Pakistan's closeness with China and its tensions with India makes Pakistan sort of a hurdle in the grand plan of subduing China by using India.

Taking all of this into account, the threat of sanctions, blocking key spare parts during a war with India is a real possibility. So all the advantages of AH1Z are essentially nullified if it can't be used during war. So whether they were cheaper through the subsidy or expensive...it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. If there's a risk that these might not be able to fulfill the very purpose for which they are acquired then PA is better off going with something that it can use...even if slightly inferior. One must take into account the strategic circumstances that are in play.

On a side note...Eid Mubarak

 

[araz]

Yes I'm not one of those who is bashing the Army's decision of going with the AH1Z and saying that it's due to corruption and what not. In case of defense equipment acquisition, I try to be objective rather than emotional. Also I'm aware that these AH1Z were subsidized just like how the F16s were supposed to be before that fell through.

I know that PA already has Cobras and the relevant infrastructure in place. Getting these newer ones(with better avionics) have commonality with the previous ones PA has in use. Moreover if PA's prior Cobras can datalink with these new ones then the new ones can even share targeting information etc.

I understand the advantages and if US relations with Pak were like Turkey's relations with Pak then it would be a no brainer to pick AH1Z over T129 even though it's more expensive(without subsidy by US). However the reality is that the relations have deteriorated significantly.

To the US, Pakistan isn't currently as useful as it was when USSR was sitting in Afghanistan. India is no longer strictly in USSR's camp as it was before. China is the new emerging threat to challenge US supremacy and India is favored as a counter to China. Pakistan's closeness with China and its tensions with India makes Pakistan sort of a hurdle in the grand plan of subduing China by using India.

Taking all of this into account, the threat of sanctions, blocking key spare parts during a war with India is a real possibility. So all the advantages of AH1Z are essentially nullified if it can't be used during war. So whether they were cheaper through the subsidy or expensive...it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. If there's a risk that these might not be able to fulfill the very purpose for which they are acquired then PA is better off going with something that it can use...even if slightly inferior. One must take into account the strategic circumstances that are in play.

On a side note...Eid Mubarak

Eid Mubabrak to you as well. At the moment direct embargo is not in US favour due to their continues entanglement in Afghanistan. Indirectly certain restraints have been applied. To be honest the same restraints will be faced against any other EU Provider. So we either buy what we can while developing resources from other avenues and making ourselves independant. Other option is sticking with China where the products are not matured. You have seen the latency between interest and signing of contract. Ot still signifies a reasonable assessment that in case of US/EU embargo Turkey will be able to continue to supply us. The other aspect is to have more comprehensive spares storage facilities in house ideally with limited local production of spares.
A

 

[jhungary]

Yes I'm not one of those who is bashing the Army's decision of going with the AH1Z and saying that it's due to corruption and what not. In case of defense equipment acquisition, I try to be objective rather than emotional. Also I'm aware that these AH1Z were subsidized just like how the F16s were supposed to be before that fell through.

I know that PA already has Cobras and the relevant infrastructure in place. Getting these newer ones(with better avionics) have commonality with the previous ones PA has in use. Moreover if PA's prior Cobras can datalink with these new ones then the new ones can even share targeting information etc.

I understand the advantages and if US relations with Pak were like Turkey's relations with Pak then it would be a no brainer to pick AH1Z over T129 even though it's more expensive(without subsidy by US). However the reality is that the relations have deteriorated significantly.

To the US, Pakistan isn't currently as useful as it was when USSR was sitting in Afghanistan. India is no longer strictly in USSR's camp as it was before. China is the new emerging threat to challenge US supremacy and India is favored as a counter to China. Pakistan's closeness with China and its tensions with India makes Pakistan sort of a hurdle in the grand plan of subduing China by using India.

Taking all of this into account, the threat of sanctions, blocking key spare parts during a war with India is a real possibility. So all the advantages of AH1Z are essentially nullified if it can't be used during war. So whether they were cheaper through the subsidy or expensive...it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. If there's a risk that these might not be able to fulfill the very purpose for which they are acquired then PA is better off going with something that it can use...even if slightly inferior. One must take into account the strategic circumstances that are in play.

On a side note...Eid Mubarak

ON a ground force point of view, T-129 and Viper are two different class of attack helicopter.

Viper is a all rounder heavy attack chopper, same class and same armament configuration with the Apache Longbow, which mean with the longbow radar, Viper can survive in battlefield alone and also Viper can be used as a C2 bird in place of the old OH-58D Kiowa Warrior.

T-129 is a light attack helicopter, you will need to link it to a C2 aircraft or a AWACS to get its full functionality. Or you will have to have it on the air continuously and depend on ground force to feed targeting (ISR) information.

Politically, the ramification of getting the viper is not that bad actually. US is still tied down in Afghanistan, as long as bulk of US force is in Afghanistan, the US will need Pakistan to keep the ground route into Afghanistan open. And in case of a war between India and Pakistan, US will mostly do what they had done before, which is neither support India nor Pakistan.