Vietnam ordered stealth destroyers P28 of India

[Penguin]

There will be VL Barak 1/MICA/Maitri on P28A or may be Barak 8. BrahMos can be there in place of RBU-6000.
There will be BrahMos/Nirbhay on Next Generation Missile Vessels (about 2000 tonnes) which are going to be much smaller than Kamorta-class & almost all of specifications for both are same except ASW capability of P28A removed vs AShM/Land attack capability added & aviation facility removed but I still think not much difference compared to size.
I think RBU-6000 using a lot of space.

This nicely illustrate how the space is used in the Talwar. Note the RBU-6000 feeding from a magazine that is 4 decks down. Note the VLS taking up a whole 4 decks.

Does p28 have at least 3 decks below the main deck, like Talwar? And given the flare of the hull, will there be enough space (area) for the VLS low down?

Kamorta class next to Shivalik class. Note the difference in tallness.

Buyan-M has the launcher we are discussing for Brahmos but for Russian missile. It displaces only 949 tons full (project 21631). The point is not whether small ships could fit a Brahmos launcher, but rather how. Here the top of the hull behind the mast is where the launcher hatches are.There are 2 decks ' superstructure' and 3 decks below main to house the VLS. Don't try sticking it in the bow area on this ship: it won't fit.. Note also it is put lengthwise rather than crosswise. This too has to do with depth of the ship.

 

[MKC]

X-shaped hull.

I think using composite material will reduce it's weight further & if automation is increased from 180+13 to 80+10 like P17 to P17A as 90 sailors is almost standard for such ships, what do you think.
Recently GRSE offered two frigates to Philippines Navy(may be based on P28) can be used for a light frigate.

This nicely illustrate how the space is used in the Talwar. Note the RBU-6000 feeding from a magazine that is 4 decks down. Note the VLS taking up a whole 4 decks.

Does p28 have at least 3 decks below the main deck, like Talwar? And given the flare of the hull, will there be enough space (area) for the VLS low down?

Kamorta class next to Shivalik class. Note the difference in tallness.

2 x RBU-6000 ASW rocket launchers designated as IRL (Indigenous Rocket Launchers). Each launcher is 12 barreled and has a reload of 96 rockets under the deck. They are retained because of their hardkill ability and immunity against countermeasures. These rockets have a range of 4500 m and a shaped charge warhead which can be set to explode at a particular depth. It can punch a hole in the hull of a submarine or be used to defend against an incoming torpedo. The rocket, after it is fired, reaches the required location and falls in the water where it sinks until it reaches its target. Usually, 24 rockets with various warheads are ripple fired against the incoming target to achieve maximum kill rate.Source

So, I think there is much space below RBU-6000(may not be full for BrahMos, I don't know if height can be raised or not), another thing is in Talwar BrahMos is ahead of RBUs so that may provide more space for 8xBrahMos also there is only one RBU-6000 on Talwar.

 

[Carlosa]

This nicely illustrate how the space is used in the Talwar. Note the RBU-6000 feeding from a magazine that is 4 decks down. Note the VLS taking up a whole 4 decks.

Does p28 have at least 3 decks below the main deck, like Talwar? And given the flare of the hull, will there be enough space (area) for the VLS low down?

Kamorta class next to Shivalik class. Note the difference in tallness.

Buyan-M has the launcher we are discussing for Brahmos but for Russian missile. It displaces only 949 tons full (project 21631). The point is not whether small ships could fit a Brahmos launcher, but rather how. Here the top of the hull behind the mast is where the launcher hatches are.There are 2 decks ' superstructure' and 3 decks below main to house the VLS. Don't try sticking it in the bow area on this ship: it won't fit.. Note also it is put lengthwise rather than crosswise. This too has to do with depth of the ship.

The latest info that I used to read said 32 Batak 8 on the P28. Barak 8 is a very skinny missile, I don't think its a problem. If anything, the 4.5 m length is usually more of an issue but in that location should be ok.

To fit the Brahmos, the deck area where the RBU-6000s sit will have to be raised a bit, that's all. Don't forget that there is a version of the Russian frigate Gepard 3.9 (2200 ton light frigate / corvette) also have 8 Klub missiles in the same spot and that's an smaller ship. It also uses the same UKSK VLS. The P28 is definitely taller than the Gepard.

Just by looking at the pic of the Barak 8 VLS, I would estimate a rough size of 2 x 1.4 meters, so I think 2 of those on each side of the hangar is feasible, we are just talking 4 x 1.4 m total on each side.

 

[MilSpec]

BARAK-8 has been tested out to 90KM now (it had exceeded planned specs).

I am eagerly awaiting the NGMV, With a Nirbhay/Brahmos Combo it can be very good export platform.

Now P28 has a huge potential as a Guided Missile Corvette/Frigate, ASW Corvette, and an India Specific K15 platform as a land attack missile truck would be pretty cool.

 

[MKC]

The latest info that I used to read said 32 Batak 8 on the P28. Barak 8 is a very skinny missile, I don't think its a problem. If anything, the 4.5 m length is usually more of an issue but in that location should be ok.

To fit the Brahmos, the deck area where the RBU-6000s sit will have to be raised a bit, that's all. Don't forget that the Russian frigate Stereguchy (2200 ton light frigate / corvette) also have 8 Klub missiles in the same spot and that's an smaller ship. It also uses the same UKSK VLS. The P28 is definitely taller than the Stereguchy.

No, there can be 16 Barak 8 not 32, even Kolkata-class has just 32 Barak 8.

I am eagerly awaiting the NGMV, With a Nirbhay/Brahmos Combo it can be very good export platform.

It will have too much export potential if space is utilised very well like Talwar-class with state of art sensors &
Weapons should be
76mm gun
CIWS
Maitri/Barak 8
BrahMos
4 torpedos(not in requirement but if we want to export then these are necessary)
We can export as much 10 such warships if not more if built without aviation facility(1500-2000 tonnes) & almost 20 if built with aviation facility(2000-2500 tonnes) with using indigenous composite material this weight can be reduced 20% if not more, navy don't have to induct soon, if IN don't have budget now just announce winner & give them tender for building & start building 1 or 2 ships & order for export come soon after that.

There are many countries which require such ships & are more than willing to buy these from India specially in ASEANs, some in middle east & south America. If shipyards wanted they might run for Australian frigate bidding as P17A is best among FREMM, Global Combat Ship & Navantia frigate also cheapest among these but it seems that hasn't designed yet but again there is only design of GCS no ship built yet.

Now P28 has a huge potential as a Guided Missile Corvette/Frigate, ASW Corvette, and an India Specific K15 platform as a land attack platform would be pretty cool.

Automation of these ships from P28 to P28A must be from 180 sailors13 officers to 80 sailors+10 officers, this seems standard for most of the European ships which have much of export orders like Govind-class, Floreal.
What is K15, are you talking about missile?
Specifications
Weight 6–7 t (6.6–7.7 short tonnes)
Length 10 m (33 ft)
Diameter 0.74 m (2.4 ft)
Warhead 1,000 kg (2,200 lb)
Tell me which warship can accommodate that?

 

[Carlosa]

No, there can be 16 Barak 8 not 32, even Kolkata-class has just 32 Barak 8.

OK then, I stand corrected, it will be 16 Barak 8 in the Indian P28, but I think it could be modified for 32 though..

 

[MilSpec]

What is K15, are you talking about missile?
Specifications
Weight 6–7 t (6.6–7.7 short tonnes)
Length 10 m (33 ft)
Diameter 0.74 m (2.4 ft)
Warhead 1,000 kg (2,200 lb)
Tell me which warship can accommodate that?

Prithvi III weighing 5600 KG could be launched from a Sukanya Class patrol craft, a customized 6 cylinder errectable launche module, flush mounted to deck doesn't seem to be an impossible task, Or even a Arhinat VL module for K15 would do, But that's just my wishful thinking.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

This is not a P17 or P17A based ship. See the double stack arrangement, indicating similar propulsion to P15 and P15A (COGAG) rather than CODOG. See double bridge. See weapons layout, sensor fit.

That design shown is P15B.

First hull is launched.

You can see the second in the background forming.

P17A

 

[vsdave2302]

India is developing its own class of conventional submarines heavily influenced by Scorpenes, but with AIP and VLS for Brahmos and Nirbhay. Vietnam should think about similar class of submarines too.

@Viet & @Carlosa

Yes , the advantage what we have is that we have access to multiple technologies in addition to our own. We have access to French, german and Russian technology. Naturally our own submarine shall much more capable.

We have taken a lead in cost effective highly potent warships equiped with best in class configurations. I Hope that we can replicate this success in submarines as well.

Vietnam will definately get a value for money with a high potency indian warship. I hope that they will be pleased veru much with indian supplied boat and oreder few more.

 

[MKC]

OK then, I stand corrected, it will be 16 Barak 8 in the Indian P28, but I think it could be modified for 32 though..

Yes, in that can you may be right as even Sa'ar 5 class has 16 Barak 8 which is 1/3 of P28A.

Prithvi III weighing 5600 KG could be launched from a Sukanya Class patrol craft, a customized 6 cylinder errectable launche module, flush mounted to deck doesn't seem to be an impossible task, Or even a Arhinat VL module for K15 would do, But that's just my wishful thinking.

What are you talking?
Have you seen picture of Dhanush on Sukanya-class OPV?
How much it's RCS will be?
On 6 cylinder erectable launch module, how many SAMs should that ship have, where will you provide space for that?
Again, cost of the program?

 

[MilSpec]

Yes, in that can you may be right as even Sa'ar 5 class has 16 Barak 8 which is 1/3 of P28A.

What are you talking?
Have you seen picture of Dhanush on Sukanya-class OPV?
How much it's RCS will be?
On 6 cylinder erectable launch module, how many SAMs should that ship have, where will you provide space for that?
Again, cost of the program?

No Sams, Purely Land Attack missile boat, always in a formation.

 

[vsdave2302]

carlosa is a fan of subs, while I all for destroyers.

actually the Chinese has a navy that is some 10 times bigger than ours. but their current military budget of $210 billion, and increasing, I won´t be surprised if in 5 years, we face a navy that is 20 times bigger than we can ever field at sea. on paper, we have no chance now, and less chance tomorrow and the times to come. what we need a wonder. AIP subs with VLS for Brahmos and Nirbhay could be the wonder we need

There are some strategies how to fight with powerful enemy. Buy some Brahmos. If you posses the capability to destroy some chinese ships, they will literally piss. Even if vietnam looses, it will be a big humiliation of china. You buy some Su 30 with Brahmos fitted ion it and china will start to shever. you can buy tejas fitted with mini Brahmos subsequently and destroy chinese ship even before they can see your planes.

 

[Viet]

Good point. Even the Kilos that VN is getting could have an upgrade stretching the hull in order to add the AIP system. Subs need to have a mid life upgrade in order to overhaul the hull due to metal fatigue, so that would be a good opportunity to add the AIP.

It seems like the next VN purchase of subs will be from Italy (S-1000) or the new Swedish type 26, but nothing is confirmed yet.

@Viet



Subs my man, subs. Considering where technology is today, only subs can hide. As submariners like to say: there are subs and everything else are just targets.....

ha ha ha... old love never dies huh

ok ok we need subs, and more subs, deploying a tactic as the germans during the two world wars. we hide subs in the deep sea, and if hostility breaks our, striking our enemy with medium and long range cruise and ballistic missiles.

There are some strategies how to fight with powerful enemy. Buy some Brahmos. If you posses the capability to destroy some chinese ships, they will literally piss. Even if vietnam looses, it will be a big humiliation of china. You buy some Su 30 with Brahmos fitted ion it and china will start to shever. you can buy tejas fitted with mini Brahmos subsequently and destroy chinese ship even before they can see your planes.

actually our biggest concern is not going to war, let assume, it will be fought by conventional means, but war is something we can´t afford. the Chinese have money, they can afford it, we not. a war will set our country back in years, if not a decade. we have seen it when they misused Cambodia as proxy to wage war against us in the 1970s. we aren't afraid of war, we have seen a lot of it, but a war is the last thing on this planet we need.

how to deter the Chinese?

that is the one million dollar question.

our army needs something that reminds them of paying an unsustainable cost.

 

[vsdave2302]

actually our biggest concern is not going to war, let assume, it will be fought by conventional means, but war is something we can´t afford. the Chinese have money, they can afford it, we not. a war will set our country back in years, if not a decade. we have seen it when they misused Cambodia as proxy to wage war against us in the 1970s. we aren't afraid of war, we have seen a lot of it, but a war is the last thing on this planet we need.

how to deter the Chinese?

that is the one million dollar question.

our army needs something that reminds them of paying an unsustainable cost.

Ok I remember one quote of our scientist about Brahmos. He said that Brahmos has a potential to stop the war. It is such a potent missile that if you have that in your arsenal than enemy would noe like to mess with you. If Vietnam is in a condition to inflict some collateral damage to china, they would not prefer to mess with you. for that , you need to be reasonably strong.

 

[Penguin]

I think using composite material will reduce it's weight further & if automation is increased from 180+13 to 80+10 like P17 to P17A as 90 sailors is almost standard for such ships, what do you think.
Recently GRSE offered two frigates to Philippines Navy(may be based on P28) can be used for a light frigate.

Use of composites doesn't necessarily solve topweight issues, which deal with where the centre of gravity of the ship is and how high up there is significent weight. See Sa'ar 5: it never sailed with the 2x32 Barak AND 2x4 Harpoon AND 2x4 Gabriel for which it was designed (and with good reason).
Shivalik class has a complement of 257 (including 35 officers). This will be reduced to about 150 total in P17A. If you project that reduction ration onto the p28 complement of 193, you get 113. I don't know what you mean by 'such ships': what ships are you comparing to?

2 x RBU-6000 ASW rocket launchers designated as IRL (Indigenous Rocket Launchers). Each launcher is 12 barreled and has a reload of 96 rockets under the deck. They are retained because of their hardkill ability and immunity against countermeasures. These rockets have a range of 4500 m and a shaped charge warhead which can be set to explode at a particular depth. It can punch a hole in the hull of a submarine or be used to defend against an incoming torpedo. The rocket, after it is fired, reaches the required location and falls in the water where it sinks until it reaches its target. Usually, 24 rockets with various warheads are ripple fired against the incoming target to achieve maximum kill rate.Source

So, I think there is much space below RBU-6000(may not be full for BrahMos, I don't know if height can be raised or not), another thing is in Talwar BrahMos is ahead of RBUs so that may provide more space for 8xBrahMos also there is only one RBU-6000 on Talwar.

Magazine capacity varies, typically 72 or 96 rounds per RBU-6000 launcher. The launchers itself weighs 3.1 tons. The classic RGB-60 projectile weighs 110kg and the more modern homing 90R projectile weighs 112.5kg.

So, at set of two launchers, each with their own reloading mechanism and magazine weighs between 2x(3100+(72*110))=22040kg and 2x(3100+(96*112.5))=27800kg.

The 8-round UKSK-Kh launcher weighs 14 or 15 tons, depending on subtype. Each Brahmos missile weighs 3 tons. So, a set of 8 in a VLS would weigh 28-29 tons.

The arrangement of RBU and Brahmos systems on P17/Shivalik isn't all that different from that on project 1135.6/Talwar. With a beam of 16.9m and draught of 4.5m, P17 is about 1.7m wider and has 0.3m greater draught relative to 1135.6. For Delhi/P15 and Kolkata/P15A this is 17.4 m and 6.5 m. Kamorta/P28 has a beam of 13.7 m.

As late as may 2015, Janes reported on P28 that:

In due course, the corvettes will be fitted with an Atlas Elektronik towed array sonar, the Israeli Barak 1 missile system, and the Indian-developed Mareech Anti Torpedo Decoy System.

http://www.janes.com/article/51550/grse-launches-fourth-p28-corvette-for-indian-navy

The Kamorta Class is installed with a 16-cell vertical launching system (VLS) for firing Barak Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAMs). The Barak SAM system can strike anti-ship missiles, fixed and rotary-wing aircraft as well as UAVs.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kamorta-class-asw-corvettes/

Ok I remember one quote of our scientist about Brahmos. He said that Brahmos has a potential to stop the war. It is such a potent missile that if you have that in your arsenal than enemy would noe like to mess with you. If Vietnam is in a condition to inflict some collateral damage to china, they would not prefer to mess with you. for that , you need to be reasonably strong.

Why. Existing systems have been able to intercept supersonic missiles for quite some time, e.g. Goalkeeper and ESSM. People keep forgetting the Russians have employed supersonic missiles for a far longer period than the existence of Brahmos. And, besides, supersonic low level penetrating aircraft are just as dangerous (if a larger target). The only issue with supersonic missiles is the decreased response time, as defender you want to detect them as far out as possible and engage them as far out as possible. That's where the challenges are and that's why you get e.g. an 11km SeaRam replacing a 3km Phalanx on a one for one basis, or ESSMs on board the Arleigh Burke.