US wants India's help in fighting Baitullah Mehsud: Holbrooke

[S-2]

The things some people so desperately wish to believe.

It would be better for all of you to march on your government and demand that they declare war on America, NATO, ISAF, the U.N., Afghanistan, and maybe India too.

You want to. You know you do. You REALLY want to.

There have been countless thousands of wet-dreams at this board alone of marching at the fore of a victorious Pakistani/Pashtu taliban alliance into Kabul and sending the afghan and Indian minions of America scurrying before the might of your righteous power.

Free yourselves from these shackles of aid and call a spade a spade. No amount of aid can save you and will only hasten the enriched escape of your current leaders once they skim their 10%.

No. Make open, manly war upon the Americans and others behind the uniform and flag of Pakistan to assert your perceived rights and position in this world. Earn by the sword what's heretofore been denied and teach all those in need of a lesson in proper humility to FEAR your powerful army...

I don't wish a red cent of my nation's money upon you. I fear it's misuse and I've sixty plus years of disastrously single-minded focus on Kashmir and India at the expense of your overall social development. It's caught up with you and no amount of civil aid will arrest that condition much less reverse such in time to save yourselves.

Until you've EXHAUSTED yourselves of these mis-begotten notions of denied glory and embrace the hard business of nationhood, we're wasting our money supporting a likely enemy.

I'm reminded here constantly that no nation has suffered more. I say Afghanistan has. I'm reminded that your army has lost over a thousand men in this war. I'll remind you that you've done so on your own soil and that has been over the course of seven years. That's less than one reinforced battalion.

I'm real unimpressed with everything except the amazing conquest of FATA and SWAT. That's impressive.

Were it the Indians, though, you'd be charging with pitchforks, stones, and wooden spears if need be.

I prefer that we quit tap-dancing around this and begin to ask the simple, salient questions of whether there's any way in hell you can be a good ally to Afghanistan's stabilization effort now underway and whether any aid, civil or military, rendered now would make a difference?

My answers are you're our enemy and can't help and even if you weren't additional aid isn't the answer and wouldn't arrive in time nor with sufficient impact to affect matters for the better.

 

[rahgup]

And please, we are much better off here in Pakistan then the homeless bastards sleeping on your footpaths!!

I fail to understand this statement. It goes against the decency of any forum in the world.

So there are poor homeless people in India. Why are you abusing them instead of giving some constructive criticism.

Does Islam allow or ask you to abuse the poor in other countries. There are many poor people in other parts of the world, I do not see the reason to abuse them.

MODS: I think this user needs to be reprimanded

 

[Hellfire]

RAW plots two attacks per week in Pakistan

ISLAMABAD—A suicide bombing at a crowded Shia mosque in Chakwal killed 22 people on Sunday, the latest incident is evidence of RAW’s conspiracy to create sectarian violence in Pakistan. RAW has deep links in Pakistani media as well as achieved an edge in cyber crimes. RAW sponsored media channels and websites have stared criticizing prominent Muslim religious leaders who participated in war of independence with mere motive to create sectarian tension and law and order situation in the country. RAW has instructed to its Pakistani and Afghan agents to carryout at least two attacks per week in Pakistan to destabilize Pakistan.

Meanwhile, taking advantage of threats by Pakistani Taliban commanders, RAW is issuing statement on their behalf to create unrest in Pakistan as well as to spoil image of Pakistan internationally. In the backdrop of series of RAW sponsored terrorist attacks in Pakistan, the US has escalated its campaign of missile strikes since August last year. RAW, in its recent move has issued a statement on the behalf of Baitullah mehsud that he is responsible for an attack on a US immigration assistance center in New York state in which 14 people were killed but FBI has ruled out that Mehsud was behind the attacks.

The Daily Mail - Daily News from Pakistan - Newspaper from Pakistan

what a load of crap and you persist with the same line forever sir.

please - as an author am sure you have the faculties to be able to sift between pure BS and theories/suspicions/facts and this sir is purely BS

if this was remotely true, it would mean that the entire security apparatus of Pakistan right from President to FM to PM to Defence Minister is on Indian payroll. In addition COAS of PA, DG ISI and various heads of security services and police too. For you will require active cooperation from all these agencies to be able to run operations at such a rate being a foreign power. Then in that case Pakistan is doomed and as such deserves it if it puts such idiots in power and leaves its army and security and intelligence services looking incompetent.
They are not and neither is Pakistan a foolish nation. This post is pure BS

 

[Hellfire]

Rubbish! Baitullah claimed the NY attack becuase he wants US troops in Pakistan -- read "Management of Savagery" an al-Qaida manual to see the strategy, since what AQ wants is to disrupt local countries and finds it advantageous to poke the US in the eye so that the US comes after it - AQ then argues that the local govt is league with the US, is a slave of the US, is at war with it's own people on behalf of the US and with this argument seek to win the populace to it's side.

muse

Mr Munshi persists in projecting RAW as an almighty and super duper organisation. Please do bear with him - its entertaining to imagine how an organisation like CIA (whose budget is greater than Indian defence budget on its own) is fooled by RAW into attacking more and more into Pakistan as at the same time fooling ISI-PA-GoP combine ...... too good!

 

[Hellfire]

I fail to understand this statement. It goes against the decency of any forum in the world.

So there are poor homeless people in India. Why are you abusing them instead of giving some constructive criticism.

Does Islam allow or ask you to abuse the poor in other countries. There are many poor people in other parts of the world, I do not see the reason to abuse them.

MODS: I think this user needs to be reprimanded

well actually epool understood he went overboard with this comment and am sure he has not meant it in anyways to be taken as an insult to all the people who have this misfortune bestowed upon them who exist in equal numbers and ratios in Pakistan, US, Japan etc ...... I am sure that this was an isolated incident and the mods have taken due note of the same and treated it as it needs to be treated - an isolated and redundant incident best ignored and not honored by being given recognition. Further pushing this point only will serve to highlight this issue which is both counterproductive and in poor taste.

at best if you want to still give it some amount of thought and credence treat it as an attempt to troll .......

 

[batmannow]

you have lost the track of my posts so far ....... while for whom it was a reply very well understood what it was .......

and fighting in a built up area with riders of protection of historical monument and minimal civilian casualties does cause certain restricions .... not so in an area where collateral damage will not be a factor ...... please be realistic and while I may not call this as a trolling, but would attribute your post to poor understanding of combat operations ....

hellfire;dear sir
i was once! a part of PA, & i guss, i had a lovly ,war experince in KARGILL , i am certnly not trying to judge anything except your , expectations of your so, called highly trainned "CAT COMMANDOS" & thier actions in "mumbai terror attacks".
please dont try to judge people here with the readings, of thier few posts!
you never know , who are they?
ever you have been to any of "special training schools" of IA?
or its only that "paper lion " thing?
fighting in a built up area with riders of protection of historical monument and minimal civilian casualties does cause certain restricions but at the same time it gives the oppourtunity to execute the "commando action" with speed & accuracy?
"speed & accuracy" are the basic requirments of any, of the special forces in the world ?
but in case of "CAT COMMANDOS" they got the moves , but surly they lacking in "speed & accuracy" , which were the key requirments of a counter action against "MUMBAI LIKE TERRORISTS ATTACKS".
i cant really understand , what kind of help INDIA can give to US to capture or in the kill of "Baitullah Mehsud", for me its only , one of political stunts of Holbrooke, nothing more!

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Nato is deeper in its Afghan mire than Russia ever was

Two decades after the Soviet withdrawal, ever more resources are being poured into a war with scant chance of success

Jonathan Steele

The Guardian, Saturday 14 February 2009

Article history

Twenty years ago tomorrow the last Soviet units left Afghanistan after a nine-year intervention that took 15,000 soldiers' lives. As they crossed the river Oxus I was in the air above them, the only foreign journalist to fly to Kabul that day.

Russian friends in Moscow, where I was this newspaper's correspondent, doubted my sanity, convinced a bloodbath was bound to follow the Soviet exodus. I disagreed. The secular regime under Mohammed Najibullah that the Kremlin left behind had a firmer base than many outsiders realised, thanks in part to support from Kabulis who feared chaos and blood-letting if the mujahideen won the civil war.

Two decades later the ironies of America's war in Afghanistan are telling. When Richard Holbrooke, the new US envoy to the region, visited the country this week he may not have been aware of the Soviet anniversary. But the US-led intervention is already almost as long. At this stage of their war the Russians were preparing to leave. Now the US and Nato want to get further in, and if Barack Obama's plans for 30,000 extra US troops are met, along with efforts to get more from Nato, coalition forces will almost equal the 115,000 troops the Russians had at their peak.

Western casualties are considerably less, but Nato has been more successful. Like the Russians, the western alliance mainly occupies Kabul and provincial capitals. The countryside is vulnerable to attack or in the hands of the resistance - a mixture of Islamic fundamentalists, Pashtun nationalists, local tribal chiefs and mullahs, and Arab jihadis - just like the mujahideen who confronted the Russians. The difference is that the west and Pakistan supported and armed them in the 1980s. Now, using the profits of heroin-running, they are self-sustaining and harder to control.

Nato faces tougher challenges than the Russians. Twenty years ago the Taliban did not exist, suicide bombing was not in vogue, and the Afghan army and police were more effective. Kabul under Soviet rule was an oasis of calm, where girls went to school and unveiled young women attended university. The mujahideen fired occasional rockets into the city but caused too little damage to upset normal life. Note the contrast with today's siren-screaming armoured convoys and western offices hidden behind high walls and sandbags, and still the Taliban were able to attack three government buildings a few days ago.

The Soviet invasion violated international law and was condemned by the UN. But its goals were more modest than the US's in 2001. Moscow was not seeking regime change. It was trying to prop up a regime under threat from a mounting civil war. Although western hawks claimed the Kremlin planned to advance through Afghanistan to seize warm water ports in the Gulf, the true aim was limited. Moscow wanted to defend an allied government, contain the mujahideen (who were getting CIA support before Soviet troops invaded), and prevent Afghanistan becoming a pro-western bastion. This was shortly after the US was expelled from Iran and the Kremlin feared Washington wanted Afghanistan as its replacement.

Getting out was easier for Moscow than it will be for the US. International negotiations in Geneva gave the Kremlin the face-saver of "parallelism". The peace terms were that the Russians would leave when aid to the mujahideen ceased and an intra-Afghan dialogue was launched. This disguised any appearance of defeat. It even provided a good chance for the Afghan government to continue after Soviet troops withdrew. In fact, it lasted three more years.

The causes and consequences of the Soviet withdrawal and Najibullah's eventual fall have led to some of the phoniest myths of the cold war. Claims that US-provided Stinger missiles forced the Russians to give up and that this humiliation provoked the Soviet Union's collapse are nonsense. Moscow's ally Najibullah fell four months after the USSR died, when the Kremlin's new ruler, Boris Yeltsin, cut fuel supplies to the Afghan army and Abdul Rashid Dostum, the leading Uzbek commander, defected to the mujahideen. Until that moment, they had not captured and held a single city.

Another myth is that the west "walked away" after the Russians left. If only it had. Instead Washington and Pakistan broke the Geneva agreement by maintaining arms supplies to the mujahideen. They encouraged them to reject Najibullah's repeated efforts at national reconciliation. The mujahideen wanted all-out victory, which they eventually got, only to squander it in an orgy of artillery shelling that left Kabul in ruins and produced the anger that paved the way for the Taliban. If western governments are now paying a high price in Afghanistan, they have brought the disaster on themselves.

The Taliban will not drive Nato out militarily. The notion that Afghans always defeat foreigners is wrong. The real lesson of the Soviet war is that in Afghanistan political and cultural disunity can slide into massive and prolonged violence. Foreigners intervene at their peril.

Nato is in a cleft stick and the idea that, unlike Iraq, Afghanistan is the "right war" is a self-deluding trap. A military "surge", the favoured Obama policy, may produce short-term local advances but no sustainable improvement, and as yesterday's Guardian reported, it will cost the US and Britain enormous sums. Pouring in aid will take too long to win hearts and minds, and if normal practice is followed, the money will mainly go to foreign consultants and corrupt officials. Talking to the Taliban makes sense under Najibullah-style national reconciliation. But the Taliban themselves are disunited, with a host of local leaders and generational divisions between "new" and "old" Taliban. Worse still, since the war spilt into Pakistan's frontier regions, there are now Pakistani Taliban.

What of the better option, a phased Nato withdrawal? It will not produce benefits as clear or immediate as the US pull-out from Iraq. Most Iraqis never wanted the US in the first place. They know the destruction the invasion brought, have stepped back from sectarian war, and now have a government which has pressed Washington to set a timetable to leave. In Afghanistan the risks of a collapse of central rule and a long civil war are far greater.

j.steele@guardian.co.uk

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

The things some people so desperately wish to believe.

It would be better for all of you to march on your government and demand that they declare war on America, NATO, ISAF, the U.N., Afghanistan, and maybe India too.

You want to. You know you do. You REALLY want to.

There have been countless thousands of wet-dreams at this board alone of marching at the fore of a victorious Pakistani/Pashtu taliban alliance into Kabul and sending the afghan and Indian minions of America scurrying before the might of your righteous power.

Free yourselves from these shackles of aid and call a spade a spade. No amount of aid can save you and will only hasten the enriched escape of your current leaders once they skim their 10%.

No. Make open, manly war upon the Americans and others behind the uniform and flag of Pakistan to assert your perceived rights and position in this world. Earn by the sword what's heretofore been denied and teach all those in need of a lesson in proper humility to FEAR your powerful army...

I don't wish a red cent of my nation's money upon you. I fear it's misuse and I've sixty plus years of disastrously single-minded focus on Kashmir and India at the expense of your overall social development. It's caught up with you and no amount of civil aid will arrest that condition much less reverse such in time to save yourselves.

Until you've EXHAUSTED yourselves of these mis-begotten notions of denied glory and embrace the hard business of nationhood, we're wasting our money supporting a likely enemy.

I'm reminded here constantly that no nation has suffered more. I say Afghanistan has. I'm reminded that your army has lost over a thousand men in this war. I'll remind you that you've done so on your own soil and that has been over the course of seven years. That's less than one reinforced battalion.

I'm real unimpressed with everything except the amazing conquest of FATA and SWAT. That's impressive.

Were it the Indians, though, you'd be charging with pitchforks, stones, and wooden spears if need be.

I prefer that we quit tap-dancing around this and begin to ask the simple, salient questions of whether there's any way in hell you can be a good ally to Afghanistan's stabilization effort now underway and whether any aid, civil or military, rendered now would make a difference?

My answers are you're our enemy and can't help and even if you weren't additional aid isn't the answer and wouldn't arrive in time nor with sufficient impact to affect matters for the better.

Look S2 i agree with you that Americas war against these weardos is right but the way its doin it is counter productive and provoking anger among every class of Pakistani society which indeed will have drastic affects. We dont want to cut our ties with America .

We have strategik ties with America .We even preffer to buy American Milletery Hardware . Many Pakistanis live and even now dream to go to america for their better future. But slowly things are getting worse. The way your conducting war in afghanistan is promoting extreemism in our country.

Many here hate US because of its intervention in our politics because of drone killing 10 innnocent civilians for one lowgrade suspect because of Army and ISI being malighned for the sacrafices they made for war on terror , Because of US supporting Indian activities against Pakistan. India is our traditinal enemy and you cant deny the Fact that our enemy's friend is considered by many here as our own enemy .

We are still supporting you in Afghanistan but times may come when it becomes difficult to continue our support for US.

US is a superpower. We cant fight it and then survive. But we cant also let extreemism rise to that level at which things might get out of hand . US is on path of turning Pakistan into birthplace of extreemism . And nobody wants that to happen and to stop letting that to happen every possible step would be taken.

 

[S-2]

"Many here hate US because of its intervention in our politics because of drone killing 10 innnocent civilians for one lowgrade suspect"

The defeated afghani taliban army and it's leader-Omar came to your lands long before the first PREDATOR flight. From there they make war daily upon the afghan people and our ISAF soldiers.

That shouldn't have been the case in late 2001 and it sure as hell shouldn't be today.

Magically, almost no Pakistanis include this salient fact in their sanctimonious outrage about "sovereignty".

Until you take the war to these men in definitive terms, it'll be my belief after many years of closely watching, reading, and talking to those even closer than I that Pakistan is an enemy of NATO's stabilization mandate for Afghanistan.

I refuse to believe that the world's seventh largest army cannot take battle to these men in a sustained, elemental, and determined fashion. As they can, therefore they WON'T.

That singular point dominates my thinking.

We'll offer aid with caveats. Please do the right thing and turn it down rather than have us later cut off aid for failure to meet the agreed terms. It'd be best for all concerned that we move beyond that stage as it's otherwise utterly predictable, wouldn't you agree?

We aid, you remain stagnant, we complain, you remain stagnant.

Neither need that. Turn the aid down when it comes and go your own way.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

The defeated afghani taliban army and it's leader-Omar came to your lands long before the first PREDATOR flight. From there they make war daily upon the afghan people and our ISAF soldiers.

That shouldn't have been the case in late 2001 and it sure as hell shouldn't be today.

Magically, almost no Pakistanis include this salient fact in their sanctimonious outrage about "sovereignty".

Until you take the war to these men in definitive terms, it'll be my belief after many years of closely watching, reading, and talking to those even closer than I that Pakistan is an enemy of NATO's stabilization mandate for Afghanistan.

I refuse to believe that the world's seventh largest army cannot take battle to these men in a sustained, elemental, and determined fashion. As they can, therefore they WON'T.

That singular point dominates my thinking.

We'll offer aid with caveats. Please do the right thing and turn it down rather than have us later cut off aid for failure to meet the agreed terms. It'd be best for all concerned that we move beyond that stage as it's otherwise utterly predictable, wouldn't you agree?

We aid, you remain stagnant, we complain, you remain stagnant.

Neither need that. Turn the aid down when it comes and go your own way.

Frankly speaking many people welcomed the aid when it was announced But when the condition to stop support hostile desighns against India was attached no one liked it and i am 100% sure that Neither milletery nor the Civilian Gov will accept it.
It will be accepted only if that condition is removed and all all the Inda's terror network in Afganistan is cracked down in transparent manner.
We have been at war with India scince the Partion. And ISI has been using some of the talibanic resources against India. Simillarly India is also using some of anti Pakistani elements against Pakistan through its consulates in Afghanistan which actually widened the trust deficit btw US and Pakistani milletary commanders .If US is really concern abt the milletery ops in tribal areas than it must show comitment to shut down Indian anti Pakistan terror network in Afghanistan. Only then Our milletery would Launch a war at those people at full throttle and belive me we can wipe them out within two months or even less . But this would only come when US promisses that it would really take care of Indian Activities in Afghanistan in a tranparent way .I am sure if that happens than nobody in our milletery is that stupid to go agaisnt US .
You have to agree with me that More than 80% of sucide bombings in Pakistan are desighned by RAW activists operating in Afghanistan.
Unless US cracksdown the Indian activities in Afghanistan in a truely transparent way Our Milletery is bound to Halt All operations in terrerist sancturies in Tribal Areas.

India is a key to all you problems . Give it a twist and see the results turn upside down.

 

[Hellfire]

hellfire;dear sir
i was once! a part of PA, & i guss, i had a lovly ,war experince in KARGILL , i am certnly not trying to judge anything except your , expectations of your so, called highly trainned "CAT COMMANDOS" & thier actions in "mumbai terror attacks".
please dont try to judge people here with the readings, of thier few posts!
you never know , who are they?
ever you have been to any of "special training schools" of IA?
or its only that "paper lion " thing?
fighting in a built up area with riders of protection of historical monument and minimal civilian casualties does cause certain restricions but at the same time it gives the oppourtunity to execute the "commando action" with speed & accuracy?
"speed & accuracy" are the basic requirments of any, of the special forces in the world ?
but in case of "CAT COMMANDOS" they got the moves , but surly they lacking in "speed & accuracy" , which were the key requirments of a counter action against "MUMBAI LIKE TERRORISTS ATTACKS".
i cant really understand , what kind of help INDIA can give to US to capture or in the kill of "Baitullah Mehsud", for me its only , one of political stunts of Holbrooke, nothing more!

oh sir am not really "judging" you .... your post was replied to on purely a point basis and rebutted as such. being ex-PA one would definitely expect you to understand that any military operation is subordinate to the political directive guiding it and one has to operate under the conditions imposed upon him by the political master. But then there has been a history of subversion of the political authority by PA at its whim and as such I maybe mistaken that this concept might be something that is a norm in Pakistan while conducting any operation.

In addition you have displayed a lack of knowledge when you have tried to rebutt on basis of the so call "CAT COMMANDOS" what you refer to is NSG (specifically SAG) which was involved in the operations and which is exclusively a counter terror force meant to deal with terror acts within the country under the control of GoI and bound to riders, if any, issued by it. On the other hand SF and SG (Special Group - offshoot of SFF now renamed as VIKAS regiments) are totally different units. So please be clarified about this point. Kindly do have some idea about force employment in India before trying to rebutt it.

The commando ops you refer to are ideal in conditions where you have a relatively free hand in execution and dont have any constraints imposed upon you. There were plenty in this case mimimal casulaties being another ......

about my being a chair lion or having any idea of what I talk, I shall leave it best to your imaginations and deductions ..... but one thing is sure, am not out to post crap and then defend it by claiming credentials which I dont have .......

as for what kind of help? well it maybe in terms of HUMINT etc as SF units are operating both in afghanistan and pakistan .... (like your SSG is doing the same in India)

 

[Hellfire]

Frankly speaking many people welcomed the aid when it was announced But when the condition to stop support hostile desighns against India was attached no one liked it and i am 100% sure that Neither milletery nor the Civilian Gov will accept it.
It will be accepted only if that condition is removed and all all the Inda's terror network in Afganistan is cracked down in transparent manner.
We have been at war with India scince the Partion. And ISI has been using some of the talibanic resources against India. Simillarly India is also using some of anti Pakistani elements against Pakistan through its consulates in Afghanistan which actually widened the trust deficit btw US and Pakistani milletary commanders .If US is really concern abt the milletery ops in tribal areas than it must show comitment to shut down Indian anti Pakistan terror network in Afghanistan. Only then Our milletery would Launch a war at those people at full throttle and belive me we can wipe them out within two months or even less . But this would only come when US promisses that it would really take care of Indian Activities in Afghanistan in a tranparent way .I am sure if that happens than nobody in our milletery is that stupid to go agaisnt US .
You have to agree with me that More than 80% of sucide bombings in Pakistan are desighned by RAW activists operating in Afghanistan.
Unless US cracksdown the Indian activities in Afghanistan in a truely transparent way Our Milletery is bound to Halt All operations in terrerist sancturies in Tribal Areas.

India is a key to all you problems . Give it a twist and see the results turn upside down.

frankly pakistan is in no position today either militarily or economically to bargain ....... and US would rather twist who needs to be and not who is not required to be

 

[batmannow]

oh sir am not really "judging" you .... your post was replied to on purely a point basis and rebutted as such. being ex-PA one would definitely expect you to understand that any military operation is subordinate to the political directive guiding it and one has to operate under the conditions imposed upon him by the political master. But then there has been a history of subversion of the political authority by PA at its whim and as such I maybe mistaken that this concept might be something that is a norm in Pakistan while conducting any operation.

In addition you have displayed a lack of knowledge when you have tried to rebutt on basis of the so call "CAT COMMANDOS" what you refer to is NSG (specifically SAG) which was involved in the operations and which is exclusively a counter terror force meant to deal with terror acts within the country under the control of GoI and bound to riders, if any, issued by it. On the other hand SF and SG (Special Group - offshoot of SFF now renamed as VIKAS regiments) are totally different units. So please be clarified about this point. Kindly do have some idea about force employment in India before trying to rebutt it.

The commando ops you refer to are ideal in conditions where you have a relatively free hand in execution and dont have any constraints imposed upon you. There were plenty in this case mimimal casulaties being another ......

about my being a chair lion or having any idea of what I talk, I shall leave it best to your imaginations and deductions ..... but one thing is sure, am not out to post crap and then defend it by claiming credentials which I dont have .......

as for what kind of help? well it maybe in terms of HUMINT etc as SF units are operating both in afghanistan and pakistan .... (like your SSG is doing the same in India)

hellfire;dear sir!

Q. being ex-PA one would definitely expect you to understand that any military operation is subordinate to the political directive guiding it and one has to operate under the conditions imposed upon him by the political master. But then there has been a history of subversion of the political authority by PA at its whim and as such I maybe mistaken that this concept might be something that is a norm in Pakistan while conducting any operation.

A.let me clear your mind a bit,most of the timmes PA keep secret, its opreational activities,from our political authority , you can name it ! all the opreations against "soviet forces", even the "kargill war" & its whole opreational activities never been discussed with the prime minster thn?
he was told about the basics but , not all opreational activities!
so therefore your , info about PA is very wrong.
its good to have you on fourm , your are a educated , & somehow logical brain but , many of your knowledge is purly bassed on the the things , which you read on line or , from the books.
remember i asked you , a question ? did ever been to a SOS( special opreation school), you never gave any answer ?
i asked that question just because , i felt that your , info IS BASSED on the books or the articals , its surly not a info FROM a EX/ARMED forces , my dear sir!
using all the combat skills with "lighiting speed & perfect accuracy" within a given time limit & to take enemy by surprize called "special opreation"? i guss , we are not disscussing political leadership & its role?
let me explore you, something !
i had faced your special forces , in special kargill war!your '70 Infantry Brigade" or "9 Mahar Regiment"what really happeed in "Point 5090-metres in Dras(tiger hill)" or in "Point 5300-metres and 5329-metres in the Batalik sector" just find the people from above mentioned brigades or Regiments & try to learn something trully practical instead.
IT WAS JUST 5 UNITS OF PAKARMY, WHO YOU GUYS WERE FIGHTING , WITH 4 DIVISIONS OF IA?
In the last of my posts in this thread i did mentioned that , they got the moves but still they lack in "speed & accuracy"
Now, comming back to subject !

what you think , INDIAN SPECIAL FORCES are better trained & better equiped thn of US SPECIAL FORCES fighting in afghanistan?
dear , sir
I am really not underestimating the capabillities of INDIA SF's, nor i am undermining thier skills , but its MISSION IMPOSIBLE for them , with no knowledge of languages, no know how of roads links, its only putting , those brave mans in the jaws of death with no way out.
i hope you understand, politics US needs someone's shoulder to fire the shots in afghanistan, where after all the B1's B52's, PREDATORS , f-22 , deep bunker busters bombs , MARINES CROPS, money bribes everything! they are lossing why?
no, knowledge of area, no knowledge of languges & no knowledge of culture & religion & tribes, i guss its better , that india should stop its 18 terror camps , which were openned , in afghanistan with sgin bords mentioning them as diplomatic consulates & let INDIAN SPECIAL FORCES , do thier basic jobs, not to train BLA terrorists INSTEAD?
i can asure you that our SSG wasnt involved , in any of terrorists activities in INDIA, I guss , both RAW & ISI never send thier armed forces personels , for the activities you had mentioned, with poverty leveling highst levels in both countries, its ezy to find poors to do the job , without any diplomatic difficulties, & prooflessness?
It also shows , how much is your mind effected from the day to day bias articals & the cheap books, with antipakistan & antiISI propaganda.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

frankly pakistan is in no position today either militarily or economically to bargain ....... and US would rather twist who needs to be and not who is not required to be

This needs no cooments and debate .
Get some education abt GeoPolitical Environment of this reagion.

 

[Hellfire]

batmannow:

Sir.

A.let me clear your mind a bit,most of the timmes PA keep secret, its opreational activities,from our political authority , you can name it ! all the opreations against "soviet forces", even the "kargill war" & its whole opreational activities never been discussed with the prime minster thn?
he was told about the basics but , not all opreational activities!

I did point out that to be the case. A military op is planned and executed based on political directive in demoracies. But then as I pointed out PA has history of undermining it so SOP may differ there, a statement you have concurred with I see. As for information to PM of Afghan war, let me refresh you that at the time it was a military dictator who was in power (someone known as Gen Zia-ul-Haq) so the question of not telling the PM about anti-Soviet operations is irrelevant and if you mean to say information was withheld from the General then you are far off course. Also you claim facts of Kargil being similar. Well Gen Musharraf claimed to have kept the PM abreast of situations at every minute. So either you dont know what you are saying or he does not know. As for your iminent defense in terms of emplacement of your weapons/type of force employed etc, that even the Brigade Commander is not told when he gives a task to a CO of a unit to achieve.



so therefore your , info about PA is very wrong.

actually no. I did highlight the probability of PA not acting under political directive.

its good to have you on fourm , your are a educated , & somehow logical brain but , many of your knowledge is purly bassed on the the things , which you read on line or , from the books.

thank you for the compliments sir. yes am pretty well read but not online. you are welcome to initiate a military discussion where we can discuss concept of operations in any sector you choose to. Am sure you shall find am able to keep up to quite an extent.


remember i asked you , a question ? did ever been to a SOS( special opreation school), you never gave any answer ?

if you want to discuss any training school of special or regular forces, name that and we can discuss.


i asked that question just because , i felt that your , info IS BASSED on the books or the articals , its surly not a info FROM a EX/ARMED forces , my dear sir!

I did say am not going to claim what am not. Am a dotor by profession and my profile defines me fully.

using all the combat skills with "lighiting speed & perfect accuracy" within a given time limit & to take enemy by surprize called "special opreation"? i guss , we are not disscussing political leadership & its role?
let me explore you, something !

I agree but my point was political directives leading onto discription of military objectives.

i had faced your special forces , in special kargill war!your '70 Infantry Brigade" or "9 Mahar Regiment"what really happeed in "Point 5090-metres in Dras(tiger hill)" or in "Point 5300-metres and 5329-metres in the Batalik sector" just find the people from above mentioned brigades or Regiments & try to learn something trully practical instead.
IT WAS JUST 5 UNITS OF PAKARMY, WHO YOU GUYS WERE FIGHTING , WITH 4 DIVISIONS OF IA?

Ok what part of 70 Infantry Bde/9 MAHAR is SF sir? Both are regular infantry formations. What arm exactly were you in sir? Please please do not say infantry.

Also am sure you dont really need a lengthy discussion on mountain and high altitude warfare and the ratio needed to be achieved to successfully attack a prepared defensive position in a terrain where no defilade is available to the attacking troops. In addition you really dont want me to sit and explain to you the reasons why this high ratio has to be achieved for extremely slow moving troops who are attacking a feature.

In the last of my posts in this thread i did mentioned that , they got the moves but still they lack in "speed & accuracy"

really sir? then why are you sitting below the glacier in Siachen till date in spite of being at war with India over it since 1984 whiile having an advantage of supplies coming by road right till base camp while India does air maintenance from Pratapur? why have not the "crack" PA troops managed to dislodge IA from features which have hardly 7-10 men each (section level) defending, till date?


what you think , INDIAN SPECIAL FORCES are better trained & better equiped thn of US SPECIAL FORCES fighting in afghanistan?
dear , sir
I am really not underestimating the capabillities of INDIA SF's, nor i am undermining thier skills , but its MISSION IMPOSIBLE for them , with no knowledge of languages, no know how of roads links, its only putting , those brave mans in the jaws of death with no way out.

actually you are now beating a tactical retreat dear sir.I am quite aware of Indian 9 SF ops in Chitral region during Kargil itself .......so really please enough with what you have given out. You cant really differentiate a bit between specialised forces/regular forces, then you go on to obfuscate things by claiming PA antecedants


i hope you understand, politics US needs someone's shoulder to fire the shots in afghanistan, where after all the B1's B52's, PREDATORS , f-22 , deep bunker busters bombs , MARINES CROPS, money bribes everything! they are lossing why?

and again you make the mistake of a novice ..... air power employment in high altitude is severely restricted by operating ceiling of said ACs as Kargil proved with shooting down of Mi-17, Mig-21, Mig27 leading to higher employment of ACs for protection and reducing the accuracy. Cost per weapon/benefit obtained for Paveway kits is too high for frequent employment in moutainous terrain.

i can asure you that our SSG wasnt involved , in any of terrorists activities in INDIA, I guss , both RAW & ISI never send thier armed forces personels , for the activities you had mentioned, with poverty leveling highst levels in both countries, its ezy to find poors to do the job , without any diplomatic difficulties, & prooflessness?

am sure they were not involved in 1965/71 also


It also shows , how much is your mind effected from the day to day bias articals & the cheap books, with antipakistan & antiISI propaganda.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for vote of faith