US wants India's help in fighting Baitullah Mehsud: Holbrooke

[RescueRanger]

The things some people so desperately wish to believe.

It would be better for all of you to march on your government and demand that they declare war on America, NATO, ISAF, the U.N., Afghanistan, and maybe India too.

You want to. You know you do. You REALLY want to.

There have been countless thousands of wet-dreams at this board

S-2, i had thought higher of you... The only real wet dream is of the American "holier then thou" white knight, bent on bringing democracy to the savages of the east.

Your statement reminded me of an American movie "Team America", how true. Have you ever heard a song called Civilization by Danny Kaye? (Have a listen:

)

How very apt dont you think?


Before you talk about us exhausting ourselves in what ever conflict you dreamt up whilst enjoying "hiati's" finest, may i bring to your attention that as of April 7, 2009, the total U.S. federal debt was $11,152,772,833,835.89 (Jesus, i cant even begin to count how many doughnuts that would buy).

Tend to your back yard and we will tend to ours. The problem beings because as American's (you belive, the world is your back yard). The rightous few striking down those who are un-wrothy of existance (that is your wet dream). You know it is .

As the famous proverb goes: Many of us believe that wrongs aren't wrong if it's done by nice people like ourselves. keep fooling yourself America, WWIII is not far away.

 

[Hellfire]

Before you talk about us exhausting ourselves in what ever conflict you dreamt up whilst enjoying "hiati's" finest, may i bring to your attention that as of April 7, 2009, the total U.S. federal debt was $11,152,772,833,835.89 (Jesus, i cant even begin to count how many doughnuts that would buy).

As the famous proverb goes: Many of us believe that wrongs aren't wrong if it's done by nice people like ourselves. keep fooling yourself America, WWIII is not far away.

Sir.

Am sure you shall appreciate that inspite of the public debt being so huge, US economy does not have dire prospects yet. Layoffs have been result of a credit system collapse but restructuring of the public debt can be done at any time in proportion to the need of the hour.


Also am sure you shall appreciate that at the moment the need of the hour is to increase public spending as one of the ways to re-stimulate the economy as currency circulation in the system will allow for the economy to restart as people again come into money. While it shall definitely add to the public debt as I pointed out the same can be negated by necessary fiscal measures once the economy is back on the feet.

US is largest trading partner for whole loads of nations as also biggest consumer for products from lots of nations especially south asian in terms of garments an industry which has been worst hit by this recent economic melt down. However, to compare Pakistani economic woes to US WOES WILL BE A GROSS misrepresentatin of the situation.

Thanks

 

[RescueRanger]

Sir.

Am sure you shall appreciate that inspite of the public debt being so huge, US economy does not have dire prospects yet. Layoffs have been result of a credit system collapse but restructuring of the public debt can be done at any time in proportion to the need of the hour.


Also am sure you shall appreciate that at the moment the need of the hour is to increase public spending as one of the ways to re-stimulate the economy as currency circulation in the system will allow for the economy to restart as people again come into money. While it shall definitely add to the public debt as I pointed out the same can be negated by necessary fiscal measures once the economy is back on the feet.

US is largest trading partner for whole loads of nations as also biggest consumer for products from lots of nations especially south asian in terms of garments an industry which has been worst hit by this recent economic melt down. However, to compare Pakistani economic woes to US WOES WILL BE A GROSS misrepresentatin of the situation.

Thanks

Ah my friend i appreciate the situation better than most, but was the point i was trying to make lost in statistics? Surely not, did you selectively choose one part of my arguement to construct a rebuttal?

Surely you can appreciate the reason for my post, and i am CERTIAN it is a valid point.

Thanks.

 

[batmannow]

batmannow


dear sir!


THANKS for accepting the truth, from my part !

you are very welcome. am willing to accept what is true as true and what is not as not.


i guss, what ever information you are trying to explore here are mostly from, your father , well for this purpose, i would like to salute him , for his debriefings to you, but as a ex-PA we arent allowed to do so.

actually contrary to your guess work, its very much not so. IA also has same policy so nothing coming my way for use on net from those areas .... what is posted is out of my limited experience ........

can you ask him , more info about 199 indian soldiers , who were shot in thier eyes by a PAKARMY SNIPER, i realy like to know about them , cause i was there , but we cant really know about the reality, me & my fellow companymen , we counted 400, with every bullet we fired , but what we got is 199.

now this is new. can you provide link so can read about him to gain more knowledge to flaunt? seems he has beaten Vasilley zaitsev, ludmilla pavlichenko, billy singh and almost caught up with simo hayha, yet remains unknown which is unfair ..... no doubt he may have got the kills of a higher count .... but the number is too absurd for kills ...... its not correlated and as for true indian casualties [KIAs] its what the official figure as the bodies were flown to palam airport and there was a media presence there to record the same.


let me ,add a bit & confrim the bravry by a young indian officer, who we captured with his patrol party 5 of soldiers,Lt. Saurabh Kalia of 4 JAT Regiment of the Indian Army , he was a brave soul!

i reserve my comment on this

I with my 2 ssg soldiers, we traped them & later they led down thier weapons, & remaind under investigation !

apart from being a tall and false claim [radio intercepts confirmed presence of about 2 section worth of troops in the area of bajrang post at the time] even if i was to humor your contention, a ratio of 3:5 in mountains is not a great ratio which highlights your speedy and accurate skills. on the contrary I would say it was pretty ordinary as a force of 5-12 people on a hill top can tie down over a coy worth of troops.(am sure being nli/SSG you can appreciate this)

this is one more example of my tactical marvel of military professionalism." , moutain warfare (being ex-PA)?

that is why your rationale of questioning need for deployment of forces ...... and negating the linear threat posed ........

well, i never said that gen. musharaf hided everything from the primminster (NAWAZ SHARIF), I SAID YOU HE, TOLD THE PRIMMINSTER about the mission ,but not the ALL OF opreational activities, & plans?

yet you chose to argue over this point where in my first post was that the military operations/parameter is defined by political objective (even Kargil was with a political objective and NOT military) yet you continued arguing over what...?

mohammad khan junejo was a very , noble & very much very vibriant prime minster of his times, that,s why , he was sacked by GEN. zia -ul- haq! because he was insisting , the president of pakistan, for the investigations of "OGRI CAMP" incident! yes if he can know the "OGRI CAMP", surlly he had the knowledge of things , in the era of GEN . zia-ul- aq? he was the second most informed person at that time! really you know very well. enough of your knowledge

i agree to your assesment of his .... and this is in continuation of above .... so answered above, my point stands. gen zia could not have been out of loop of ANYTHING!!!!

well, this blog wasnt enough ? yes it wasnt!
i can get it , from other sources, but the result would be same? right!

yet you chose to post a blog. next you shall quote the India Doctrine as proof for RAW involvement. get real sir


for that , part i think you should be on some midecal fourm , not on a defence fourm , dear doctor, i was what ,i was but its over for now?
its incredible to see a doctor , clamming to be a professional & expert of mountain warfare ?

can you highlight my post where I have claimed to be that? anywhere sir? if your ability to comprehend is limited by your high altitude exposure ..... then it cant be helped can it?



a query which as ex-PA you should know the answer to (for referrence you can refer to US Army FM 3-97.6 pertaining to operations in the mountains, something your officer corps uses quite frequently)

dam i know it! dont try to play doc!

by the way, i was a part of NLI


and yet you gave such a poor account of your understanding of the basic ops. while you can now deviate and do a pitch and roll [something I suspect is GoP position] as evident till now ....... I am not the one trying to 'play' as you say ...... and for once ......


anyways am tiring of this ...... the closing lines are yours .....


regards

hellfire; dear sir!
thanks for your gentlmen reply

either you were with nli or ssg decide and confirm for if you were in nli then you cant claim ssg or if ssg you cant be nli at the time ... so either you were on deputation or not
let me, clear your educated & full of medics mind!
dear sir, in pakistan army any one can go for ssg training , commisioned or non- commisioned officers, soliders. with regular SSG units OR can be back in thier parent formations,after completing the SSG course!

SSG officers must have at least two years of prior military experience and volunteer from other formations for three-year assignments with the SSG; NCO and enlisted men volunteer from other formations to serve permanently in the SSG. All trainees must participate in an eight-month SSG course at Cherta. The SSG course course emphasizes tough physical conditioning. Included is a 36-mile march in 12 hours, a grueling requirement that was first institutionalized by 19 Baluch. They are also required to run 5 miles in 40 minutes with full gear. Following the SSG course, trainees must volunteer for Airborne School. The course last four weeks, with wings awarded after seven (five day, two night) jumps. none SSG airborne students only have to complete a the five day jump.

Many in the SSG school are selected for additional specialist training. A HALO course is given at Peshawar with a 'skydiver' tab awarded after 5 freefall jumps. A "Mountain Warfare" qualification badge is given after completing a course at the Mountain Warfare School in Abbotabad; and a "Combat Diver" badge is awarded awarded for the course held by the Naval Special Services Group SSGN at Karachi. three classes of combat swimmers were recognized: 1st class to those completing an 18-mile swim; 2nd class to those finishing a 12-mile swim; and 3rd class for a 6-mile swim. SSG regularly sends students to the US for special warfare and airborne training. later on due to Siachen crisis, a Snow and High Altitude Warfare School was also established.


so my dear, doctor commando, sir
so , i can be in NLI & i can be a SSG same time

i guss , its enough for you & for your due education on PAKISTAN DEFENCE FOURM , to stop claiming as a "Mountain Warfare" expert ,& with out any knowlege of PAKARMY!
Well , as USA is trying to get out from AFGHNISTAN , INDIA is trying to form a alliance with IRAN ,to domminate THE REGION with the hidden US support US wants India's help in fighting Baitullah Mehsud: Holbrooke was a part of this unlogical plan , which can be seen very good on the papers but in the reality , its just a junk !
i guss, its the time when INDIA start playing its due role , by uniting peoples & govts against every threat to all of the region.

in a realistic, approch HOW CAN INDIAN FORCES survive the , dangerous & best of the bests most expert Mountain Warfare fighting force of the world!, THE TALIBANS, AT the same time pakistan is facing the same threat because of its support to TALIBANS enemies , it would be a very wellcome for pakistan to support TALIBANS against INDIAN forces in afghanistan & to trun the anger of the TALIBANS , towards INDIAN forces.

you can write as much as you like my dear doctor commando sir, because i belive that a doctor could be a commando!:

but , the history tells us , THAT after the defeats of UK , USSR & now USA +ITS NATO allies in afghanistan , afghanistan will remain a GRAVE YARD for the aggressors & will continue to remain a GRAVEYARD for any one , who dares to think bad for PAKISTAN.pakistan:

anyways am not tiring of this ...... the closing lines are yours .....

 

[Hellfire]

batmannow


Dear Sir.


let me, clear your educated & full of medics mind!

truly said

dear sir, in pakistan army any one can go for ssg training , commisioned or non- commisioned officers, soliders. with regular SSG units OR can be back in thier parent formations,after completing the SSG course!


I know sir. Its something which is similar all over the world as also in IA. The query was specific in nature, either you were in NLI at the said time interval or in SSG, you can not claim being in both as offrs are sent on deputation and the day they leave for SSG on deputation, they are deemed as being in that and NOT in any parent unit for the time duration. Although it may differ in PA I grant but that is the usual trend in ALL armies all over and so had asked specifically.

SSG officers must have at least two years of prior military experience and volunteer from other formations for three-year assignments with the SSG; NCO and enlisted men volunteer from other formations to serve permanently in the SSG. All trainees must participate in an eight-month SSG course at Cherta. The SSG course course emphasizes tough physical conditioning. Included is a 36-mile march in 12 hours, a grueling requirement that was first institutionalized by 19 Baluch. They are also required to run 5 miles in 40 minutes with full gear. Following the SSG course, trainees must volunteer for Airborne School. The course last four weeks, with wings awarded after seven (five day, two night) jumps. none SSG airborne students only have to complete a the five day jump.

Many in the SSG school are selected for additional specialist training. A HALO course is given at Peshawar with a 'skydiver' tab awarded after 5 freefall jumps. A "Mountain Warfare" qualification badge is given after completing a course at the Mountain Warfare School in Abbotabad; and a "Combat Diver" badge is awarded awarded for the course held by the Naval Special Services Group SSGN at Karachi. three classes of combat swimmers were recognized: 1st class to those completing an 18-mile swim; 2nd class to those finishing a 12-mile swim; and 3rd class for a 6-mile swim. SSG regularly sends students to the US for special warfare and airborne training. later on due to Siachen crisis, a Snow and High Altitude Warfare School was also established.


so my dear, doctor commando, sir
so , i can be in NLI & i can be a SSG same time


You could have just posted this link for this sir.

Special Service Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And avoided wasting all that time in typing an easily googled article.

As for you being both NLI and SSG at the same time, I dont think you can be but as I pointed in my earlier post, things may vary in PA. Have met a few PA personnel at Ft. Benning, Georgia for US Army Ranger Course who have gone on to be with SSG, so know they have similar training and organistaion.

i guss , its enough for you & for your due education on PAKISTAN DEFENCE FOURM , to stop claiming as a "Mountain Warfare" expert ,& with out any knowlege of PAKARMY!

Ah sir never did claim it did I? Where? Please show one link where I have claimed to be one. I just pointed out the inconsistency in your having claimed to have operated in Mountains in Kargil and yet questioning te rationale for high ratio of troops employed-that is all. And since you said ex-PA I just asked you to open the FM which I KNOW is used by PA and go through it so that you can refresh your basics about dominating heights, routes of approach, axes of approach etc etc and correlate with the lack of adequate defilades in the terrain of Kargil-Dras-Gurez and the need to employ large number of troops.

Also you had claimed about tech superiority of US not being helpful. You know (from your experiences) that the ballistics in high altitude are not according to your text books/manuals and the accuracy of so called high precision munitions is also suspect at times due to parameters of aerodynamics.

At the same time parabollic trajectory or air dropped weapons are not as effective as the same being used in flat trajectory due to defences being usually being prepared under overhangings/outcroppings to give overhead protection. So the only way to get a kill probability of greater than 70% is to hit flat (the reason why FH-77s were dismantelled and manually carried by IA arty units to be used in flat fire role)

In addition the opreational parameters being subjected to poilitcal directives in India is further enhanced by the example of non-usage of napalm/airfuel munitions which had been prohibited by political directive in their wisdom(which I dont know).Am sure you can appreciate the effectiveness of this line of munition in fire missions in high altitude regions. If not can always elaborate on what I meant.

Well , as USA is trying to get out from AFGHNISTAN , INDIA is trying to form a alliance with IRAN ,to domminate THE REGION with the hidden US support US wants India's help in fighting Baitullah Mehsud: Holbrooke was a part of this unlogical plan , which can be seen very good on the papers but in the reality , its just a junk !

The key lies in "boots on ground" theory. Initially the US used extensive air power to drive Taliban from majority of the area but in classical calusewitz style which says "never engage an enemy for too long otherwise he learns from it and betters you" or thereabouts, the Taliban was able to adopt and take advantage of less number of troops on ground, who did not hold the ground. The US in full credit understood and today is following what I would say IA and PA have done for decades, hold key features to deny approach and dominate the surrounding regions. The process is definitely in earlier stages and ongoing and as such can not be termed as successful/failure.

The only interest for India is in the remotest of possibility of Pakistan failing as a state.Then wisdom dictates taking the war to the enemy and fighting it in their territory and not ours. PA today, as I have oft said, is our greatest ally and Pakistan our last defense against this threat and I personally am hoping they live up to what I think of them and give a sound drubbing to this idiocy in form of taliban which is really screwing up a perfectly good and sound religion for its own use.


i guss, its the time when INDIA start playing its due role , by uniting peoples & govts against every threat to all of the region.

Sir I share your sentiment on this. Alas we both as a nation suffer from idiotic politicians. Difference is your army gets tired and kicks some behinds once in a while, we dont. We should learn something from PA here.

in a realistic, approch HOW CAN INDIAN FORCES survive the , dangerous & best of the bests most expert Mountain Warfare fighting force of the world!, THE TALIBANS, AT the same time pakistan is facing the same threat because of its support to TALIBANS enemies , it would be a very wellcome for pakistan to support TALIBANS against INDIAN forces in afghanistan & to trun the anger of the TALIBANS , towards INDIAN forces.

Any indian intervention at this stage wil lbe a glee for PA and ISI. I agree. That is why IA will not intervene now.Its a last resort, whatever any gentleman sitting in US may say or hope.

you can write as much as you like my dear doctor commando sir, because i belive that a doctor could be a commando!:

I am not that and I am not claiming that



anyways am not tiring of this ...... the closing lines are yours .....

In that case I await your response (just hoping the mods dont tire and kick me )

 

[Hellfire]

Ah my friend i appreciate the situation better than most, but was the point i was trying to make lost in statistics? Surely not, did you selectively choose one part of my arguement to construct a rebuttal?

Surely you can appreciate the reason for my post, and i am CERTIAN it is a valid point.

Thanks.

I guess I get what you were trying to say now, probably took the statistics in.

Thanks

 

[S-2]

Thanks for your reply.

Try not to address economic matters. You've no expertise there whatsoever and it shows. Simply-if we go down, everybody will go down. EVERYBODY. The global market is that interconnected and we intended as such. The principle which underlines that simple fact is comparative advantage.

If you understand that tiny but important economic concept-comparative advantage, then you understand everything you need about American foreign policy. Note that I didn't say global economic but "foreign" policy. You clearly don't, however, as evidenced by your sophomoric comment. Nuff said unless you care to itch that scab.

As for the rest of your "comments", Rescue Ranger, I'd be content were your country today to decide that it intended to divorce it's affairs from America and NATO completely. That would be an entirely reasonable outcome for myself. Both sides need to learn to live without each other. I believe that we'll do fine and that there can be an Afghanistan solution which doesn't include Pakistan. That may even be necessary.

Should we have to part, it'll likely be as enemies. I make no bones about that and understand that your proxy armies will be a continuing issue. Those proxies already pose a severe threat, though, so we lose nothing and if that meant we'd be at war with your regular forces, so be it.

Finally, your desire for a W.W. III reveals your fundamental impotency. Clearly that entails many powerful nations beside Pakistan making war against America. No doubt you'll need all of them to achieve your ambition.

You must imagine yourselves quite popular?

I can see it now-Proud Pakistan standing lonely against the mighty great Satan. An epic struggle as our minion-slaves, the afghanis and Indians surge forward in the countless millions as we stand behind them with whips beating them.

Driven by fear and lust together, they viciously charge only to be repelled by your holy warriors imbued with the divine blessing denied to our craven dupes. Still, the tide sweeps onward...

The great nations of earth, recognizing the moment has come from this singular and heroic act of defiance, rush to your aid-ashamed for leaving you alone and bare to our drooling rabid fangs and clutching, grasping claws.
Care to toss in some sweet muslim belles for our semi-ignorant gorilla rapist-soldiers...? Helps the imagry as you guys can be kinda funny with your sex obsessions and sorta rounds out the story altogether.

Can you start by getting the Chinese to quit sending Zardari home empty-handed with peanuts. Then I'll be more able to see this grand alliance.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting though.

Thanks.

 

[XYON]

Thanks for your reply.

Try not to address economic matters. You've no expertise there whatsoever and it shows. Simply-if we go down, everybody will go down. EVERYBODY. The global market is that interconnected and we intended as such. The principle which underlines that simple fact is comparative advantage.

If you understand that tiny but important economic concept-comparative advantage, then you understand everything you need about American foreign policy. Note that I didn't say global economic but "foreign" policy. You clearly don't, however, as evidenced by your sophomoric comment. Nuff said unless you care to itch that scab.

As for the rest of your "comments", Rescue Ranger, I'd be content were your country today to decide that it intended to divorce it's affairs from America and NATO completely. That would be an entirely reasonable outcome for myself. Both sides need to learn to live without each other. I believe that we'll do fine and that there can be an Afghanistan solution which doesn't include Pakistan. That may even be necessary.

Should we have to part, it'll likely be as enemies. I make no bones about that and understand that your proxy armies will be a continuing issue. Those proxies already pose a severe threat, though, so we lose nothing and if that meant we'd be at war with your regular forces, so be it.

Finally, your desire for a W.W. III reveals your fundamental impotency. Clearly that entails many powerful nations beside Pakistan making war against America. No doubt you'll need all of them to achieve your ambition.

You must imagine yourselves quite popular?

I can see it now-Proud Pakistan standing lonely against the mighty great Satan. An epic struggle as our minion-slaves, the afghanis and Indians surge forward in the countless millions as we stand behind them with whips beating them.

Driven by fear and lust together, they viciously charge only to be repelled by your holy warriors imbued with the divine blessing denied to our craven dupes. Still, the tide sweeps onward...

The great nations of earth, recognizing the moment has come from this singular and heroic act of defiance, rush to your aid-ashamed for leaving you alone and bare to our drooling rabid fangs and clutching, grasping claws.
Care to toss in some sweet muslim belles for our semi-ignorant gorilla rapist-soldiers...? Helps the imagry as you guys can be kinda funny with your sex obsessions and sorta rounds out the story altogether.

Can you start by getting the Chinese to quit sending Zardari home empty-handed with peanuts. Then I'll be more able to see this grand alliance.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting though.

Thanks.

Hey Jimbo!

If it ain't for Afghanistan; your Generals and defense companies would be making toasters now won't they? Spare us your angelic and self-imposed mighty mouse commentary! The sandal-wearing gurillas are sure giving your bullet-proof vest covered Marines a very tough time in Afghanistan. Body bag after body bag going home. IED after IED blowing up the nicely made armoured hummers and its passengers. So you ain't Captain America the invincible and the guerrillas know that. You feel much better about the children-killer US Marines in Iraq then you do about the semi-ignorant gorillas kicking your butt in Afghanistan, dontcha?

Thanks again for your very valuable insight though!............NEXT!!!

 

[jetLi]

Thanks for your reply.

Try not to address economic matters. You've no expertise there whatsoever and it shows. Simply-if we go down, everybody will go down. EVERYBODY. The global market is that interconnected and we intended as such. The principle which underlines that simple fact is comparative advantage.

If you understand that tiny but important economic concept-comparative advantage, then you understand everything you need about American foreign policy. Note that I didn't say global economic but "foreign" policy. You clearly don't, however, as evidenced by your sophomoric comment. Nuff said unless you care to itch that scab.

As for the rest of your "comments", Rescue Ranger, I'd be content were your country today to decide that it intended to divorce it's affairs from America and NATO completely. That would be an entirely reasonable outcome for myself. Both sides need to learn to live without each other. I believe that we'll do fine and that there can be an Afghanistan solution which doesn't include Pakistan. That may even be necessary.

Should we have to part, it'll likely be as enemies. I make no bones about that and understand that your proxy armies will be a continuing issue. Those proxies already pose a severe threat, though, so we lose nothing and if that meant we'd be at war with your regular forces, so be it.

Finally, your desire for a W.W. III reveals your fundamental impotency. Clearly that entails many powerful nations beside Pakistan making war against America. No doubt you'll need all of them to achieve your ambition.

You must imagine yourselves quite popular?

I can see it now-Proud Pakistan standing lonely against the mighty great Satan. An epic struggle as our minion-slaves, the afghanis and Indians surge forward in the countless millions as we stand behind them with whips beating them.

Driven by fear and lust together, they viciously charge only to be repelled by your holy warriors imbued with the divine blessing denied to our craven dupes. Still, the tide sweeps onward...

The great nations of earth, recognizing the moment has come from this singular and heroic act of defiance, rush to your aid-ashamed for leaving you alone and bare to our drooling rabid fangs and clutching, grasping claws.
Care to toss in some sweet muslim belles for our semi-ignorant gorilla rapist-soldiers...? Helps the imagry as you guys can be kinda funny with your sex obsessions and sorta rounds out the story altogether.

Can you start by getting the Chinese to quit sending Zardari home empty-handed with peanuts. Then I'll be more able to see this grand alliance.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting though.

Thanks.

Ganster USA, When you have no way to stop economy recession,
u resort to print dollar.

There is no difference with the robbery

And now , nearily everyone America people have own 30 thousands dollar .
USA have already gone bankrupt in fact

 

[batmannow]

batmannow


Dear Sir.


let me, clear your educated & full of medics mind!

truly said

dear sir, in pakistan army any one can go for ssg training , commisioned or non- commisioned officers, soliders. with regular SSG units OR can be back in thier parent formations,after completing the SSG course!


I know sir. Its something which is similar all over the world as also in IA. The query was specific in nature, either you were in NLI at the said time interval or in SSG, you can not claim being in both as offrs are sent on deputation and the day they leave for SSG on deputation, they are deemed as being in that and NOT in any parent unit for the time duration. Although it may differ in PA I grant but that is the usual trend in ALL armies all over and so had asked specifically.

SSG officers must have at least two years of prior military experience and volunteer from other formations for three-year assignments with the SSG; NCO and enlisted men volunteer from other formations to serve permanently in the SSG. All trainees must participate in an eight-month SSG course at Cherta. The SSG course course emphasizes tough physical conditioning. Included is a 36-mile march in 12 hours, a grueling requirement that was first institutionalized by 19 Baluch. They are also required to run 5 miles in 40 minutes with full gear. Following the SSG course, trainees must volunteer for Airborne School. The course last four weeks, with wings awarded after seven (five day, two night) jumps. none SSG airborne students only have to complete a the five day jump.

Many in the SSG school are selected for additional specialist training. A HALO course is given at Peshawar with a 'skydiver' tab awarded after 5 freefall jumps. A "Mountain Warfare" qualification badge is given after completing a course at the Mountain Warfare School in Abbotabad; and a "Combat Diver" badge is awarded awarded for the course held by the Naval Special Services Group SSGN at Karachi. three classes of combat swimmers were recognized: 1st class to those completing an 18-mile swim; 2nd class to those finishing a 12-mile swim; and 3rd class for a 6-mile swim. SSG regularly sends students to the US for special warfare and airborne training. later on due to Siachen crisis, a Snow and High Altitude Warfare School was also established.


so my dear, doctor commando, sir
so , i can be in NLI & i can be a SSG same time


You could have just posted this link for this sir.

Special Service Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And avoided wasting all that time in typing an easily googled article.

As for you being both NLI and SSG at the same time, I dont think you can be but as I pointed in my earlier post, things may vary in PA. Have met a few PA personnel at Ft. Benning, Georgia for US Army Ranger Course who have gone on to be with SSG, so know they have similar training and organistaion.

i guss , its enough for you & for your due education on PAKISTAN DEFENCE FOURM , to stop claiming as a "Mountain Warfare" expert ,& with out any knowlege of PAKARMY!

Ah sir never did claim it did I? Where? Please show one link where I have claimed to be one. I just pointed out the inconsistency in your having claimed to have operated in Mountains in Kargil and yet questioning te rationale for high ratio of troops employed-that is all. And since you said ex-PA I just asked you to open the FM which I KNOW is used by PA and go through it so that you can refresh your basics about dominating heights, routes of approach, axes of approach etc etc and correlate with the lack of adequate defilades in the terrain of Kargil-Dras-Gurez and the need to employ large number of troops.

Also you had claimed about tech superiority of US not being helpful. You know (from your experiences) that the ballistics in high altitude are not according to your text books/manuals and the accuracy of so called high precision munitions is also suspect at times due to parameters of aerodynamics.

At the same time parabollic trajectory or air dropped weapons are not as effective as the same being used in flat trajectory due to defences being usually being prepared under overhangings/outcroppings to give overhead protection. So the only way to get a kill probability of greater than 70% is to hit flat (the reason why FH-77s were dismantelled and manually carried by IA arty units to be used in flat fire role)

In addition the opreational parameters being subjected to poilitcal directives in India is further enhanced by the example of non-usage of napalm/airfuel munitions which had been prohibited by political directive in their wisdom(which I dont know).Am sure you can appreciate the effectiveness of this line of munition in fire missions in high altitude regions. If not can always elaborate on what I meant.

Well , as USA is trying to get out from AFGHNISTAN , INDIA is trying to form a alliance with IRAN ,to domminate THE REGION with the hidden US support US wants India's help in fighting Baitullah Mehsud: Holbrooke was a part of this unlogical plan , which can be seen very good on the papers but in the reality , its just a junk !

The key lies in "boots on ground" theory. Initially the US used extensive air power to drive Taliban from majority of the area but in classical calusewitz style which says "never engage an enemy for too long otherwise he learns from it and betters you" or thereabouts, the Taliban was able to adopt and take advantage of less number of troops on ground, who did not hold the ground. The US in full credit understood and today is following what I would say IA and PA have done for decades, hold key features to deny approach and dominate the surrounding regions. The process is definitely in earlier stages and ongoing and as such can not be termed as successful/failure.

The only interest for India is in the remotest of possibility of Pakistan failing as a state.Then wisdom dictates taking the war to the enemy and fighting it in their territory and not ours. PA today, as I have oft said, is our greatest ally and Pakistan our last defense against this threat and I personally am hoping they live up to what I think of them and give a sound drubbing to this idiocy in form of taliban which is really screwing up a perfectly good and sound religion for its own use.


i guss, its the time when INDIA start playing its due role , by uniting peoples & govts against every threat to all of the region.

Sir I share your sentiment on this. Alas we both as a nation suffer from idiotic politicians. Difference is your army gets tired and kicks some behinds once in a while, we dont. We should learn something from PA here.

in a realistic, approch HOW CAN INDIAN FORCES survive the , dangerous & best of the bests most expert Mountain Warfare fighting force of the world!, THE TALIBANS, AT the same time pakistan is facing the same threat because of its support to TALIBANS enemies , it would be a very wellcome for pakistan to support TALIBANS against INDIAN forces in afghanistan & to trun the anger of the TALIBANS , towards INDIAN forces.

Any indian intervention at this stage wil lbe a glee for PA and ISI. I agree. That is why IA will not intervene now.Its a last resort, whatever any gentleman sitting in US may say or hope.

you can write as much as you like my dear doctor commando sir, because i belive that a doctor could be a commando!:

I am not that and I am not claiming that



anyways am not tiring of this ...... the closing lines are yours .....

In that case I await your response (just hoping the mods dont tire and kick me

Dear doctor commando, hell fire Sir,

i was a commisioned officer in NLI, but i had a lot of course mates from ssg! the time kargill happened i was the frist commisioned officer , to get the orders from my CO for RECC , with a team of 8 mens ! & in my team there were 3 SSG trainned NLI soldiers.

Q Ah sir never did claim it did I? Where? Please show one link where I have claimed to be one. I just pointed out the inconsistency in your having claimed to have operated in Mountains in Kargil and yet questioning te rationale for high ratio of troops employed-that is all.

A I dont think you can be but as I pointed in my earlier post, things may vary in PA. Have met a few PA personnel at Ft. Benning, Georgia for US Army Ranger Course who have gone on to be with SSG, so know they have similar training and organistaion.

well , how can you meet PA personnel at Ft. Benning, Georgia for US Army Ranger Course who have gone on to be with SSG, so know they have similar training and organistaion .. if you are not a IA combatant, thn how can you "join US Army Ranger Course"

Sir I share your sentiment on this. Alas we both as a nation suffer from idiotic politicians. Difference is your army gets tired and kicks some behinds once in a while, we dont. We should learn something from PA here.

you should, actully this is all POLITICAL nounsense which is happening from the last 60 years or so, i mean RAW & ISI's COLD WAR?
MANY of innocent lives been sacrifiyed for nothing?

What i want to see is ,the co-opreation by india to get rid of this TALIBANIZM , but for that reason , it is important that , INDIA shouldnot sent its forces to afghanistan, its a plan to distrub peace in the region , in which india shouldnt fall.
i guss, its important that india ,pakistan , iran , turkey should form a united policy to combat terrorism , situation in afghanistan , economy +free trade in the region , i find INDIA a capable force ,to begain a SUPER ASIAN block , lack of experience in politics of PAKISTAN, unrealistic approch on international affairs of IRAN , & TURKEYS desperations of being not a nato member are the basic weeknesses of the region , but as i said ! INDIA taking lead as a leader of the block , can do this immposible mission?

AFGHNISTAN has been made a mess by USA scince day number 1 , the occupytion of afghanistan by thn USSR, & now its even worse , the best solution is the talks between PAKISTAN , TALIBANS, & US, a comprehensive negociated settlement shouldbe carried out with all the key players involved , there should be bars on very extermists kind of rules by any one in GOVERNING afghanistan IN THE COMMING FUTURE?
The only interest for India is in the remotest of possibility of Pakistan failing as a state.Then wisdom dictates taking the war to the enemy and fighting it in their territory and not ours.

the logic you are refering is basicly wrong ,dear commando doctor, sir!
the wisdom , tells us with history that, in vietnam it was a wrong !
in afghaistan it was wrong?
in north korea it was wrong ?
in somalia it was wrong?
in post british india it was wrong?

WELL pakistan falling in the hands of TALIBANS, or becomming a failed or ungovernable state, is just a excuse for the politicians & policy makers , world over to get money for thier plans, in the real world it will never going to happen , but if the world is really intersted in cutting the extermists influences in pakistani society , they should help to resolve the issue of KASHMMIR , MOTHER OF ALL PROBLEMS TO PAKISTAN?

The key lies in "boots on ground" theory
i was the only person , who is wrriting thread by thread on this issue!
plz go cheak my thread in land forces section!
right now , pakistan needs to increase its "boots on ground" in FATA , being EX-PAKARMY i, am certenly in favour of "ESTABLISHING A elite reaction force of pakarmy , which should be stationed to FATA permentaly,& forever!
yes , you are 1000% right, on that thing but we need "boots on ground" on both sides?
at least , a force of 200000, strong mens with extensive special mountain combat training & with fast moving vechicls, fast moving airpower with guided weapons, predators every thing from special night vision gears , bulletproff vests & a perminent budget to back the force.
in addition , we need extra budget to build factories, roads links infrastucture, hospitals ,universities, more schools with free education, i am sure that we will never going to see b@strd like Baitullah Mehsud, evr again!

for me i think , PAKARMY 100% capable of conducting a COMMANDO raid on this b@strd like Baitullah Mehsud, but with weak financial support & high casualty fear, & with this weak govt in power.
reservists like me only can cry!

the ballistics in high altitude are not according to your text books/manuals and the accuracy of so called high precision munitions is also suspect at times due to parameters of aerodynamics.

At the same time parabollic trajectory or air dropped weapons are not as effective as the same being used in flat trajectory due to defences being usually being prepared under overhangings/outcroppings to give overhead protection. So the only way to get a kill probability of greater than 70% is to hit flat (the reason why FH-77s were dismantelled and manually carried by IA arty units to be used in flat fire role)

from my experinces in kargill war , i find that IAF MIRRAGE 2000, did the late swing for IA, high attitude ?
how can you hit a position which you never know, i mean the our exact locations?
your ATTLRY was firing the rain of shells but it was MIRRAGE 2000, which with its night strike capability did the job, by RECC & GUIDED STRIKES.
also its MIRRAGE 2000, which provided the exact locations to your ARTT battries to fire exactly on us with out MIRRAGE 2000, IA was a junk, like a shooting sitting ducks, our positions were too good at that time .
plz clear youmind that you are sitting down below 1800 feet ! can just hit me 1800 above exactly! it cant happen ,i wont mind if you are hitting flat may be 3 to 5 kms far from me, i will be happily drinking the hot tea, as i did that time in kargill !


thanks for finding comman grounds, dear commando doctor sir!
under oath of pakistan army i certnly , cant open my mouth more thn this, specialy on trainng methods, trainng maneuvers, i am not a part of PAKARMY anymore but still i am concerned with them in my private status.
i hope ultimatly you will understand the k-nicks & k-nocks!

 

[S-2]

NATO and America together have lost about 1,000 men and women over seven years, buckwheat. Do the math if you're capable.

Your guerrillas primarily target the afghani people to generate a sense of insecurity. These are their objectives as they leave your former lands.

That's, of course, heinous to do so but most Pakistanis don't mind if it'll further their ambitions for hegemony over afghani affairs.

epool, the race is on. Can we de-stabilize YOU before you de-stabilize us sufficient that forty-one nations give up? And the prize?

Have you considered that we will NEVER allow Afghanistan to return to it's former state and that it may need to be destroyed if it can't be saved. It's a horrible thought but there's no way that the world can afford Pakistani control of Afghanistan again.

Fortunately, the odds suggest that we'll last longer in A-stan than you will. To the victor go the spoils. Course, if you win, you'll really, really lose.

Trust me. This really is zero sum for you if Pakistan doesn't get on board.

 

[XYON]

NATO and America together have lost about 1,000 men and women over seven years, buckwheat. Do the math if you're capable.

Your guerrillas primarily target the afghani people to generate a sense of insecurity. These are their objectives as they leave your former lands.

That's, of course, heinous to do so but most Pakistanis don't mind if it'll further their ambitions for hegemony over afghani affairs.

epool, the race is on. Can we de-stabilize YOU before you de-stabilize us sufficient that forty-one nations give up? And the prize?

Have you considered that we will NEVER allow Afghanistan to return to it's former state and that it may need to be destroyed if it can't be saved. It's a horrible thought but there's no way that the world can afford Pakistani control of Afghanistan again.

Fortunately, the odds suggest that we'll last longer in A-stan than you will. To the victor go the spoils. Course, if you win, you'll really, really lose.

Trust me. This really is zero sum for you if Pakistan doesn't get on board.

That is why its called 'GUERRILLA' warfare genius! Your history seems to be rusty as Afghanistan is called GRAVEYARD OF EMPIRES and you are no different then the mighty Soviets in the 80's or the British empire before then! Again; SPARE US YOUR MIGHTY MOUSE CAPTAIN AMERICA BS! You are digging your own grave in Afghanistan the way things are being handled there by your US military!

And we do not have the need of desire to de-stabilize your USA. You are already doing a good job of that yourself!

You cannot do JACK in Afghanistan without going through Pakistan Jimbo! Again brush up on your history of the area; try to learn from it if you can; get out of your cocoon of self-imposed delusion of grandeur; and remember our civilized history lasts over a thousand years at which time your ancestors were peeing on rocks and swinging their wooden cave-man clubs!

 

[Chaudharry]

Baitullah Mehsud is RAW agent..........................why is he just enemy of PAKISTAN not other..........

 

[Hellfire]

batmannow

Dear Sir


i was a commisioned officer in NLI, but i had a lot of course mates from ssg! the time kargill happened i was the frist commisioned officer , to get the orders from my CO for RECC , with a team of 8 mens ! & in my team there were 3 SSG trainned NLI soldiers.

Thanks for the clarification. Pt understood.


well , how can you meet PA personnel at Ft. Benning, Georgia for US Army Ranger Course who have gone on to be with SSG, so know they have similar training and organistaion .. if you are not a IA combatant, thn how can you "join US Army Ranger Course"[/B]

dear sir. have told you am not IA! Although have lineage of same. And the reason I met them was - some cultural similarity always causes Indians and Pakistanis to meet up in a foreign country and I have been travelling quitea lot. And have quite a good idea about US facilities thanks to the army lineage. I never did any Ranger Course and nor any othjer such course. Am not a specialist, please, my interest and information is although a little bt more than justan enthusiasts I agree but that is for reasons of my having an "exposure" ....


the logic you are refering is basicly wrong ,dear commando doctor, sir!
the wisdom , tells us with history that, in vietnam it was a wrong !
in afghaistan it was wrong?
in north korea it was wrong ?
in somalia it was wrong?
in post british india it was wrong?

WELL pakistan falling in the hands of TALIBANS, or becomming a failed or ungovernable state, is just a excuse for the politicians & policy makers ,


I did say that its remotest one and not what India wouyld like to see howsoever inviting it may sound.

world over to get money for thier plans, in the real world it will never going to happen , but if the world is really intersted in cutting the extermists influences in pakistani society , they should help to resolve the issue of KASHMMIR , MOTHER OF ALL PROBLEMS TO PAKISTAN?

It was in Pakistan's hands to solve it by just implementing UN resolution back in 1948 which it did not then. India failed to force one solution in 1971 after ceasefire was signed and there were 90000 plus POWs. Its too impossible now except to recognise LoC as the IB and leave it at that.But not likely and ..... so we fight on like jerks.


for me i think , PAKARMY 100% capable of conducting a COMMANDO raid on this b@strd like Baitullah Mehsud, but with weak financial support & high casualty fear, & with this weak govt in power.
reservists like me only can cry!

I agree here .... they can whip some ***** if they get into the mode and that is what I am hoping to see.


from my experinces in kargill war , i find that IAF MIRRAGE 2000, did the late swing for IA, high attitude ?

actually the Paveway kits were limited and guided munitions were very sparsely employed.

how can you hit a position which you never know, i mean the our exact locations?

If you remember 2 RAJ RIF's ops in Tololing, they did overcome this problem. The attack there was 2 coys of the said bn but actual deployment was 1 Coy with Bn Mortar Platoon for immediate support only. Arty batt in location was in direct fire mode at sources of fire by direct observation. The volume of fire from defenses was very heavy and tactical mistake of letting your MGs being pinpointed was made by the opposing cdr as per what was obtained from analysis.


your ATTLRY was firing the rain of shells but it was MIRRAGE 2000, which with its night strike capability did the job, by RECC & GUIDED STRIKES.
also its MIRRAGE 2000, which provided the exact locations to your ARTT battries to fire exactly on us with out MIRRAGE 2000, IA was a junk, like a shooting sitting ducks, our positions were too good at that time .

my point exactly upon the defenders havingt the clearest edge in deployment in mountain ... now sir you have answered like a serviceman and not made gaffes and I appreciate that.

plz clear youmind that you are sitting down below 1800 feet ! can just hit me 1800 above exactly! it cant happen ,i wont mind if you are hitting flat may be 3 to 5 kms far from me, i will be happily drinking the hot tea, as i did that time in kargill !

actually in high alt the medium regts of IA arty found that the 155mm shell from FH-77s was travelling in excess of 45 kms rather than 35-38 it does in plains. This is purely to do with the decresed moisture content, density of air in the areas as such reducing the drag created in projectile motion. so that was my contention in area specific to the said region where average altitudes were above 8000 feet.


thanks