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US shoots itself in foot in Pakistan jet deal .

I guess you could call it undemocratic since i don't think genuine democracy exists in Pakistan (It doesn't exist anywhere really).
Major fact to ponder about Pakistani democracy is the question whether they are genuinely democratic. Lets go into history. If these PPPP and PMLN hate dictators so much then why was father of PPPP Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto foreign minister during the time of Ayub Khan? Not only that he presided over the division of bengal saying he would break the legs of Bengalis who voted. Zardari even banned jokes about him on mobile text messages. Does a democratic leader do such a thing? Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was such an autocrat that he declared Ahmedi kaffirs and drinking not allowed even for minorities.

Then lets move to the Sharif's. Nawaz Sharif was chief minister of Punjab under Zia Ul Haq... now he talks as if he is immaculate and Musharraf took away his democratic power.

So in reality both the 2 major political parties rose only and only due to dictators. Now when it suits them they talk about democracy. If this is democracy then I say clearly Musharraf, a dictators era was far superior to the era of Zardari and Nawaz who are actually autocrats-economically we were on a good path. Nawaz also has the reputation of using the assembly to almost declare himself king of Pakistan something he was about to do before Musharraf took over other than not letting Musharraf's plane land.

I do not support Musharraf but he was far better than what we have now.
 
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Major fact to ponder about Pakistani democracy is the question whether they are genuinely democratic.
I don't think so. Leaving aside the fact there is no effective civilian oversight on military matters, Pakistan's elected officials represent their party leadership more than their constituency: as I understand it, if, in response to the changing will of their constituency, they dispute with their party leadership on a matter they can be removed from the party membership, whereupon they must either join another party or resign their office to form a new party of their own. So I consider such a system is an election-weighted competitive oligarchy and not a Western-style representative democracy.
 
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My friend/sir,
Su35 > no one i gonna chew - if you have guts just start the talk then say something. its about defense minister/higher authorities.
Rafael > You didn't even say a word that you want this jet or whatever, without putting you leg you can not say (out of question) yes you can say after deal is done with india which is still in negotiation process - not confirmed. However, forget about this Jet.
J-10 > Forget about about PAF not interested, its not about interest actually. its about we need to fill gape, Jf17 is very slow and not gonna fill the gape for sure. so this is the only jet who can help us in our bad.
Typhoon > My dear i do not understand why you guys jst keep saying money money issue. men money is not a issue. just kick out the Government and money will come out itself.
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and now come on to your Mighty F16. For God sake please. you guys are just keep saying F16 F16.
please think when you are in war and Uncle sam gives you sanction, than what you will do with this Junk? except taking pictures.
SO PLEASE COME OUT FROM YOUR DREAM THAT THIS JET IS GOING TO DEFEND US.

I can understand US is helping is to procure this jet. but they are giving us used maal. if they are really helpful so why not giving us Jet with AESA, F16V. why????

Don't you think we have already broached the subject with the Russians?? It is not about guts, it is about sheer economics and jobs for the Russians!!! Pakistan is a smaller market as compared to India.

Be my guest ask the French -- they wont even sell you subs, or avionics suits!!! Where did you come up with this?

J-10 -- let us see.

We were doing well with "Used maal" i.e the Mirage solution for three decades!!! When one does not have the money or the clout, used maal is what one has to do with!!
 
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What options are there for PAF:

SU 35? India will chew out Russkies if that happens (the chewing will be worth around 6 to 8 billion US$)
Rafael? Is out of question now.
J-10? PAF seems not interested in it. Might be a fallback option, if nothing else materializes.
Typhoon? Unit cost US$100 Million+

I do not see many choices for PAF but to go for used F-16 and upgrade them.

Remember, we need to replace 190 or so a/c and if we, as some of the members here are suggesting, dump F-16's then add another 70+ a/c to the list!

I see US helping out Pakistan to procure second hand birds from third parties and helping upgrade them in Turkey.

That is the ,most likely scenario, whether we like it or not!
How much would old EFT cost? Those are good for air deference but not ideal for multi role... Some countries are willing to sell these on the market.

The issue with F-16's are that PAF can only buy those which have a similar PW engine hence these are limited in numbers. PAF only operates Blk 15 and Blk 52 hence the Block 40 are not available till congress approves them.

Options in this regard are to procure some from Jordan...Pakistan is looking to procure Block 52's from Poland.
The up gradation kits would also require approvals hence they might not be given...How do you think PAF would procure them?

IMO
If Trump is elected and he follows up on what he intends to do then USA would be heading towards isolation similar to what we saw before the Great Wars. USA would not indulge in war unless attacked. This could benefit some but not all specially those that have serious trust deficit.

Considering todays speech of Obama it is very clear that USA does not want China to take control of Asia and this is the reason USA would try to empower strategic alliances with what ever their needs are even if they are at the expense of formal allies.

Two worst hit countries that can come out of this policy are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

It is high time Pakistan has to find a solution and not put all her eggs in one basket. Pakistan should try to find other countries in the world who are willing to help in this regards.
 
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Frustration on South China Sea has clearly shown by Uncle Sam...........in this Drone Attack...:lol: :china::pakistan:
 
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Don't you think we have already broached the subject with the Russians?? It is not about guts, it is about sheer economics and jobs for the Russians!!! Pakistan is a smaller market as compared to India.

Be my guest ask the French -- they wont even sell you subs, or avionics suits!!! Where did you come up with this?

J-10 -- let us see.

We were doing well with "Used maal" i.e the Mirage solution for three decades!!! When one does not have the money or the clout, used maal is what one has to do with!!

Hi,

I am not saying to go and get french hardware, at least when you had chance what you have done?!
and now just watch the show how india is playing with one after other options.

and with regards to your Used Maal - can you tell me until when you are going to use it? at the time of sanction?
Trump will be in Power soon - Then?

Dear think one step ahead what your ally's or enemies on.
If you will not take other options - i can bet we will suffer.

Very soon F16 will be on Card - US will offer again or maybe they will clear this sale of 8 fighter's. (Only 8 is not gonna change the power). forget about more 10 thats different story almost 20 more thread to come for that.

If really anyone's has link to PAF top authorities tell them to come on this foram and read something so they might have some knowledge and they will learn from those who actually love there soul and country.

we are here to share our frustrations. Wish to pass my msg to them. But. waiting to see when this F16 deals i going to end. Insha Allah.

How much would old EFT cost? Those are good for air deference but not ideal for multi role... Some countries are willing to sell these on the market.

The issue with F-16's are that PAF can only buy those which have a similar PW engine hence these are limited in numbers. PAF only operates Blk 15 and Blk 52 hence the Block 40 are not available till congress approves them.

Options in this regard are to procure some from Jordan...Pakistan is looking to procure Block 52's from Poland.
The up gradation kits would also require approvals hence they might not be given...How do you think PAF would procure them?

IMO
If Trump is elected and he follows up on what he intends to do then USA would be heading towards isolation similar to what we saw before the Great Wars. USA would not indulge in war unless attacked. This could benefit some but not all specially those that have serious trust deficit.

Considering todays speech of Obama it is very clear that USA does not want China to take control of Asia and this is the reason USA would try to empower strategic alliances with what ever their needs are even if they are at the expense of formal allies.

Two worst hit countries that can come out of this policy are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

It is high time Pakistan has to find a solution and not put all her eggs in one basket. Pakistan should try to find other countries in the world who are willing to help in this regards.

Very few people on this foram has this point to move on other options.
and as you said about two worst hit countries.

My friend, Count only Pakistan here. they are not going to do anything With Saudi Arabia.
Because they knows how to deal with Uncle sam.
 
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We were doing well with "Used maal" i.e the Mirage solution for three decades!!! When one does not have the money or the clout, used maal is what one has to do with!!
One can not compare the Mirage iii and v's with F-16's because the French had given PAF all the rights unlike US.
Money is not the issue if there is a package deal for the entire military needs.

EFT / Puma / Type 212A (Italian) / Italian Frigates / Air defence systems would cost Pakistan approximately 20 billion USD payable in 10 years...

France
Rafale M / Puma / Frigates and Air defence systems would cost approximately 20 billion USD .

Russia
SU-35 / Mi 35 / Mi 28 / Mi 17 / Frigates / Corvettes / Tor M1 / S-300 / S400 / Tanks would cost around 15-18 billion USD. And also opens up the entire Chines fleet.
 
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Pakistan will still go for these F16s mark my words after all F16s are our opium drugs.

Pakistan will still go for these F16s mark my words after all F16s are our opium drugs.

We have some very corrupt people who are holding top positions in Pakistan, their allegiance is with Pakistan.
 
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I am yet to understand why there is so hatred in Pakistan minds for USA. On top of it if the army is not following the government that is shown as a matter of esteemed.
 
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Hey slimeball!

For someone who claims to be a know-all, you sure are scared enough to ask the mods to delete by posts on the topic!!!

But never mind, that's exactly the kind of snivelling behavior I expect from you. Cheers!!!
Not really, I reported someone else, not you. I guess mods decided to delete your comments as well.

By the way, enjoy your negative rating for that insult. Cheers, indeed.
 
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Be my guest ask the French -- they wont even sell you subs, or avionics suits!!! Where did you come up with this?

J-10 -- let us see.

We were doing well with "Used maal" i.e the Mirage solution for three decades!!! When one does not have the money or the clout, used maal is what one has to do with!!

Hi,

French cannot be blamed----we deceived them hard after 9/11---and the way we acted before & after their 17 engineers got killed in karachi was no help either.
 
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I am yet to understand why there is so hatred in Pakistan minds for USA.

We have hatred for US government and Pentagon and all those warmonger Americans who think they have right to throw bomb and missile any where they like...........whole world shares the same feeling, we are not alone having that.
 
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