US Government vs Congress: Sale of F16s to Pakistan

[Falcon26]

I've not seen anyone American using the term "Uncharacteristically" and I've been to 41 states and have lived in over 29!! This is such an Anglo-Indian English word. Wrong flags may be? You can use at-least ONE Indian flag, we don't mind



I agree with majority of your post. But if the PAF buys 3-4 more years worth of spares, and has 5 (estimated at anytime), theoretically, you can keep these machines flying like normal for the next 8-10 years. You may see 5-10% attrition but that would be expected. So that gives plenty of time to change the doctrine and either TOT another jet to build it under license, or get J-10C's or J-16 or J-31's and get people and tactics done on them in the next 3-4 years. F-16 then goes into a secondary (support) role and less hours will be put on those, meaning the 8-10 years life, may get extended out to 12 years. Not a bad deal. But I agree, Pakistan needed to acquire J-10 air-frame with TOT and call that JFT block III or IV. If they had started back in 2010, by now, you'd probably have 60-ish inducted already, with support, weapons and tactics, all in house available anytime.

The PAF always misses the big game, if you ask them, they say the Army takes up all the budget. Not sure who to really blame. But the growing economy would help post 2018 for sure.

Let me get this straight, are you accusing me of being an Indian?

 

[MastanKhan]

You know, I'd agree with the bold part above. But here's the thing, if you read through the lines being published, it almost seems that the US has clearly drawn a line towards Pakistan. Pakistan is no longer coming up as an "ally with rocky relationship"......a chorus that used to be played throughout the US media till a couple of years ago.

Times are changing and now the US looks at Pakistan as "them", nothing like an ally or anything. In fact, if you realize, majority of the senators now say "China and Pakistan", putting the two nations into a very opposite side, than an "ally with a rocky relationship".

There is a law being passed soon which would allow India and Indians to have an equal status and partnership status to the US. If I was to guess, the day isn't far, when the US and India won't really require a visa for businessmen (starting from there). And it would go way beyond.

So with every passing day, that "leverage" you mentioned, is quickly going away rather much faster than it needed to. Also, check out the serious geo-political change around Pakistan. The US can now talk to Iran, the US is IN Afghanistan and I think the US will stay as it makes perfect sense. Plus, whatever the US now needs done in Afghanistan, it can get that done without firing a bullet, by using India. So what's left for Pakistan? The "leverage" is gone IMO. Anyone not reading all the above and understanding it, is REALLY making a huge misscalculation on that leverage part. Mushy effed up that leverage concepts and the US administration hated it as they knew the game and didn't want to play it anymore, thus the growing role of India in Afghanistan and across Asia!!

They teach you one thing in strategy, NEVER over-use one strategy. Everyone starts to understand it and it becomes obsolete before you know it. That's what happened here with regards to that "leverage" Pakistan played for so long.

Pakistan's best opportunity is to grow her economy to a level it can go to (top 12-14th place), that is the ONLY sustainable model for Pakistan to remain on good terms with everyone (the West, US in particular and then from an Indian standpoint). A modern, terrorism free, investor loving society attracts every investor, resulting in a change of policies towards the country from the US, India or whoever has the money to go invest in Pakistan and get $$$$ in higher profits due to booming economy.

Viper,

For how long I have stating that over here---the love was long gone---the air marshall's and Gen Raheel's visit last year was a whitewash----. The train had already left the station---don't know pakistan was looking for.

 

[Viper0011.]

Viper,

For how long I have stating that over here---the love was long gone---the air marshall's and Gen Raheel's visit last year was a whitewash----. The train had already left the station---don't know pakistan was looking for.

To be frank, RS's visit actually did more damage than good in the circumstances. These guys in Fatigues need to realize, the American leaders like SUITS and Salesmen talking business. The train indeed has left the station and it left much faster when RS decided to show up. He's done a LOT of great work here. Not sure what he did in this case....

 

[Hyperion]

Oh really? There is a massive strategic realignment going on in the subcontinent, due to shifting of global economic center of gravity............ and we, Pakistan, have made our choice......... and so has India.......... what was your wish, for Pakistan to remain US's 'minor partner' for the next 5 decades as well? What did we get out of the last romantic sojourn with them? Maltay and suppa duppa F-16's and loads upon loads of backstab wounds..... the relationship was rotten from the very beginning........ and do remember one thing, the US doesn't make partners with smaller nations, they either make them their lackeys or colonize them, as we are poles apart from social perspective, therefore integration was never going to work anyways......... all in all, not their bad, it's the way world works and India suits their strategic objectives well. By the way, even if 200 million citizens of Pakistan were to present their collective arses to Uncle Sam, would they invest / loan etc etc in Pakistan in the amount of USD120 billion over the next 5 years? Yeah, right, only in our dreams............... F16's may become the reason for an amicable split between our two nations, which is a GOOD thing.

@Viper0011, yes I know about the law and many other laws that have culminated into this one, and we know the fine print as well............. and so do many concerned people here............. contrary to the belief of 'certain' fresh off the boat Pako-Yankees, Pakistan isn't asleep..............

Hi,

Only if you knew how the game was played----.

You call this playing the game---by being dragged thru mud and slime all the time.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Viper,

For how long I have stating that over here---the love was long gone---the air marshall's and Gen Raheel's visit last year was a whitewash----. The train had already left the station---don't know pakistan was looking for.

Muhterem Mastan Bey:
How can you board on two trains simultaneously? Instead of boarding on a train which is packed with goons fighting for little better seats and constantly being scolded by the owner, what's about boarding on a train, may have little inferior seats, but served by the waiters and most welcomed by the owner?

With selam and dua..

 

[Viper0011.]

Mind following your own advice? I haven't seen any Black American so fanatically obsessed with Nawaz Sharif and Imran Khan.

What's my advise? You've not seen a Black American so obsessed with Modi's wrong and anti-human policies too. But our POTUS, also a black American loves Modi. So it turns out, people are people and have likes and interests. Black, Brown, White don't matter......this is the beauty of America. We don't kill our minorities here for eating beef or liking stuff they, as a human have a right to. Love the American system, so humane. India should learn from us and stop persecuting their minorities.

Oh really? There is a massive strategic realignment going on in the subcontinent, due to shifting of global economic center of gravity............ and we, Pakistan, have made our choice......... and so has India.......... what was your wish, for Pakistan to remain US's 'minor partner' for the next 5 decades as well? What did we get out of the last romantic sojourn with them? Maltay and suppa duppa F-16's and loads upon loads of backstab wounds..... the relationship was rotten from the very beginning........ and do remember one thing, the US doesn't make partners with smaller nations, they either make them their lackeys or colonize them, as we are poles apart from social perspective, therefore integration was never going to work anyways......... all in all, not their bad, it's the way world works and India suits their strategic objectives well. By the way, even if 200 million citizens of Pakistan were to present their collective arses to Uncle Sam, would they invest / loan etc etc in Pakistan in the amount of USD120 billion over the next 5 years? Yeah, right, only in our dreams............... F16's may become the reason for an amicable split between our two nations, which is a GOOD thing.

@Viper0011, yes I know about the law and many other laws that have culminated into this one, and we know the fine print as well............. and so do many concerned people here............. contrary to the belief of 'certain' fresh off the boat Pako-Yankees, Pakistan isn't asleep..............

I know that. But at the same time, specially from the PAF's side, I am not seeing a strategy and that is Mastan's issue too @MastanKhan . But I think there should be a respectable divorce where the US and Pakistan keep their business and trade relations intact. Pakistan is going to be a big market for the US companies to make $$. Not as big like you said that a $ 120 billion investment would come in. But not so small that even a $ 30-40 billion won't come in over 10 years. That much is for sure post 2018. So not bad. Both parties can do business together and do weapon business with the one's that suits them the best. Everyone's happy (I love it when everyone's happy ). And I am also well aware of a group of senior officers very focused on these developments in Rawalpindi

 

[MastanKhan]

Muhterem Mastan Bey:
How can you board on two trains simultaneously? Instead of boarding on a train which is packed with goons fighting for little better seats and constantly being scolded by the owner, what's about boarding on a train, may have little inferior seats, but served by the waiters and most welcomed by the owner?

With selam and dua..

Hi,

That is the problem with my air force / army. Their issue is that they have no one that can give them the true picture of what the U S is thinking about pakistan.

Their other problem is that they don't utilize the time given to them---they play with the window of opportunity thinking that it would stay open---.

When you look at this board---what do you see---the future of pakistan---they still are so brainless that they still want the F16's after being openly slapped by the U S.

 

[Hyperion]

Mate, it's India that wants a hyphenated relationship between them and the US.......... and as India is more vital/attuned to US's strategic objectives for the next two decades, that's what they are getting............. it was never us who wanted it to be an exclusive one between us and the US of A at the detriment of India.......... don't forget, we are Mussssalman, we can live with up to four lovers, it's Hindu bany-eeeeeee that is getting it's panties in a twist!

Trust you me, defense equipment is but just one facet of this very very complex strategic geometry........ and F16's were and are, nothing but a bargaining chip.....................

In the end, this much I can guarantee you, it's US's own stance that will hurt it economically and strategically in the long run, as it sleeps with the Hindu succubus..........

I know that. But at the same time, specially from the PAF's side, I am not seeing a strategy and that is Mastan's issue too @MastanKhan . But I think there should be a respectable divorce where the US and Pakistan keep their business and trade relations intact. Pakistan is going to be a big market for the US companies to make $$. Not as big like you said that a $ 120 billion investment would come in. But not so small that even a $ 30-40 billion won't come in over 10 years. That much is for sure post 2018. So not bad. Both parties can do business together and do weapon business with the one's that suits them the best. Everyone's happy (I love it when everyone's happy ). And I am also well aware of a group of senior officers very focused on these developments in Rawalpindi

 

[MastanKhan]

Oh really? There is a massive strategic realignment going on in the subcontinent, due to shifting of global economic center of gravity............ and we, Pakistan, have made our choice......... and so has India.......... what was your wish, for Pakistan to remain US's 'minor partner' for the next 5 decades as well? What did we get out of the last romantic sojourn with them? Maltay and suppa duppa F-16's and loads upon loads of backstab wounds..... the relationship was rotten from the very beginning........ and do remember one thing, the US doesn't make partners with smaller nations, they either make them their lackeys or colonize them, as we are poles apart from social perspective, therefore integration was never going to work anyways......... all in all, not their bad, it's the way world works and India suits their strategic objectives well. By the way, even if 200 million citizens of Pakistan were to present their collective arses to Uncle Sam, would they invest / loan etc etc in Pakistan in the amount of USD120 billion over the next 5 years? Yeah, right, only in our dreams............... F16's may become the reason for an amicable split between our two nations, which is a GOOD thing.

@Viper0011, yes I know about the law and many other laws that have culminated into this one, and we know the fine print as well............. and so do many concerned people here............. contrary to the belief of 'certain' fresh off the boat Pako-Yankees, Pakistan isn't asleep..............

My man,

Is something wrong with you----. I have been talking for the longest---move away from the U S---nicely and quietly---.

You didn't get nothing because you screwed up---because you thought yourself to be too clever for the U S and wanted to play the game.

Nobody wins from the U S on the rules that have been set by the U S---.

When you had the opportunity---and they gave that opportunity willingly---you wasted it---now when all has gone waste----why to blame the U S----.

I don't know from where you brought me in to the fray for being the U S lackey.

 

[Hyperion]

Oyen...... where did I say that you were an American lackey??????

What I am trying to actually convey to you is that you are too heavily invested in microcosm of fighter jets and bombers.......... there are a GAZILLION other things that make or break Pakistan, and trust you me, F16 aren't even a blip on that radar..........

I don't know from where you brought me in to the fray for being the U S lackey.

 

[volatile]

I've always maintained the F-16s are a foreign policy tool for the U.S to exert influence in Pakistan. I just think it's time Pakistan grows out of such a relationship.

Its a curious case where we knew this ,American knew this that we knew this ,but some how we still rely on this even knowing all this .Bottom line two possible reasons .
A. Either we are very smart milking the last drops from US
B. We really want to be loyal to US in any case .(too some extent it is right as in current world it is quite difficult for a country to survive without US on its side .

 

[Falcon26]

He is a self declared American

And apparently an expert on usage of English vocabulary

 

[Spectre]

Hindu succubus..........

It has been ages since I last saw that word reproduced but but Hindu Succubus..They just don't steal your soul but your wallets too

 

[T-72M1]

The US will pay for the F-16s, one way or another. It may not even be direct, but Pakistan will not pick up the tab.

It could very well be a case of Pakistan buying from a secondary country, and the US paying for those, thus circumventing congress. It has happened before with Pakistan buying from Jordan and upgrading them in Turkey, with US paying for most of the upgrade; this all happened under the radar and without congressional approval.

entitlement complex much ?

 

[MastanKhan]

Oyen...... where did I say that you were an American lackey??????

What I am trying to actually convey to you is that you are too heavily invested in microcosm of fighter jets and bombers.......... there are a GAZILLION other things that make or break Pakistan, and trust you me, F16 aren't even a blip on that radar..........

Hi,

But it is the weakest link in the chain--that is why I had stated for years---move away from the F16's----.

This thing is sulphuric acid----it burns thru---. Look for other venues---other aircraft---and make them capable to your needs.

The relationship between pakistan and the U S had again been ruined by the F16's---that has always been the bone of contention---.