US Government vs Congress: Sale of F16s to Pakistan

[niaz]

Regrettably military hardware is extremely expensive. When you want to buy a Mercedes, you can be expected to pay VW price so let us not belabour the cost issue. Pakistan always had the option to buy jets from anywhere else. Russia had offered to sell SU-35 but PAF went for more F-16’s for good reason, that we already operate this fighter hence no induction costs.

Obama did not offer F-16 to Pakistan. Pakistan made a request which was accepted by the Obama administration and despite strong objections from many Republican Congressmen, Obama got the sale approved. US has a certain way of doing things. President does not have unlimited powers.

If we were to buy jets from anywhere, say France, Britain, Russia or China, are we not expected to pay the full amount? Pakistan may get credit from China or Russia but will have to pay the full price regardless. Pakistan expected that like other purchases, a large part of the price will be funded from “Coalition support funds” and military assistance. This is where US Congress put their foot down. It is simply that you want to buy our jets, fine; just pay for the goods. Where does the insult or kneeling to US pressure come in? It is only that Pakistan expected special treatment which is not forthcoming.

Understand that this stumbling block has come up because Donald Trump claimed in a TV interview that he could get Dr Shakil Afridi out in two days. This is election year and Democrats don’t want to look impotent. Najam Sethi said in “Aapis ki baat” discussion that behind the scene Sartaj Aziz was told that you release Shakil Afridi (Doctor who helped tracing OBL) and the funds will be released. The whole thing now depends upon the Pak Army agreeing to free Shakil Afridi.

Are most of my compatriots incapable of objective thinking? Even the TV analysts consider this an insult. How is it an insult? Are we doing a favour to the US by accepting their F-16? I sincerely wish that as a nation we learn to look at the things objectively and deal with international diplomacy with cool head.

.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

This F-16 episode of fiasco reminds me of a joke I heard long ago. Two friends were hanging out in the village square. To embarrass his friend and, thus, have little fun, one friend pulled down the pants of the other friend in front of the entire Mahalle folks. Now, the friend with his pants down made a stern choice – he wouldn’t pull his pants up by himself, his friend needed to do it for him. Now, the entire Mahalle was looking at them with both curiosity and despise. It was the time to panic for the culprit....

 

[Super Falcon]

We have to decide do we keep insulting ourselves from US for F 16 which won't matter alot

India is doing good so we look other jets which we need the most

It is blessing in disguise

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

And I just also don't get one thing , IF16 new blokes are better then all the birds Then Why The Hell On Earth USA Wasting billions of Dollars on new Birds like F35 , F22 and Y they are Upgrading F18 And F15, and Why the hell on Earth they used A10s for Ground attacks, and they are still bringing more birds out and they are planning to close F16 production line ,,,,,,,,,??????????????????????????????????????
Please all of you Help me finding out the right answer so we can give that answer to JF17 fanboys and F16 Lovers
Thank you all

Well there is some pressure (from Lobby) plane makers who want to kill the F16 so they can sell expensive F35 birds to USA and other nations.

This always happens F-14 was capable bird but then people wanted to lobby for F-15 program which uncle paid for thus keeping the cycle going

If you really think about it if Uncle had the F-14 only even then it can perhaps beat most Airforces of the world

and All those trillions could have been spent on local programs

Even know folks are forcing retirement of planes that are technologically way more advance then many planes of world A-10 etc then F16 etc list goes on

 

[Viper0011.]

First sane article on the bro-code between the US and Pakistan....... let's see in the F16-funding saga, on which side of the divide will the proverbial camel sit........

@Quwa @Oscar @Horus your views?

@MastanKhan, calm down bro......... if anyone can play the leverage game, we can..... our whole existence, to this date, has been on playing this game...... and we've played it very well indeed!

You know, I'd agree with the bold part above. But here's the thing, if you read through the lines being published, it almost seems that the US has clearly drawn a line towards Pakistan. Pakistan is no longer coming up as an "ally with rocky relationship"......a chorus that used to be played throughout the US media till a couple of years ago.

Times are changing and now the US looks at Pakistan as "them", nothing like an ally or anything. In fact, if you realize, majority of the senators now say "China and Pakistan", putting the two nations into a very opposite side, than an "ally with a rocky relationship".

There is a law being passed soon which would allow India and Indians to have an equal status and partnership status to the US. If I was to guess, the day isn't far, when the US and India won't really require a visa for businessmen (starting from there). And it would go way beyond.

So with every passing day, that "leverage" you mentioned, is quickly going away rather much faster than it needed to. Also, check out the serious geo-political change around Pakistan. The US can now talk to Iran, the US is IN Afghanistan and I think the US will stay as it makes perfect sense. Plus, whatever the US now needs done in Afghanistan, it can get that done without firing a bullet, by using India. So what's left for Pakistan? The "leverage" is gone IMO. Anyone not reading all the above and understanding it, is REALLY making a huge misscalculation on that leverage part. Mushy effed up that leverage concepts and the US administration hated it as they knew the game and didn't want to play it anymore, thus the growing role of India in Afghanistan and across Asia!!

They teach you one thing in strategy, NEVER over-use one strategy. Everyone starts to understand it and it becomes obsolete before you know it. That's what happened here with regards to that "leverage" Pakistan played for so long.

Pakistan's best opportunity is to grow her economy to a level it can go to (top 12-14th place), that is the ONLY sustainable model for Pakistan to remain on good terms with everyone (the West, US in particular and then from an Indian standpoint). A modern, terrorism free, investor loving society attracts every investor, resulting in a change of policies towards the country from the US, India or whoever has the money to go invest in Pakistan and get $$$$ in higher profits due to booming economy.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hello All
I m not against F16 , They are Good Birds , BUT I just have one simple Question , We are currently storing 5 years spear Parts for F16 , HOW Much that cost us ?, how many parts we lost in stores?, And If Sanction come!!! , How many birds we can keep operational and for how long? I mean if we have spear parts for 80 birds and we use all 80 for 5 years the all parts gone Then What?
Keep one thing in Mind They are our Prime Birds Today and That status will remain same for 5 to 10 more Years.
Thank You All and waiting for answer .

Chacha"G",

People don't understand the current / future sanctions would not be mechanical in nature----they would be electronic.

Which means that the SANCTIONS would be IMMEDIATE.

The 5 --- 6 years spares won't mean nothing----.

Paf needs to move ahead from the F16's---they are done and dusted---just used those that are in service---have the J10C's---a parallel system---more potent---that is the only way to avoid sanctions on the 90 F16's that we have---.

 

[Falcon26]

Uncharacteristically balanced article by an Indian expert. Covered most issues well.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The bottomline here is this---even though the U S may finally decide to give the F16's---but the thing is they have already shown where the trend is headed.

I have told you people many a times----the U S does not BLIND SIDE YOU ----it gives you clear signals ahead of time---way ahead of time.

 

[alimobin memon]

And I just also don't get one thing , IF16 new blokes are better then all the birds Then Why The Hell On Earth USA Wasting billions of Dollars on new Birds like F35 , F22 and Y they are Upgrading F18 And F15, and Why the hell on Earth they used A10s for Ground attacks, and they are still bringing more birds out and they are planning to close F16 production line ,,,,,,,,,??????????????????????????????????????
Please all of you Help me finding out the right answer so we can give that answer to JF17 fanboys and F16 Lovers
Thank you all

F16 was initially a light aircraft just as jf17 is today. So When f16 evolved it had better payload and range. However the F22 f18 and f15 alike fighters provide more juice, range, payload furthermore it is just that USA armed forces branches have tendency to have their own class of fighter. even though f16 performed some roles well for US navy the marine and naval forces moved with f18 maybe due to extra funding if f18 preferred. Sometimes its marketing too I have always had a belief that what USA's Lockheed or general dynamics or Boeing market is to keep their companies open too its not always that the f16 is old its just that now too many countries have it when production line is shut off different countries will be forced to procure new and expensive jets even if their requirements are not that vast like some countries still don't have interest in stealth but in future they will be forced to buy these jets creating profiting for the corporate military industries.

Just like Intel does with processor 2% to 5% increase in performance (IN THEORY) yet people keep buying these newer expensive processors.

If I am not wrong so far jf17 does on considerable anti air roles with its normal radar and ew suite. Since there are no good in market PAF is pursuing f16 which has better aa capabilities

 

[Viper0011.]

Uncharacteristically balanced article by an Indian expert. Covered most issues well.

I've not seen anyone American using the term "Uncharacteristically" and I've been to 41 states and have lived in over 29!! This is such an Anglo-Indian English word. Wrong flags may be? You can use at-least ONE Indian flag, we don't mind

Chacha"G",

People don't understand the current / future sanctions would not be mechanical in nature----they would be electronic.

Which means that the SANCTIONS would be IMMEDIATE.

The 5 --- 6 years spares won't mean nothing----.

Paf needs to move ahead from the F16's---they are done and dusted---just used those that are in service---have the J10C's---a parallel system---more potent---that is the only way to avoid sanctions on the 90 F16's that we have---.

I agree with majority of your post. But if the PAF buys 3-4 more years worth of spares, and has 5 (estimated at anytime), theoretically, you can keep these machines flying like normal for the next 8-10 years. You may see 5-10% attrition but that would be expected. So that gives plenty of time to change the doctrine and either TOT another jet to build it under license, or get J-10C's or J-16 or J-31's and get people and tactics done on them in the next 3-4 years. F-16 then goes into a secondary (support) role and less hours will be put on those, meaning the 8-10 years life, may get extended out to 12 years. Not a bad deal. But I agree, Pakistan needed to acquire J-10 air-frame with TOT and call that JFT block III or IV. If they had started back in 2010, by now, you'd probably have 60-ish inducted already, with support, weapons and tactics, all in house available anytime.

The PAF always misses the big game, if you ask them, they say the Army takes up all the budget. Not sure who to really blame. But the growing economy would help post 2018 for sure.

 

[Spectre]

I've not seen anyone American using the term "Uncharacteristically" and I've been to 41 states and have lived in over 29!! This is such an Anglo-Indian English word. Wrong flags may be? You can use at-least ONE Indian flag, we don't mind
.

Mind following your own advice? I haven't seen any Black American so fanatically obsessed with Nawaz Sharif and Imran Khan.

 

[MilSpec]

I've not seen anyone American using the term "Uncharacteristically" and I've been to 41 states and have lived in over 29!! This is such an Anglo-Indian English word. Wrong flags may be? You can use at-least ONE Indian flag, we don't mind

Orangziab accusing others of being false flag. This is hilarious .

 

[Viper0011.]

Orangziab accusing others of being false flag. This is hilarious .

Hey security guy.....how's that $ 9 an hour job going for you? Learned English yet? Green card? Come work for me if you are legal yet. I'll pay you double than what you make . Good old PDF'er man, gotta respect it

 

[MilSpec]

Hey security guy.....how's that $ 9 an hour job going for you? Learned English yet? Green card? Come work for me if you are legal yet. I'll pay you double than what you make . Good old PDF'er man, gotta respect it

heheh...
no mian saab, no enlish me speak, how yoor cab running? no tipz today?

 

[MastanKhan]

I've not seen anyone American using the term "Uncharacteristically" and I've been to 41 states and have lived in over 29!! This is such an Anglo-Indian English word. Wrong flags may be? You can use at-least ONE Indian flag, we don't mind



I agree with majority of your post. But if the PAF buys 3-4 more years worth of spares, and has 5 (estimated at anytime), theoretically, you can keep these machines flying like normal for the next 8-10 years. You may see 5-10% attrition but that would be expected. So that gives plenty of time to change the doctrine and either TOT another jet to build it under license, or get J-10C's or J-16 or J-31's and get people and tactics done on them in the next 3-4 years. F-16 then goes into a secondary (support) role and less hours will be put on those, meaning the 8-10 years life, may get extended out to 12 years. Not a bad deal. But I agree, Pakistan needed to acquire J-10 air-frame with TOT and call that JFT block III or IV. If they had started back in 2010, by now, you'd probably have 60-ish inducted already, with support, weapons and tactics, all in house available anytime.

The PAF always misses the big game, if you ask them, they say the Army takes up all the budget. Not sure who to really blame. But the growing economy would help post 2018 for sure.

Hi,

At 40 mil a pop---paf can get 8 J10C's for 320 mil---40 mil for 4-6 spare engines and other parts etc---and 100 mil dollars for electronis warfare package from either turkey or italy---.

Roughly for 450 mil---they can get aesa equipped j 10 C---they just need to put 100 mil down payment for J10C and use 100 mil cash to entice Italy for electronics package---.

So---they would have the SD10B for now---PL15 BVR coming in the near future---and the chinese HOBS missile as well. If they could grind the chinese---they could drop the price by another 5-8 mil apiece.

The basic fundamentals dictate---that the base / foundation needs to stay strong---the F16 is the foundation---we have coming issues---so to strengthen it----you need similar capability aircraft---so another 3 sqdrn's of J10C's would solidify that base / foundation.

The posters here are commenting like the J10 C does not bring anything new to the table---I mean to say---what a brainless comment---.

It is to fill the sink hole that has been created with the F16 issue---. You have to have a similar aircraft to fill the sink hole to level off the ground---once that base is settled---then go the next step higher---.