US blocked transfer of Jordanian F-16s to Pakistan

[CHI RULES]

Hi,

Nations defense equipment and major weapons are not " managed like that ".

Desperate times require desperate measures. Perhaps PAF has done somethings to manage in the past during sanctions shall do same in future if required. I humbly say u may be right in general terms but not in case of Pak

Yes you are right in many ways F16 and J10 are more or less equal in offering probably F16 with more mature platform is half a step a head ,for me the capability of F16 is irrelevant in terms of sanctions and personally i like them to be replaced as early as possible in the meantime delta replaces delta . Mirages are bound to be replace and J10 with dedicated Cruise missile and SOW would be great addition , J10 and Jf17 if share common instruments it will be great for us

Sir, if we go for tailor made J10D then it makes sense shall be understandably better then JF17 due to heavier engine more space etc but should be ahead of our Block 52 F16s then it will have worth to be inducted.

But due to limited resources perhaps its better to concentrate on increasing pace of block3 Jf17 induction as well as try to get FC31 if possible in medium term to cater IAF 4.5+ jets in huge numbers. One are people negate is that IAF already using latest BVRs and WVRs meanwhile our A2A missiles are at least a generation behind.

 

[denel]

it was pretty much clear USA will not allow used f-16s, i mean used f-16s are very cheap allowing them to Pakistan is going to piss out India and even American companies are lot more

what this shows that it would be a suicide to buy new f-16s or any new US equipment including the Zulus
not that USA will block the sales it won't but that we dont enjoy NATO/major ally status any more

i doubt we even need the f-16 in presence of AESA thunder
diversity is good but cost is not worth it

Indeed; this may just be transitional as well unless Mr T gets booted out.
Just like there was foresight to get JF-17 and evolution plan, same needed to be in place for F-16; there is definitely lack of it. Nevertheless not too late. J11s or J-10s can be good replacements in worse come to it; with good bridges in progress with Russia, there would be no cause for J-11s not to make it over.

 

[volatile]

Sir, if we go for tailor made J10D then it makes sense shall be understandably better then JF17 due to heavier engine more space etc but should be ahead of our Block 52 F16s then it will have worth to be inducted.

But due to limited resources perhaps its better to concentrate on increasing pace of block3 Jf17 induction as well as try to get FC31 if possible in medium term to cater IAF 4.5+ jets in huge numbers. One are people negate is that IAF already using latest BVRs and WVRs meanwhile our A2A missiles are at least a generation behind.

Any thing having decent radar but sanction proof is better than block 52 (Mark my words) for J10D i dont know its development since J10C is already making some inroads for Pakistan a better solution will be J10 P (AESA/IRST) and forget about F16 after that ,for the second part i always believe

JF17 - 150 (block 2/3)
F16 -76 (To be replaced by J31/5th Gen)
J10P/C - 50-76 ( serve as platform for support to JF17)

If you see here the numbers still not make up so probably we need more planes so even after J31 induction of 50-100 birds still we need another platform

One are people negate is that IAF already using latest BVRs and WVRs meanwhile our A2A missiles are at least a generation behind.

There is some thing about AWACS and ERIEYe the role is confidential but i think there will be surprizes here remmember we have 500 AMRAMS

 

[ziaulislam]

i heard this news last year and i still believe Pakistan should not buy these more than 2 decade old Jordanian aircrafts which Jordan is selling because they are eyeing more modern jet and Pakistan is offering them a handsome amount to reach their quest for a new fighter instead pakistan should divert the funds to procure the modern jets or to become a part of 5th generation fighter development program with china or may be turkey this move will pay them off much better than keep gathering the old jets around the globe

Used one come very cheap. You will not be able to buy a single jet at price of these 16

 

[monitor]

Sir old blk-15 F-16s with the average of 5500+ flying hours (7 out of 15 have flown > 6K hours) without MLU and were supposed to replace an old F-7 squadron could not be termed as main offensive weapon ....

our main reasons for the attraction for the offered batch were
- The availability fighter jet with lower price (estimated price $ 5-7 million= approximately one third to one fourth of JF-17 price)
- Capability to fire BVR
- Easy integration with current PAF infrastructure
- Commonality with existing fleet
- Replacement of F-7 squadron
- Time saving of at least 12 months
- Financial savings of at least $ 295-325 million (approximate cost of 16 new JF-17 is around $350-400)

that deal was just a bonus .... we can not say that our main plan of action is affected by the denial of this deal ....

Unfortunately due to this advantage over new more capable fighter US will have some leverage over Pakistan until you find a suitable alternative to US masterpiece. JF-17 is still maturing so I think before getting fifth generation fighter paf should either lease few squadron of J-10B/C or get Chinese flanker of course with tacit Russian support as relation is getting better with Russian.

 

[MastanKhan]

I know but that's how it went through in the 1990's for spares.

Hi,

Well---then is the ENTITY stupid and dumb to be in that position one more time---.

Your posts talk about the 'heavy long range fighter'. Perhaps PAF needs to change the doctrines a lot to accommodate such a type of aircraft in 4.5 gen category. The cost factor is the first step, army and navy have made big purchases. Army keeps inducting various types of equipment in small quantity, navy is going for subs. PAF has to jump in and snatch its share too. Stop Looking around for F16 could be a good starting step. Light fighter is steady here. Heavy or stealth.

You ensured that every one reading your posts gets a thorough knowledge of JH-7B, hehehe.

I would say the SU34 is also a very capable aircraft in same category and a Russian option not flown by India. It can carry a variety of bomb load with ease and can have upgraded avionics suite. It has seen combat recently in COIN ops. French avionics has been tested on it (Thales Damocles pod, probably considered for JF17 too).

It can be integrated into Mirage squadrons and if data linked with them, it can act as mini AWACS and guide them in strike operations and is also an excellent option when Mirages retire.

Although your point has been long range strike missions, the amount of ammo a single SU34 can carry, PAF would not need to get 4 Mirage in the air for COIN or short-medium range strikes.

Hi,

My comments were on something else---regarding weapons purchase---

About 4 months ago---the JH7 beat the su 34 in strike missions in exercises in china---.

Re-furb JH7 can be had around 15-25 mil a piece---SU34 would be 50-70 mil a piece---.

The wing design of the JH7 is far superior to the su 34 for low low flight.

Desperate times require desperate measures. Perhaps PAF has done somethings to manage in the past during sanctions shall do same in future if required. I humbly say u may be right in general terms but not in case of Pak



Sir, if we go for tailor made J10D then it makes sense shall be understandably better then JF17 due to heavier engine more space etc but should be ahead of our Block 52 F16s then it will have worth to be inducted.

But due to limited resources perhaps its better to concentrate on increasing pace of block3 Jf17 induction as well as try to get FC31 if possible in medium term to cater IAF 4.5+ jets in huge numbers. One are people negate is that IAF already using latest BVRs and WVRs meanwhile our A2A missiles are at least a generation behind.

Youngman---,

Enough of sob stories---about time you started yelling out to the Paf---stop this BS.

This crying game from you guys need to end---you guys need to stand up and confront the culprits---.

 

[salman-1]

PAF has already waisted decades for an alternate option despite learning sanction lessons, but still have learned nothing out of it. All options are practical J10,11 but PAF had something stuck in her mind that she is still being loved by USA like in 80's when USA needed her the most. And the thing on paper is far more superior than the present in hand. I don't know any body feels it or not but I feel that a limited Air war is looming on us with the asheer baad of trump, but the Kim young has given American the longest possible danda after Russia, he's buisy there. The day he gets his *** free from there will face towards us for a try. Which he already announced in his some statement of hitting us any time. Get ready PAF

 

[Raider 21]

PAF has already waisted decades for an alternate option despite learning sanction lessons, but still have learned nothing out of it. All options are practical J10,11 but PAF had something stuck in her mind that she is still being loved by USA like in 80's when USA needed her the most. And the thing on paper is far more superior than the present in hand. I don't know any body feels it or not but I feel that a limited Air war is looming on us with the asheer baad of trump, but the Kim young has given American the longest possible danda after Russia, he's buisy there. The day he gets his *** free from there will face towards us for a try. Which he already announced in his some statement of hitting us any time. Get ready PAF

Agreed but there must be something bigger to it that most of us don't know. If policy was something that for example you were great at then you yourself would be calling the shots in PAF rather than sitting behind the comfort of an online defence forum would you not ??

 

[ziaulislam]

PAF has already waisted decades for an alternate option despite learning sanction lessons, but still have learned nothing out of it. All options are practical J10,11 but PAF had something stuck in her mind that she is still being loved by USA like in 80's when USA needed her the most. And the thing on paper is far more superior than the present in hand. I don't know any body feels it or not but I feel that a limited Air war is looming on us with the asheer baad of trump, but the Kim young has given American the longest possible danda after Russia, he's buisy there. The day he gets his *** free from there will face towards us for a try. Which he already announced in his some statement of hitting us any time. Get ready PAF

and if you look internationally every one tries to be more practical except PAF..i mean every country when buying new equipment dont ask how good is it but first ask whether it will be available or not

i dont expect anything major as why bother doing something when you can bride the military leadership and political leadership

can somebody explain why spend over billion dollars on Zuls ...does it matter how good or how cheap it is , if its not going to be available

Desperate times require desperate measures. Perhaps PAF has done somethings to manage in the past during sanctions shall do same in future if required. I humbly say u may be right in general terms but not in case of Pak



Sir, if we go for tailor made J10D then it makes sense shall be understandably better then JF17 due to heavier engine more space etc but should be ahead of our Block 52 F16s then it will have worth to be inducted.

But due to limited resources perhaps its better to concentrate on increasing pace of block3 Jf17 induction as well as try to get FC31 if possible in medium term to cater IAF 4.5+ jets in huge numbers. One are people negate is that IAF already using latest BVRs and WVRs meanwhile our A2A missiles are at least a generation behind.

people responsible here are the PAF and military leadership, what were they doing in 2000s, they could have easily gotten latest European systems for the f-16s..you are providing such a huge support to NATO but cant make NATO cough up equipment that you PAY for

 

[Storm Force]

PAF did not expect or forcast the MASSIVE strategic shift by USA towards India,

They expected USA to be its ally OR worse neutral over india/pak issues.

INSTEAD USA is now clearly made INDIA its single most important strategic partner in South Asia.

THE ISSUE FOR PAF is this THE F16 is its primary state of the art weapon TODAY to FIGHT THE IAF .
AND THE F16 is a USA plane....
USA will not support this fleet AGAINST INDIA now or the future. War.

FOR PAF cash is a huge hurdle and too simply scrap the F16s ie 73 planes is a FINANCIAL burden they cannot afford.

AND to buy a equivalent or better system from Russia Europe will be $billions of cost.

THAT LEAVES CHINA

BUT the impression I get is PAF is desperate to keep one major western WEAPON system in its inventory

ITS a major headache

THE USA/INDIA /ISRAEL axis is threatening your F16 credibility long term

 

[Trango Towers]

PAF fleet is seriously under threat to remain a effective detterant.

USA has utterly ruined that credible detterance with sanctions , and blocks to get spare upgrades and new fighters.

As for Pakistan buying at FULL PRICE for a new block 52 out of their own Pockets usa knows it is not happening

FOR THOSE SAYING USA LOST PAKISTAN ,,, I suggest you look at the F35 order book to 20+ airforces ............yeah you got it its worth $200 billion ....... THATS JUST F35

I do not believe they will lose too mucvh sleep over 8 to 10 f16 FPR RELATIVE pennies in contrast

THIS IS A MASSIVE STRATGIC CHANGE ------ I'm don't think most Pakistanis realise the effect of NO USA backing for PAF and its govt is going to have long term especially in a conflict with india

All usa diplomatic support
Global real time satalite intel
spares and parts
And even special forces advice will be supported and approved to india

I think USA is itching to get INDIA on side

You are correct. However this was on the cards for a long time. When the USA supplies weapons and controls yourblogistics they can put sanctions on you anytime. Pakistan has to learn from 1965 and 71 wars. The quicker these sanctions come the quicker we stand in our own feet. That's why paf is looking in-house for solutions like the aviation city and 5th generation aircraft that could possibly be in house design and developed.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

As I said before on same thread , If PAF had J-10s or J-11s can USA blackmail Pakistan on F-16s ??? Hell know . Because they know that PAF already have 2 birds one Light(JF-17) one Medium(J-10 or J-11) , now they know that PAF is in very bad position , PAF have to replace about 300 birds and that's a huge number...
We have to replace our Mirages too and in 15 years we also have to replace F-16s........
JF-17 is a good replacement for A-5s, F-6s and F7s total over 200+ , we need J-10 or J-11 (other western options are very expensive) to replace Mirages . For love Of Pakistan stop comparing J-10s with F-16s....... both are completely different and we need J-10 to replace Mirages and J-10s are way ahead from Mirages , and will bring many benefits , China already using them , we can learn many tactics from them , mastering this bird will not take long , and the funds that go into Mirages will go into J-10s.
I am not against F-16s if ion future we can have them then buy them , but , we have to think about Mirages and we have to replace them ASAP , and replacing every thing with JF-17(light bird) is suicidal. And for replacement J-10P or J-11P is chipset , reliable , safe and fastest option.

 

[BRAVO_]

Used one come very cheap. You will not be able to buy a single jet at price of these 16

no one knows the total value of this deal yet... plus... once these aircrafts were used by US national guards and 75% of their total flying hours were exhausted by them later at the time of handing over to Jordanian forces they gone through midlife upgrade and since the time Jordanian airforce is using them, back in 2015 i red somewhere 18 Jordanian pilots have reached 1000 flying hours on F-16s. this is 2017 what life left in those F-16s??? no one knows

 

[ziaulislam]

no one knows the total value of this deal yet... plus... once these aircrafts were used by US national guards and 75% of their total flying hours were exhausted by them later at the time of handing over to Jordanian forces they gone through midlife upgrade and since the time Jordanian airforce is using them, back in 2015 i red somewhere 18 Jordanian pilots have reached 1000 flying hours on F-16s. this is 2017 what life left in those F-16s??? no one knows

each of them have gone through MLU and have clocked about 6000 hr each and have around 2000 hr left in them thats solid 7-8 years and a very good stop gap till we gte the next gen fighter, MLUs are multirole fighters

i think we have not been good with our diplomacy since mushi left, zardari simply change the whole rule of engagement and opted for kari logger bill of 7.5 billion dollars completely closing the books on military aid


noone denies that f-16s are cheaper and better to operate than any other available options(hence countries in europe are grounding typhoons and opting for f-16s) but question is the availbilty

new f-16 shouldnt be opted as their is no mid life upgrade visibly available to pakistan but getting older at price 1/3 of new jf-17 is a very good option(and not avaible to pakistan)

 

[Fawad alam]

It seems PAF is praying for near future and hoping some miracles from JF17, no body knows there plans.