US attitude unacceptable - PM Gillani

[S-2]

"...with the exception of Dostom who was pro gov that time..."

Unity, I'm uncertain that Dostom has ever been anything but pro-Dostom. I've lost count of how many times that guy has crossed lines and double-crossed others.

Thanks.

 

[Ahmad]

united against any threat to Islam and Muslim Ummah.

Are you sure about this? I seriousely doubt your honesty in this regard.

 

[Ahmad]

"...with the exception of Dostom who was pro gov that time..."

Unity, I'm uncertain that Dostom has ever been anything but pro-Dostom. I've lost count of how many times that guy has crossed lines and double-crossed others.

Thanks.

Yes, that is right. He is one ****** criminal.

 

[waraich66]

Get back to real world!! Absolute majority of Afghanistan have a negative idea about Pakistan. If we turn the clock back to the point of Soviet invastion, the Afghans would think twice before trusting pakistana again. You are also wrong that the 2 countries have similiar interests, go and talk positive about pakistan on the streets of Afghanistan and you'll see the reaction from ordinary people. You also need to update your information, that this bloody so called NA was fighting against the russians and Fahim was a low level commondar in that time(with the exception of Dostom who was pro gov that time)

I want to save you from surprising shock , if you think ISAF could do better in Afghanistan then Russians.

We and Afghans share same values and faith ,is this is not enough to trust each other.

You and your Karzai regime will have end same as of Dr Najeebullah and Babrack.

 

[Ahmad]

I want to save you from surprising shock , if you think ISAF could do better in Afghanistan then Russians.

We and Afghans share same values and faith ,is this is not enough to trust each other.

You and your Karzai regime will have end same as of Dr Najeebullah and Babrack.

ISAF may do better or not, but that does not change the fact that people hate pakistan in that country, they have tasted your trust and friendship. Najibullah was a puppet just like Mullah Omar, as per Karzai he might be backed by the US, and he would be the last if I vote for, but today in Afghanistan for the very first time we have an elected parliament despite all its shortcomings, we have had a general election despite all its fraud(ironically all the fruad happened where the taliban were active but the first general election was widely fair and free), and people are hopeful for the future which is a painful point for pakistan.

Pakistan and Afghanistan do share the same faith, but not the same interrest and trust. If you guys plan your foreign policy based on this wrong perception then go and do it. that will lead you to where you dont want.

 

[Developereo]

ISAF may do better or not, but that does not change the fact that people hate pakistan in that country,

As a Kazakh, you do not speak for the majority of Afghans. We are well aware of your prejudice against Pakistan and your endless anti-Paksitan rants on this forum.

And please do not bother quoting any Western-sponsored 'poll' of Afghans. The last BBC poll quoted was conducted by a Bulgarian outfit which is hardly credible in the matter.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

The fact is that the vast majority of Pashtuns have solidarity with their Pashtun brothers in Pakistan. Some may dream of a greater Pashtun homeland, but that is a temporary fantasy that can be cured over time. After all, Anglosaxons in the US don't want to merge with Britain, and Punjabis in India and Pakistan don't want to merge. Most Pashtuns, too, want to live as patriotic citizens of their respective countries without merging into one country.

 

[Ahmad]

As a Kazakh, you do not speak for the majority of Afghans. We are well aware of your prejudice against Pakistan and your endless anti-Paksitan rants on this forum.

LoL, i am not a Kazakh, i am from Afghanistan. And I dont have any prejudice against Pakistan, dont turn a blind eye on the facts and truth, tellling the truth is not prejudice.

And please do not bother quoting any Western-sponsored 'poll' of Afghans. The last BBC poll quoted was conducted by a Bulgarian outfit which is hardly credible in the matter.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Forget about a western source, go in Afghanistan and see what oridinary people say about Pakistan, dont take my word for it, see it yourself. By the way, if this is not a reliable source for you, please provide a source which is reliable to see what the poll say.

The fact is that the vast majority of Pashtuns have solidarity with their Pashtun brothers in Pakistan.

Yes, that is true. that is why pakisan cant dare to seal off the border to separate them, their merging is not a dream, it is something that paksitan has always been fearful of.

Most Pashtuns, too, want to live as patriotic citizens of their respective countries without merging into one country.

Great Bacha Khan had another idea.

 

[Developereo]

LoL, i am not a Kazakh, i am from Afghanistan.

I am going by your 'Location' and the content of your posts, which are always pro-India and anti-Pakistan.

Since we can't trust your flag selection, I am not sure what else we can trust about what you say.

And I dont have any prejudice against Pakistan, dont turn a blind eye on the facts and truth, tellling the truth is not prejudice.

Nonsense. You have a consistent trend of posting anti-Pakistan, pro-India rants. Maybe you are one of the many Indians hiding behind other countries flags, who knows?

Forget about a western source, go in Afghanistan and see what oridinary people say about Pakistan, dont take my word for it, see it yourself.

It all depends who you hang out with. You clearly hang out with the anti-Pakistan crowd, which is is no way representative of rural and Pashtun Afghans.

Yes, that is true. that is why pakisan cant dare to seal off the border to separate them, their merging is not a dream, it is something that paksitan has always been fearful of.

As indicated, most Pashtuns are, or can be, convinced to live happily in their own country. Paksitan would like open borders with Afghanistan (once the conflict there dies down) so that Pashtuns across the border can freely interact with each other. This does not mean the two countries have to merge; that is only a fantasy enjoyed by a few Pashtuns and nurtured by India.

 

[Ahmad]

I am going by your 'Location' and the content of your posts, which are always pro-India and anti-Pakistan.

Since we can't trust your flag selection, I am not sure what else we can trust about what you say.

Dont be funny. This proxy war in our country have left many of us homeless and we have taken refuge all over the world. There are patriot Pakistanis who have other countries' flats in their profiles, what can you say about them?

Nonsense. You have a consistent trend of posting anti-Pakistan, pro-India rants. Maybe you are one of the many Indians hiding behind other countries flags, who knows?

I have never been anti paksitani or anti another country. Yes, i am anti Pakistani foreign policy which is totally different matter. If you want to discuse things properly, please dont put any baseless accusations on me.

It all depends who you hang out with. You clearly hang out with the anti-Pakistan crowd, which is is no way representative of rural and Pashtun Afghans.

Let me put a phrase here which is always used by you guys on this forum: Enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine. Do you wana know what pashtoons in afghanistan say? they say Lar aw bar Pakhtoon sara yaw de. it means Pashtoons from the other side and this side are one, they consider Pakhtonkhaw as their own home which was detached by the British and given to that time of India. Remeber Durand line.

As indicated, most Pashtuns are, or can be, convinced to live happily in their own country. Paksitan would like open borders with Afghanistan (once the conflict there dies down) so that Pashtuns across the border can freely interact with each other. This does not mean the two countries have to merge; that is only a fantasy enjoyed by a few Pashtuns and nurtured by India.

Yes, you'll see this border change to someting else in the future. And Zahir Shah, Dawood Khan, Najib, Hashim Khan, Sardar Naem, Anwar Ul Haq Ahadi, Bacha Khan and his party, Ashraf Ghani and many more are not a fantasy by a few Pashtoons, they are the leaders of Pashtoons who roots in Pashtoo communities regarding their faith or way of life.

 

[Developereo]

There are patriot Pakistanis who have other countries' flats in their profiles, what can you say about them?

I don't know any Pakistanis on this forum who don't show their Pakistani flag. Unlike many Indians. And you.

I have never been anti paksitani or anti another country. Yes, i am anti Pakistani foreign policy which is totally different matter. If you want to discuse things properly, please dont put any baseless accusations on me.

You have selective amnesia regarding Indian meddling in Afghanistan's foreign affairs ever since independence, including the Soviet invasion era. And you continually downplay Pakistan's $500 million contribution to Afghanistan's relief compared to India's (relatively) measly $1.2 billion. These facts alone betray your anti-Pakistan, pro-India prejudice in the matter.

Do you wana know what pashtoons in afghanistan say?

I think I'd rather hear it from a Pashtun than a Kazakh/Indian pretending to speak for others.

Yes, you'll see this border change to someting else in the future. And Zahir Shah, Dawood Khan, Najib, Hashim Khan, Sardar Naem, Anwar Ul Haq Ahadi, Bacha Khan and his party, Ashraf Ghani and many more are not a fantasy by a few Pashtoons, they are the leaders of Pashtoons who roots in Pashtoo communities regarding their faith or way of life.

The border stays, Indian dreams notwithstanding.

 

[Ahmad]

you have got Australian(or New Zealand) flag in your profile as well.

 

[All-Green]

I dislike blame games and want to look towards a solution in which various options are explored but the ultimate aim is to improve the conditions of Afghanistan and Pakistan...i will always stand by this vision but i have to say that i too am quite disappointed by such unilateral views which utterly regard Pakistan as the root of the problem...without looking into your own backyards...without giving an iota of attention to what you all have contributed to in this unfolding chaos...you simply pin blame on Pakistan...I am of the generation which was raised in the era of the Afghan war...do not think that i have forgotten what was the Afghan war and who did what...
In an ideal world...Soviet Union should have held its horses, USA should have stayed the hell out of Afghanistan...Pakistan should have left it alone as internal matter...Hundreds of Afghan leaders should not have sought the help of Pakistan and other countries for all sorts of aids and help in this civil war...did they refuse help, aid, weapons?
You think all of help was paid by U.N. USA and no impact was there on our country, our resources, our people?
The refugees were generously helped by most Pakistanis, our families contributed their money and lots of goods were donated to the affected families...we suffered due to the smuggling mafia which became very strong in Pakistan and shifted many of its operations here from Afghanistan...we suffered from the weapons which were brought into this region...the organized crime including gang robbery and especially abductions soared during this period...

We had a huge cost to pay for which i do not seek monetary compensation for...however i do feel anger when such insulting oversimplifications are made of the many reasons than my brethren helped the Afghans...we did it out of spirit and faith...we did not foresee the terrible outcome of all of this war...it was our failing but not ours alone...that is all i say but even that much is too hard to handle for some who think that the bad parts were our doing and all the positive actions were carried out by USA and Afghan people...
All are to be blamed if we are talking about blame...then share it and be done with it...do not blame only my country for all of this.

So majority of Afghans hate Pakistan?
The ordinary Pakistanis and even the governments have always tried to help the Afghans, i have seen them become a very large part of Pakistani society...i cannot believe this but if it is the truth then it shall be more of Afghanistan's loss if they identify Pakistan as the cause of all their misery...

It was the Afghans who fought against their pro soviet government in a civil war in which USA was very heavily involved not just Pakistan ...no way could the soviets have been defeated had this been just an external movement...most of the world knows this for a fact...
If we always go back to the perception that Pakistan is the daddy of Taliban then USA is the grand daddy of all extremism in this region...if this is the crude oversimplification that is always attached to Pakistan then what else can i conclude about USA?
What moral high ground then i attach to USA when i am preached to about how immoral and evil my own country and its people were towards Afghans?

How simple it is to blame Pakistan which has suffered second only to Afghanistan...how easy to start your history from only when Mullah Omar had already gained control of most of Afghanistan and Pakistan government recognized them...instead we should have recognized the hundreds of warlords as a single government...hundreds of times....yes?
We could not have ignored the Taliban when they had unified government in most of Afghanistan...when the US and its allies landed in Afghanistan and actively supported the Northern Alliance they cared little for the moral standing of the ranks of Northen Alliance...but Pakistan was supposed to see whether the Taliban were good enough to merit our attention or not, despite their solid control of Afghanistan which was unprecedented since the Afghan war started...these guys were ex Mujahideen as well...we have had example of Saudi Arabia which had a similar government style as that of Taliban so it was not like we were condemning Afghans to hell...which is not in our power to do so anyways because no one can impose a foreign government in Afghanistan... a lesson learnt by Soviets and one which should be realized by all.

I guess we are the omnipotent presence in the world because in a country like Afghanistan we managed to impose our toadies on such a nation within just 4 years against the collective will of all its people who were all in love with their ideal ruling council of warlords?
On the other hand the entire world is struggling to oust the same lackies and foreign invaders who have no support from the locals and just resort to hit and run from Pakistan which is hitting some of their supporters very hard though not all of them as alleged...how is it possible that still we hear complaints of Taliban and talks of failed strategy and more boots on the ground... i wonder if all the trouble is from the Pakistan border then why dont the world united forces bring their forces to the border and use their advanced gadgets and equipment to keep hitting these hit and run groups crossing the border...why spread your forces thin all over Afghanistan when every thing is done by Pakistani raised forces which cross over from Pakistan?
I am quite positive that there is a lot more to Taliban than Pakistan...but then i guess i have been indocrtinated not to sift out the truth...being Pakistani and all.

If Taliban never had and still do not have any support in Afghanistan then i cannot ever imagine them stirring so much trouble with a huge war being waged against them...
I guess they are no more a trouble since everyone hates them and there is no support for them...if so then no more need to push Pakistan...i guess you guys have it all figured out and sorted out and it is just a matter of time...no guerilla movement can succeed without local support when faced with a focused machine of war and with so much disparity in firepower...

When i talk about talking to them i propose this as a viable, logical strategy. I am saying this that eventually this will make things better as it did for us in Swat...if they are willing to listen then it is good...if not then that is even better for those who dislike them because it will take away their local support...if however the experts think that they do not have local support...then that explains why aversion to such an approach...
Still i fail to understand why the mention of dialogue or mention of Omar by Karzai as if inviting them to resolve a family dispute?
If they are so much loathed and hated and perceived as absolute devils...then why is this even being mentioned by those across the border...those victims who supposedly hate Pakistan for imposing Taliban on them...enough said on this from my end, for now...i guess all are welcome to form their opinion...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If you guys plan your foreign policy based on this wrong perception then go and do it. that will lead you to where you dont want.

It is rather rich that you claim Pakistan's foreign policy is based on 'wrong perceptions', when your own comments continually imply that Afghanistan and Afghans refuse to accept Pakistan's territorial integrity and harbor irredentist ambitions.

Afghanistan's foreign policy has since Pakistan's independence been based on hostility towards Pakistan, a refusal to accept her territorial integrity (and initially accept the nation itself) and support for various insurgent movements that tried to spread the 'Pashtunistan' cause.

Even now Afghanistan refuses to accept Pakistan's territorial integrity:

Enayatullah Nabiel, director-general in the Economic Relations department of the Afghan ministry of foreign affairs, in Dec 2009:

Although the 1965 Afghan-Pakistan trade and transit pact only mentions that goods can traverse through certain “entry and exit points,” Pakistan now wanted to change this language of entry and exit points to the word “border,” a word that is anathema to the Afghan Pashtuns.

Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand Line believe the line was a cunning conspiracy created by the British to separate Pashtun tribes living in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Nabiel said.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/38920-afghan-pak-transit-trade-2.html#post587507

Karzai in 2006:

Dubbing Durand line as a line of hatred Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said he does not accept this line as it has raised a wall between the two brothers.

http://www.afghannews.net/index.php?action=show&type=news&id=201

There are only two possible implications behind the statements and views of Afghan officials, that the Durand Line is irrelevant in the sense that Afghanistan and Pakistan should move towards a confederation, or that the Durand Line is irrelevant in the sense that Afghanistan claims Pakistan's territory.

Which is it for you?

 

[karan.1970]

wasnt this thread about US attitude??

 

[Patriot]

It is rather rich that you claim Pakistan's foreign policy is based on 'wrong perceptions', when your own comments continually imply that Afghanistan and Afghans refuse to accept Pakistan's territorial integrity and harbor irredentist ambitions.

Afghanistan's foreign policy has since Pakistan's independence been based on hostility towards Pakistan, a refusal to accept her territorial integrity (and initially accept the nation itself) and support for various insurgent movements that tried to spread the 'Pashtunistan' cause.

Even now Afghanistan refuses to accept Pakistan's territorial integrity:

Enayatullah Nabiel, director-general in the Economic Relations department of the Afghan ministry of foreign affairs, in Dec 2009:


Karzai in 2006:

http://www.afghannews.net/index.php?action=show&type=news&id=201

There are only two possible implications behind the statements and views of Afghan officials, that the Durand Line is irrelevant in the sense that Afghanistan and Pakistan should move towards a confederation, or that the Durand Line is irrelevant in the sense that Afghanistan claims Pakistan's territory.

Which is it for you?

I think the answer to Afghanistan's problem is simple: Don't mess with Pakistan.Sooner or later, Afghan daddies America and other ISAF countries are going to pack up and leave just imagine the retaliation from Pakistani side.You'll be in deep ****.