US attitude unacceptable - PM Gillani
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Patriot
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Yep, policy gone wrong unity.We should've just taken out the Pushtun areas of Afghanistan from Afghanistan and merge them with Pakistan just after end of Soviet Afghan war but that might have happened only if General Akhtar and General Zia were alive.
All-Green
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Don't know if you've seen this but I'd encourage you to read the DAWN, DAILY TIMES, and WSJ opinion pieces that I've posted.
They're all especially relevant to this thread and your article and won't in any way derail the thread's intent with sham racist diatribes from beijing toadies. Ms Farhat Taj's article is one of them. It's located in the DAWN link.
EDIT: Actually, I'll just post the original right here-
FARHAT TAJ On Drones-DAILY TIMES
Irfan Husain had this to say about Ms. Taj's studies in DAWN here-
Howling At The Moon-DAWN
And this from the Wall Street Journal-
The Drone Wars-WSJ Op-ed
Thanks.
Casualties have to be confirmed no doubt and that is a valid point, but the problem with Farhat Taj's article is again about accuracy...
What source is she quoting here...how many people in Waziristan does she come across to form a definitive opinion?
Does she even go there?
I am sure she hates TTP and so do i, but to say that drones are highly praised amongst Tribals is quite a bit of revelation to me...
A Tribal calling for Indian or Israeli help against TTP is probably a figment of her imagination...but still, i can understand the past frustration of the tribals and associate with it as well.
I am not denying the hate for TTP which many tribals and Pakistanis feel.
I am having serious doubts about this article which i am not rubbishing completely but i am certainly not willing to base my definitive opinion on it...it is not the truth...rather it is questioning the proclaimed truth...which has to be ascertained as far as the numbers are concerned but the impact of drone strikes regarding anti government sentiment is a fact and not fiction.
Regarding the claim of the author that no TTP or Al qaeda have been killed by Pakistan Army, that is sheer contrast to the major operations in Malakand/Swat and SWA...we have captured around 8000 TTP fighters and most Al Qaeda operatives have been captured by us.
Regarding the accuracy of shelling...there has been a tremendous improvement in this accuracy unlike the operations of early 2000 in FATA...one should learn from their failures and Pakistan Army did learn a lot...we are using SSG for reconnaissance extensively and precision munitions have been used a lot.
There was a time when FC was most reluctant to fight the insurgents due to tribal affiliations of the insurgents...now FC has improved remarkably and does not shy away from dealing decisive blows to their former tribesmen supporting TTP.
Regarding Army, our tactics and aggression in outmaneuvering the TTP was the most bitter surprise to them...this is no more the lumbering giant army which was not fleet footed enough for the TTP...now we very frequently outmaneuver them and punish them severely without causing harm to civilians...
It takes time and effort to improve and i think time is now right for US to stop using drones and for Pakistan Army to use the drones whenever needed...this brings us to the drones themselves which need to be handed over in one form or another, under Pakistani control, i am sure some sort of arrangement can be made which suits both parties...i am sure of that...if only some serious thinking is done based on the fact that Al Qaeda and TTP is common enemy...
The fact that occasional drone strikes are needed is not lost on me, however we can improve the perception by taking a few steps...other wise it shall be a strategic backfire if the propaganda machinery of TTP succeeds in using this to recruit more and more tribals, against the wishes of their elders who are trying to regain control...
Using religio-fascist proxies is a policy doomed for failure. Pak, Iran will have to let them go if they want stable prosperous future.
Barrett
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"Policy gone wrong."
That's the understatement of the last decade.
Thanks.
We are only learning from our Yankee friends how to implement the policy of "Use and Abuse"
An Afghan criticizing Pakistan's policy when his fellow country men very conveniently come to Pakistan for shelter and enjoy their stay on the expense of the Pakistani people.
I'm surprised that you still have the balls to talk of policy failures after the world saw your policy for the very same afghans who were called "Mujahideen"
You Americans have never respected the sovereignty of any country and then you expect us to favor your policies of aggression. The Afghans are fighting a war for their independence just like they fought the soviets on your expenses, this time it's you who is the aggressor and occupier.
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that ?
Come out of your shell and stop fooling yourself.
S-2
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"...how many people in Waziristan does she come across to form a definitive opinion?"
Do you not recall? She was involved in the AIRRA Institute telephone survey about a year ago with 600 professionals inside FATA. She's pashtu from the area. Why does Husain believe she's uniquely qualified?
Ask him. Perhaps he knows her.
Irfan.husain@gmail.com <Irfan.husain@gmail.com>
Also bear in mind that she now has access, as do others, to IDPs from this area.
"I am not denying the hate for TTP which many tribals and Pakistanis feel..."
That's good because I understand that over 700 tribal maliks have been murdered at the hands of the TTP, Afghan Taliban, and A.Q. Does that seem accurate?
"...it is questioning the proclaimed truth..."
As I've done countless times here. There's a strike. Buildings destroyed. People killed. Site cordoned by the taliban instantly. Death to any possessing a cell-phone, correct?
Then the obligatory calls to the newspapers. From who, exactly? Info? It comes from these "calls" or ELINT intercepts that are discussed by anonymous officials who won't go on the record.
"...but the impact of drone strikes regarding anti government sentiment is a fact and not fiction..."
Ms. Taj suggests that impact is far more noted EAST of the Indus river than within the tribal areas. That is, without question, true. However, is it based upon accurate information about the TRUE effect of these strikes? Of course not.
We've none.
Only our intelligence agencies have a clue. Only A.Q. and the taliban know for certain. What, however, is promoted as truth and then echoed to all corners of the earth? She even accuses the U.S. media of picking up the drum and beating it-with good reason. We've our own anti-war sentiment eager to latch hold of anything denigrating our own efforts.
Please read her and Mr. Husain CAREFULLY. They cover the net impact of dissemblance.
"Regarding the claim of the author that no TTP or Al qaeda have been killed by Pakistan Army..."
"People complain that not a single TTP or al Qaeda member has been killed so far by the Pakistan Army, whereas a lot of collateral damage has taken place."
All-Green, read the above closely. She doesn't make that claim. She contends that tribals do. I don't entirely believe it and have NO doubt that the P.A. is having a considerable effect on the TTP. OTOH, when H. Mehsud sits in Shaktoi village of Sararogha district, SWA, I also conclude that your work remains inconclusive and far from finished.
I, however, also believe that your army is entirely capable of collateral damage. You've no special immunity to such and I've no longer any reason to believe that ALL your innocents were evacuated prior to Raj-I-Nijat. Undoubtedly some remained. If innocent, it wasn't by choice.
"...we are using SSG for reconnaissance extensively and precision munitions have been used a lot..."
And America doesn't? Yet the American and British forces have had accidents and mistakes, have we not? Be careful here.
"...this is no more the lumbering giant army which was not fleet footed enough for the TTP..."
Well, I will confess that despite your civilian officials hearing rumors of H. Mehsud's presence in Saktoi and, evidently, America developing sufficient intelligence to attempt a strike, your army didn't get the news and air assault the location with the agility you profess.
THAT would have provided definitive evidence of H. Mehsud's death at the hands of some young P.A. trooper. Mehsud is the highest profile HVT on Pakistan's (not America's) target list. Had I a HINT that he was there from your local officials, I'd have found every helicopter available and lifted a battalion right on top of him.
Bloody? Maybe. Worth it? Hell yes.
Instead we've PREDATOR and...questions.
"the propaganda machinery of TTP succeeds in using this to recruit more and more tribals"
The TTP? I'm sorry, sir, but it's the propaganda machinery of the GoP and men like Gilani that are raising the uproar. YOU are the unwitting accomplices of the TTP's objectives with your government's eagerness to accept their assertions of wanton slaughter at the hands of American PREDATORS instead of forthrightly fighting the dissemblance.
In effect, while PREDATOR lifts from airstrips on your land, you hide behind the taliban to dissemble the relationship. Sheer hypocrisy that's been openly discussed on this board many, many times.
Here's another interesting column. Abu Zolfiqar elsewhere has asked that I (yes, I) testify before congress to assist the acquisition of PREDATORS by your government. Seriously. He provided me with the PAF air attache's phone # in Washington D.C. and asked that I call him.
I've no political push of any consequence nor moral inclination, if so, to support such and was somewhat surprised by his earnestness. Nonetheless, I recommended that he contact THIS gentleman, Andrew Exum of CNAS (Center For New American Security), and enlist his assistance. You might enjoy his perspective on the matter.
Thanks for the due diligence on the editorials. I'm appreciative because there's merit to Ms. Taj's contentions even if lacking complete accuracy herself. Perhaps even more so in Irfan Husain's thoughts.
Thanks.
Do you not recall? She was involved in the AIRRA Institute telephone survey about a year ago with 600 professionals inside FATA. She's pashtu from the area. Why does Husain believe she's uniquely qualified?
Ask him. Perhaps he knows her.
Irfan.husain@gmail.com <Irfan.husain@gmail.com>
Also bear in mind that she now has access, as do others, to IDPs from this area.
"I am not denying the hate for TTP which many tribals and Pakistanis feel..."
That's good because I understand that over 700 tribal maliks have been murdered at the hands of the TTP, Afghan Taliban, and A.Q. Does that seem accurate?
"...it is questioning the proclaimed truth..."
As I've done countless times here. There's a strike. Buildings destroyed. People killed. Site cordoned by the taliban instantly. Death to any possessing a cell-phone, correct?
Then the obligatory calls to the newspapers. From who, exactly? Info? It comes from these "calls" or ELINT intercepts that are discussed by anonymous officials who won't go on the record.
"...but the impact of drone strikes regarding anti government sentiment is a fact and not fiction..."
Ms. Taj suggests that impact is far more noted EAST of the Indus river than within the tribal areas. That is, without question, true. However, is it based upon accurate information about the TRUE effect of these strikes? Of course not.
We've none.
Only our intelligence agencies have a clue. Only A.Q. and the taliban know for certain. What, however, is promoted as truth and then echoed to all corners of the earth? She even accuses the U.S. media of picking up the drum and beating it-with good reason. We've our own anti-war sentiment eager to latch hold of anything denigrating our own efforts.
Please read her and Mr. Husain CAREFULLY. They cover the net impact of dissemblance.
"Regarding the claim of the author that no TTP or Al qaeda have been killed by Pakistan Army..."
"People complain that not a single TTP or al Qaeda member has been killed so far by the Pakistan Army, whereas a lot of collateral damage has taken place."
All-Green, read the above closely. She doesn't make that claim. She contends that tribals do. I don't entirely believe it and have NO doubt that the P.A. is having a considerable effect on the TTP. OTOH, when H. Mehsud sits in Shaktoi village of Sararogha district, SWA, I also conclude that your work remains inconclusive and far from finished.
I, however, also believe that your army is entirely capable of collateral damage. You've no special immunity to such and I've no longer any reason to believe that ALL your innocents were evacuated prior to Raj-I-Nijat. Undoubtedly some remained. If innocent, it wasn't by choice.
"...we are using SSG for reconnaissance extensively and precision munitions have been used a lot..."
And America doesn't? Yet the American and British forces have had accidents and mistakes, have we not? Be careful here.
"...this is no more the lumbering giant army which was not fleet footed enough for the TTP..."
Well, I will confess that despite your civilian officials hearing rumors of H. Mehsud's presence in Saktoi and, evidently, America developing sufficient intelligence to attempt a strike, your army didn't get the news and air assault the location with the agility you profess.
THAT would have provided definitive evidence of H. Mehsud's death at the hands of some young P.A. trooper. Mehsud is the highest profile HVT on Pakistan's (not America's) target list. Had I a HINT that he was there from your local officials, I'd have found every helicopter available and lifted a battalion right on top of him.
Bloody? Maybe. Worth it? Hell yes.
Instead we've PREDATOR and...questions.
"the propaganda machinery of TTP succeeds in using this to recruit more and more tribals"
The TTP? I'm sorry, sir, but it's the propaganda machinery of the GoP and men like Gilani that are raising the uproar. YOU are the unwitting accomplices of the TTP's objectives with your government's eagerness to accept their assertions of wanton slaughter at the hands of American PREDATORS instead of forthrightly fighting the dissemblance.
In effect, while PREDATOR lifts from airstrips on your land, you hide behind the taliban to dissemble the relationship. Sheer hypocrisy that's been openly discussed on this board many, many times.
Here's another interesting column. Abu Zolfiqar elsewhere has asked that I (yes, I) testify before congress to assist the acquisition of PREDATORS by your government. Seriously. He provided me with the PAF air attache's phone # in Washington D.C. and asked that I call him.
I've no political push of any consequence nor moral inclination, if so, to support such and was somewhat surprised by his earnestness. Nonetheless, I recommended that he contact THIS gentleman, Andrew Exum of CNAS (Center For New American Security), and enlist his assistance. You might enjoy his perspective on the matter.
Thanks for the due diligence on the editorials. I'm appreciative because there's merit to Ms. Taj's contentions even if lacking complete accuracy herself. Perhaps even more so in Irfan Husain's thoughts.
Thanks.
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Yes, it was only possible if Pashtoons of Afghansitan wanted it. Zia had success in his policies in those days because they were playing reliouse card to fool Afghans, do you think he had any chance if he was open about his desires.
All-Green
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"When PA is taking decisive action then to have another allied entity take independent action in our airspace is not something we need because it really makes mockery of the sovereignty we want to project..."
You've taken action, sir, but let's not get ahead of the facts. DECISIVE action it is not from America's perspective. It is self-admittedly incremental from Pakistan's perspective. You've stated it's all you can do now to attack your most immediate threat.
Hardly DECISIVE. H. Mehsud sat yesterday in a village inside Sararogha district SWA. Your officials admitted hearing rumors of such. Then so too your military intelligence and ISI. Was there an SSG air assault on the location of your most notorious foe? Clearly that would have provided the boots on the ground to ascertain H. Mehsud's exact status and afforded the P.A. the type of victory you wish.
Didn't happen but we got the same info and tried to do something about it. Maybe we succeeded. Maybe not.
"For a tribal elder sitting in FATA he can defend his own nation's drones killing the guilty (even if drones are being used with help of USA), but a foreign country constantly interfering and choosing targets in his territory cannot be really defended by him and thus many elders will become unpopular in front of relentless anti US campaign of the militants..."
Ms. Taj disagrees with you and begs you to lift the brutality that these people have suffered for eight years. Mr. Husain seems to believe she possesses unique local credibility on this matter.
Your comments strike me as one who hasn't SERIOUSLY read and considered their thoughts. They, btw, mirror mine of some years here. I've LONG questioned the dubious claims of civilian deaths. I've long railed against the enslavement of the FATA tribes by these external and internal foes. I've long railed at the burden you place on America for your own sovereign duplicity.
You want PREDATOR. So does Abu Zolfiqar and others. I've no faith, though, that you'd use that asset to prosecute targets attacking Afghanistan. With PAF-marked PREDATOR you'd have no compelling reason to allow OUR PREDATORS into your skies and might likely decide you've all the assets necessary to fight YOUR enemies and all the PAF F-16s necessary to now defend your airspace.
What, All-Green, might America/ISAF and Afghanistan do to defend ourselves from Haqqani and Omar on your lands? Suffer another eight years awaiting your "maybe" attack upon them? Should we then send fighters to escort PREDATOR? ARCLIGHT strikes with B-52s. THAT, All-Green, just might give your tribals something to complain about.
Or simply continue to accept the daily pounding rendered on Afghans and ourselves from these beasts safely residing upon your lands?
Won't happen. We'll defend ourselves as we've every right AND obligation to do so.
Your government and military...nay, YOU lack the forthright courage to say,
"Yes. We made a mistake and allowed these men upon our lands at the expense of you, our citizens. We saw them as assets but are wrong in our objectives. We seek assistance from others to rid ourselves of them."
Please read the editorials and ruminate quietly on their content because there's serious truth in there. Ms. Taj goes too far in her claims. She uses absolutes like "all" too often. Nothing is absolute but her premises are valid and utterly rejected by a myopic anti-Americanism promoted by your own government at our expense.
That, sir, is duplicitous treachery made at our expense and as Senator Levin indicates, we've grown tired of your charade.
Thanks.
Sir, you do me a grave injustice here.
I think i have always reiterated the fact since the day i joined this forum that TTP was involved in eliminating tribal leadership from day one...i have friends who suffered because of it...i know this to be 100% true...
The problem with youth is that they are easily used and lack of leadership in tribes has put them at tremendous risk...this all brings about a dangerous situation whereby anti US propaganda by TTP is and will be used very aggressively...
Why not go for a formula whereby our common enemy will be targeted without any such perception?
I fail to understand the need for this divergence...
With credible evidence meriting serious timely action the SSG has been mobilized many times in past year...they have lost many brilliant officers and men in DECISIVE engagements and inflicted a lot of punishment upon the hardcore TTP...they are certainly not sitting on their behinds...
we have picked up one end and have taken a series of actions, if indeed Haqqani is sitting at the other end of TTP...there is no way he shall be spared...
On other hand even if he is towing a different line than TTP and is isolated via current operations...i am sure even then he will have to either surrender or stop...
You should be aware that once we have started a war with TTP...we cannot roll back the military till either TTP are eliminated/surrender or their command and control is destroyed...only once they are no more able carry out their attacks will the military be pulled back.
You deny completely with 100% confidence that there are Afghans in the ranks of Omar who are fighting USA because USA invaded Afghanistan and not because they love Osama?
There are many Afghan nationalists who are siding with Omar to fight a war against occupation forces...due to severe ethnic tension resulting from NA hold on Afghanistan, this is something very pronounced amongst the Pashtun belt...what is needed is a compromise to focus on terrorist elimination and integration of Taliban into a composite dialogue...let us see how it proceeds as well...if they are too rigid and reject even a sensible arrangement then they shall lose support...no one wants perpetual war and if a reasonable option for peace is rejected by Omar then he will lose support politically...otherwise it is good news for everyone except Osama...
If sense prevails then I am sure it is a matter of time when these people are talked to...however they will have their own terms as well and that to me seems the issue because NA is highly unpopular and will never want to see such rivals gaining strength or legitimacy...better to keep them busy fighting USA...
Drones can be highly effective but perception is something that needs to be analyzed and steps taken to align the goals...
You have to understand the limitations that govern Pakistani actions...being an ally you should be able to appreciate some of our concerns...i am actually a little bit aware that some people in your command are aware of many concerns raised by Kayani, maybe this reassessment takes place soon, i certainly hope so.
We are only learning from our Yankee friends how to implement the policy of "Use and Abuse"
An Afghan criticizing Pakistan's policy when his fellow country men very conveniently come to Pakistan for shelter and enjoy their stay on the expense of the Pakistani people.
When i think of Pakistan there are 2 Pakistans. First its people and second its gov. People of Pakistan have my highest respect and regard, they are great people. gov of paksitan is nothing but a back stabber enemy in hidden. GoP let Afghans in because they were afraid of their own skin from the Soviets, secondly huge amount of money and arms coming to pakistan from anti Soviet block was certainly another boost for them.
Awesome
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Your own citizen was "randomly selected" right in front of my eyes. Till date we rip on him for the incident. He still tries to make excuses like you are doing right now.
I'm saying just go to terminal 4 fly in from overseas and check it out. On the far extreme right hand side you'll see Muslims of all kinds. Being let go one by one into a questioning and finger printing room on the far extreme left hand side.
Of course national profiling, or whatever, you're implementing your security - although more educated competent immigration cops are needed, trust me (I told the cop I was visiting old friends for Eid and the freakin immigration cop, didn't know what Eid was and why was it a relevant enough reason. Or she could be lying, either way bummed me out. Then shes like "That's not a good enough reason, give me a good reason why I should let you go"). At the end of the day it helps protect lives, I can live with it. I'm complaining against the duplicity not the checks. I totally understand a guy looking like me is probably more likely to do something nasty. That would kill me just the same. I may complain about the competence of the security, but not against the existence of the security checks. It's common sense.
We have just ripped a page from the American manual. You have immunity from prosecution, don't talk like an ignorant. You know the law, we have full rights to do an anal probe on any American suspected of committing any crime.
waraich66
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Your preception is totally wrong about zia regime , we(Pakistanis) and Afghans have same intrests in region , they are our brothers and remain and fought together against Russian and defeated them and their tatu and agents (Gen Dostm and Gen Fahim ).
waraich66
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All Green ,
S2 and other neo cons zoinists could never be our friends, their policy makers and think tanks have their intrests and greater game plan to weaken the all muslim states one by one , Pakistan is last state left having nukes and great army and great nation of 180 Million muslims united against any threat to Islam and Muslim Ummah.
S-2
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"Why not go for a formula whereby our common enemy will be targeted without any such perception?
I fail to understand the need for this divergence..."
So do I. America kills B. Mehsud. America attacks H. Mehsud.
Pakistan? Omar? Haqqani? Eight years and running.
"With credible evidence meriting serious timely action the SSG has been mobilized many times in past year...they have lost many brilliant officers and men in DECISIVE engagements and inflicted a lot of punishment upon the hardcore TTP...they are certainly not sitting on their behinds..."
I'm sorry but my definition of "decisive" means finalized, conclusive, finished. However busy and brave your troops have been, that's not yet the case that anything is finished-not with the TTP and certainly not with the Haqqani network, Omar's taliban, nor your own citizens like Maulvi Nazir and Hafez Gul Bahadur.
I don't attack the courage of your men. Never have nor ever will. American soldiers, however, are routinely slagged on this board by your peers. Without my voice, their honor would be virtually undefended here.
"we cannot roll back the military till either TTP are eliminated/surrender or their command and control is destroyed...only once they are no more able carry out their attacks will the military be pulled back."
That would be a shame to pull back then as with the TTP's defeat there shall be more to do, no? Haqqani beckons on the horizon...
...I hope.
"You deny completely with 100% confidence that there are Afghans in the ranks of Omar who are fighting USA because USA invaded Afghanistan and not because they love Osama?"
First, let's be clear that the only afghans fighting in Omar's ranks are pashtu. Second, the U.S. military has graded the levels of resistance and there are many not ideologically committed. Yet that doesn't speak one bit for the vast majority of pashtus NOT fighting in his ranks nor all the Hazara, tajiks, Uzbeks, and turkomen completely absent from his ranks yet VERY MUCH afghan.
Third, there are now forty plus other nations whom the taliban are also fighting and NONE of them are INVADERS. I'd hope that you wouldn't succumb to such rhetoric but, evidently, you're as vulnerable to their crap as the next guy.
Disappointing.
The latest ABC/BBC/ARD poll is out. Have you read it? The taliban poll the LOWEST among all combatants-even lower than foreign irhabists. This year question #17 equates to last year's question #18. Important questions those.
Both questions from last year and now read-
"Do you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose or strongly oppose each of the following groups?"
Somewhat or strong support for the taliban falls below 10%...again.
They've NEVER polled higher than 10% combined. Dead last among ISAF, America, NGOs, foreign irhabists, and themselves.
ABC/BBC/ARD Afghan Poll 2010
We are not occupiers, have a mandate that's more than legitimate, and have nothing but the best intentions for Afghanistan. The taliban have never stood for any election, refuse to participate in any held since 2001, and won't permit such if they again seize power.
The afghans have tasted their lash already and want no part of it yet forgive afghans if they presume that's exactly what Pakistan has in store for them-the same men your own society decisively rejected in SWAT.
"what is needed is a compromise to focus on terrorist elimination and integration of Taliban into a composite dialogue..."
Is that your intentions for the TTP as well? I'd have thought that you learned your lessons in SWAT. What's needed is for the taliban to disarm, swear allegiance to the afghan constitution and go home to their farms and families. This they have as an option NOW.
They have no constituency of note, not even among fellow pashtus. Not in FATA and not in Afghanistan. They certainly hold no constituency among Hazara, tajiks, uzbeks, and turkomen who comprise the absolute MAJORITY of afghans.
That's where you went so terribly wrong so long ago. In seeking to assuage and satisfy the lusts of your Pakistani pashtu, you intentionally alienated the rest tajiks, hazara, uzbeks and turkomen of that nation.
What's needed is for Gilani to get his azz over to Afghanistan and apologize to those people and begin making amends for foisting the taliban upon them. THAT is the key to competing with the Indians and the only LEGITIMATE recourse you have.
The Indians are in Afghanistan and will remain so long as AFGHANS wish. Want to neutralize them? Induce the Afghans by being a better ally to all of them via trade and diplomacy. At a minimum you will balance the Indians there while gaining Afghan support AND access into CAR.
An Indian presence in Afghanistan is beyond Pakistan. It is an AFGHAN choice. Best Pakistan start winning friends and influencing people in some manner other than at the point of a gun.
I hope you'll look at those polls and, perhaps, review again afghan demographics. Forty plus other nations have yet to see a hint of Indian intrigue in Afghanistan. How is that? We haven't bought off the Turks, for instance. NGOs? All those anti-American liberal do-gooders and not one peep from them. The global media lusting for good stories in Afghanistan? Yet nada.
The Indians are neither magically omnipotent nor fools. They know mankind is watching for a hint of real duplicity from them given your allegations. They've only the same number of embassies and consulates in the exact same cities as Pakistan. No more. They have no vast array of training camps and installations which stretch back decades unlike FATAville.
What the Indians DO have is a hell of a great head start in economic goodwill and diplomatic rapport. THAT is accepted arena of geo-political competition and one in which Pakistan, to date, has failed miserably.
Thanks.
I fail to understand the need for this divergence..."
So do I. America kills B. Mehsud. America attacks H. Mehsud.
Pakistan? Omar? Haqqani? Eight years and running.
"With credible evidence meriting serious timely action the SSG has been mobilized many times in past year...they have lost many brilliant officers and men in DECISIVE engagements and inflicted a lot of punishment upon the hardcore TTP...they are certainly not sitting on their behinds..."
I'm sorry but my definition of "decisive" means finalized, conclusive, finished. However busy and brave your troops have been, that's not yet the case that anything is finished-not with the TTP and certainly not with the Haqqani network, Omar's taliban, nor your own citizens like Maulvi Nazir and Hafez Gul Bahadur.
I don't attack the courage of your men. Never have nor ever will. American soldiers, however, are routinely slagged on this board by your peers. Without my voice, their honor would be virtually undefended here.
"we cannot roll back the military till either TTP are eliminated/surrender or their command and control is destroyed...only once they are no more able carry out their attacks will the military be pulled back."
That would be a shame to pull back then as with the TTP's defeat there shall be more to do, no? Haqqani beckons on the horizon...
...I hope.
"You deny completely with 100% confidence that there are Afghans in the ranks of Omar who are fighting USA because USA invaded Afghanistan and not because they love Osama?"
First, let's be clear that the only afghans fighting in Omar's ranks are pashtu. Second, the U.S. military has graded the levels of resistance and there are many not ideologically committed. Yet that doesn't speak one bit for the vast majority of pashtus NOT fighting in his ranks nor all the Hazara, tajiks, Uzbeks, and turkomen completely absent from his ranks yet VERY MUCH afghan.
Third, there are now forty plus other nations whom the taliban are also fighting and NONE of them are INVADERS. I'd hope that you wouldn't succumb to such rhetoric but, evidently, you're as vulnerable to their crap as the next guy.
Disappointing.
The latest ABC/BBC/ARD poll is out. Have you read it? The taliban poll the LOWEST among all combatants-even lower than foreign irhabists. This year question #17 equates to last year's question #18. Important questions those.
Both questions from last year and now read-
"Do you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose or strongly oppose each of the following groups?"
Somewhat or strong support for the taliban falls below 10%...again.
They've NEVER polled higher than 10% combined. Dead last among ISAF, America, NGOs, foreign irhabists, and themselves.
ABC/BBC/ARD Afghan Poll 2010
We are not occupiers, have a mandate that's more than legitimate, and have nothing but the best intentions for Afghanistan. The taliban have never stood for any election, refuse to participate in any held since 2001, and won't permit such if they again seize power.
The afghans have tasted their lash already and want no part of it yet forgive afghans if they presume that's exactly what Pakistan has in store for them-the same men your own society decisively rejected in SWAT.
"what is needed is a compromise to focus on terrorist elimination and integration of Taliban into a composite dialogue..."
Is that your intentions for the TTP as well? I'd have thought that you learned your lessons in SWAT. What's needed is for the taliban to disarm, swear allegiance to the afghan constitution and go home to their farms and families. This they have as an option NOW.
They have no constituency of note, not even among fellow pashtus. Not in FATA and not in Afghanistan. They certainly hold no constituency among Hazara, tajiks, uzbeks, and turkomen who comprise the absolute MAJORITY of afghans.
That's where you went so terribly wrong so long ago. In seeking to assuage and satisfy the lusts of your Pakistani pashtu, you intentionally alienated the rest tajiks, hazara, uzbeks and turkomen of that nation.
What's needed is for Gilani to get his azz over to Afghanistan and apologize to those people and begin making amends for foisting the taliban upon them. THAT is the key to competing with the Indians and the only LEGITIMATE recourse you have.
The Indians are in Afghanistan and will remain so long as AFGHANS wish. Want to neutralize them? Induce the Afghans by being a better ally to all of them via trade and diplomacy. At a minimum you will balance the Indians there while gaining Afghan support AND access into CAR.
An Indian presence in Afghanistan is beyond Pakistan. It is an AFGHAN choice. Best Pakistan start winning friends and influencing people in some manner other than at the point of a gun.
I hope you'll look at those polls and, perhaps, review again afghan demographics. Forty plus other nations have yet to see a hint of Indian intrigue in Afghanistan. How is that? We haven't bought off the Turks, for instance. NGOs? All those anti-American liberal do-gooders and not one peep from them. The global media lusting for good stories in Afghanistan? Yet nada.
The Indians are neither magically omnipotent nor fools. They know mankind is watching for a hint of real duplicity from them given your allegations. They've only the same number of embassies and consulates in the exact same cities as Pakistan. No more. They have no vast array of training camps and installations which stretch back decades unlike FATAville.
What the Indians DO have is a hell of a great head start in economic goodwill and diplomatic rapport. THAT is accepted arena of geo-political competition and one in which Pakistan, to date, has failed miserably.
Thanks.
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Get back to real world!! Absolute majority of Afghanistan have a negative idea about Pakistan. If we turn the clock back to the point of Soviet invastion, the Afghans would think twice before trusting pakistana again. You are also wrong that the 2 countries have similiar interests, go and talk positive about pakistan on the streets of Afghanistan and you'll see the reaction from ordinary people. You also need to update your information, that this bloody so called NA was fighting against the russians and Fahim was a low level commondar in that time(with the exception of Dostom who was pro gov that time)
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