UN : Pak's 'empty rhetoric' useless, Kashmir integral : India

[Rajesh Singh]

The Two nation theory still exists as long as Pakistan exists.
Let us do a thought experiment:

1. Pakistan Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan allows a referendum and give two choices: remain with Pakistan or join Bharat.

2. Bharat Kashmir allows a referendum and gives two choices: remain with Bharat or join Pakistan.

In your honest opinion what would be the result of experiment 1 and experiment 2? And more importantly WHY?

I am very very practical man, These is just unfair with Kashmiri (including PAK kashmiri and GB people) if you give only two options.

3 (option). Independent Jammu & Kashmir

And I am 200% sure, they will vote for independent Jammu & Kashmir and I will be happy also...

But, In real scenario... it's not possible, Not Pakistan will be agree and nor India will be agree.

Do you know, Pakistan was rejected UN resolution on kashmir when it was about to leave kashmir and allow indian minimum security force under UN? even India rejected the same way...
So, How could you think that it can be possible.

 

[A.A. Khan]

#KashmirBanegaPakistan

 

[Cookie Monster]

I am very very practical man, These is just unfair with Kashmiri (including PAK kashmiri and GB people) if you give only two options.

3 (option). Independent Jammu & Kashmir

And I am 200% sure, they will vote for independent Jammu & Kashmir and I will be happy also...

But, In real scenario... it's not possible, Not Pakistan will be agree and nor India will be agree.

Do you know, Pakistan was rejected UN resolution on kashmir when it was about to leave kashmir and allow indian minimum security force under UN? even India rejected the same way...
So, How could you think that it can be possible.

One one hand u r saying that u r a practical man...then u go on to propose a 3rd option of "independence" that u say neither India nor Pak would accept.

So why include a theoretical scenario that is deemed unviable in the real world?

Keep consistent with ur claim of being realistic and answer his question on realistic grounds.

 

[Rajesh Singh]

You seem like a person who is not a troll...normally I reply in kind to trolls who are only interested in displaying their lack of knowledge and hatred towards Pak...

So here it goes...despite what ur media shows u...Balochistan is not at all comparable to Kashmir. The scale at which ur media portrays that there is a separatist movement going on in Balochistan...it's simply not true.

Not too long ago there was a thread on PDF where Indian media was caught portraying some rally(or was it protest?...can't recall at the moment) in Pakistan(held for some other domestic political issue) as Balochi ppl's demand for independence.

I understand that Indians are hyped up about Balochistan ever since Modi brought it up...but whatever Modi and Indian media have been feeding its ppl about Balochistan is simply not true. I bet before Modi brought it up most die hard Modi fans(Indians) didn't even have a clue that Pakistan had a province named Balochistan.

What I don't understand is how every time Kashmir is brought up for India...Indians bring up Balochistan as some sort of an equivalent...almost as a tit for tat.

For the record Balochistan isn't a disputed territory unlike Kashmir...so that truly is an internal matter of Pakistan and India has no business meddling there. Just like how Pakistan doesn't bring up Nagaland or other fledgling separatist movements of India...neither should India. Then again I don't expect Modi to have any class and manners...I wouldn't expect him to respect Pakistan's internal matters(unlike Pakistan). Kashmir in contrast is a disputed territory between India/Pak/China...and talking about that and bringing it up on international forums is fair game...

In addition there is also no equivalency between IOK and Balochistan when it comes to human rights violations. Here too Indian media has played a big part in misleading its ppl. Since u wouldn't believe Pakistani sources just like how I wouldn't believe Indian sources...how about u look at the third party neutral sources?
Take a look at all the UN reports about rapes, mass graves, and other such violations by Indian armed forces in Kashmir spanning decades...and compare it with UN reports about human rights violations committed by Pak in Balochistan over the same time period...u will get ur answer.

Lastly I would recommend that u give Balochistan issue a rest...at least until u've read up on it like I recommended above. Also bcuz this thread is about Kashmir...so stick to topic.

 

[TMA]

I am very very practical man, These is just unfair with Kashmiri (including PAK kashmiri and GB people) if you give only two options.

3 (option). Independent Jammu & Kashmir

And I am 200% sure, they will vote for independent Jammu & Kashmir and I will be happy also...

But, In real scenario... it's not possible, Not Pakistan will be agree and nor India will be agree.

Do you know, Pakistan was rejected UN resolution on kashmir when it was about to leave kashmir and allow indian minimum security force under UN? even India rejected the same way...
So, How could you think that it can be possible.

So you do admit that Pakistan Kashmir would remain with Pakistan and Bharat Kashmir would join Pakistan.
Why is that? WHY? This is a question you have got to answer.



I agree if there is a third option for an independent Kashmir that is a likely winner and I personally would be agreeable with that. But I do not think the extremist PM nor the extremist Party in Bharat would accept an Independent Kashmir and you wanna know why....?
Bharat is less likely to accept an Independent Kashmir than Pakistan....

 

[graphican]

By calling a dog an elephant, it will never become an elephant. Kashmir never was, nor is, neither it will be "an integral" entity.

 

[Rajesh Singh]

One one hand u r saying that u r a practical man...then u go on to propose a 3rd option of "independence" that u say neither India nor Pak would accept.

So why include a theoretical scenario that is deemed unviable in the real world?

Keep consistent with ur claim of being realistic and answer his question on realistic grounds.

Let me very honest, simple way....

India doesn't want to lose territory and nor pakistan.
India will not give a single inch of kashmir and nor Pakistan
India will never ready for Independent J & K(Including PAK kashmir & GB) and nor Pakistan.
--------
Solution:
Option 1. Go for WAR..... who will win, take the entire J & K. But do you think that possible?
--------
Option 2. Time Pass - Sell dreams to our people and make money (which one our leaders are doing from many decades)
--------

Genuine Solution (As per me) : Make LOC as permanent border and give kashmiri people to special identity proof from both country so that they can travel to any place in J & K with very minimum security checks. They can do free trading between both part of kashmir.

Army should be withdraw from both side and only police to stay for maintaining law & order.

There can be add many things in this option that can serve faithfully for kashmiri people.
-------------
In the real world, There is a only one option. Make LOC as permanent border and both should stop interfering in internal matters.

So you do admit that Pakistan Kashmir would remain with Pakistan and Bharat Kashmir would join Pakistan.
Why is that? WHY? This is a question you have got to answer.
....

Sir, I said Independent Jammu & kashmir (Including PAK kashmir & GB)

 

[padamchen]

Let me very honest, simple way....

India doesn't want to lose territory and nor pakistan.
India will not give a single inch of kashmir and nor Pakistan
India will never ready for Independent J & K(Including PAK kashmir & GB) and nor Pakistan.
--------
Solution:
Option 1. Go for WAR..... who will win, take the entire J & K. But do you think that possible?
--------
Option 2. Time Pass - Sell dreams to our people and make money (which one our leaders are doing from many decades)
--------

Genuine Solution (As per me) : Make LOC as permanent border and give kashmiri people to special identity proof from both country so that they can travel to any place in J & K with very minimum security checks. They can do free trading between both part of kashmir.

Army should be withdraw from both side and only police to stay for maintaining law & order.

There can be add many things in this option that can serve faithfully for kashmiri people.
-------------
In real world, There is a only one option. Make LOC as permanent border and both should stop interfering in internal matters.

The Indian Army will NEVER withdraw from the valley. Take it in writing.

India will never allow free passage across the border. Take that in writing as well.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Rajesh Singh]

The Indian Army will NEVER withdraw from the valley. Take it in writing.

India will never allow free passage across the border. Take that in writing as well.

Cheers, Doc

Yes, I said too... in the real world, both countries are not going to withdraw army from Kashmir.

 

[padamchen]

Yes, I said too... in the real world, both countries are not going to withdraw army from Kashmir.

The idea of Kashmiris flitting freely one way and the other was a harebrained idea of MMS I think.

Cheers, Doc

 

[TMA]

Let me very honest, simple way....

India doesn't want to lose territory and nor pakistan.
India will not give a single inch of kashmir and nor Pakistan
India will never ready for Independent J & K(Including PAK kashmir & GB) and nor Pakistan.
--------
Solution:
Option 1. Go for WAR..... who will win, take the entire J & K. But do you think that possible?
--------
Option 2. Time Pass - Sell dreams to our people and make money (which one our leaders are doing from many decades)
--------

Genuine Solution (As per me) : Make LOC as permanent border and give kashmiri people to special identity proof from both country so that they can travel to any place in J & K with very minimum security checks. They can do free trading between both part of kashmir.

Army should be withdraw from both side and only police to stay for maintaining law & order.

There can be add many things in this option that can serve faithfully for kashmiri people.
-------------
In real world, There is a only one option. Make LOC as permanent border and both should stop interfering in internal matters.


Sir, I said Independent Jammu & kashmir (Including PAK kashmir & GB)

But with two options: Bharat or Pakistan, Pakistan is the choice, with three, an independent Kashmir wins but Bharat is less likely to accept this.

The question is WHY? WHY do Kashmiris prefer Pakistan to Bharat? Why is Bharat less likely to accept even an Independent Kashmir?
Why is there a half a million man army in Kashmir? WHY?

Is it because you cannot accept the fact that the Kashmiris were not represented by the Maharaja when he voted for Bharat? Can you not accept the fact that most Kashmiris have accepted Islam in the centuries bygone? Can you not accept the fact that geographically Kashmir is linked more to Pakistan than to Bharat?
WHY?




The longer this issue goes on for Bharat the harder it will be for her, hence the calls for making LOC an IB.
Neither Pakistan can beat Bharat in a (orthodox) war and neither can Bharat beat Pakistan due to nukes...

 

[Rajesh Singh]

The idea of Kashmiris flitting freely one way and the other was a harebrained idea of MMS I think.

Cheers, Doc

Europe and many countries have good example for that.....

I am saying that only J & K, in the other state's. Only Indian Kashmiri will allow to move freely in Indian state's and for Pakistani kashmir, will be required a normal VISA. (Vice versa)

They have to go from a security checks between J&K and indian state's

But I know, This is a wishful thinking

But with two options: Bharat or Pakistan, Pakistan is the choice, with three, an independent Kashmir wins but Bharat is less likely to accept this.

The question is WHY? WHY do Kashmiris prefer Pakistan to Bharat? Why is Bharat less likely to accept even an Independent Kashmir?
Why is there a half a million man army in Kashmir? WHY?

Is it because you cannot accept the fact that the Kashmiris were not represented by the Maharaja when he voted for Bharat? Can you not accept the fact that most Kashmiris have accepted Islam in the centuries bygone? Can you not accept the fact that geographically Kashmir is linked more to Pakistan than to Bharat?
WHY?




The longer this issue goes on for Bharat the harder it will be for her, hence the calls for making LOC an IB.
Neither Pakistan can beat Bharat in a (orthodox) war and neither can Bharat beat Pakistan due to nukes...

If you think that All kashmiri do prefer to Pakistan over India Then you are mistaking. I know, you will not accept this.. because you heard from childhood in Pakistan.... Anyday, they will go for free country

As I already said, both country will never accept J&K as independent country. No one want to lose a single inch Kashmir...

In the real world, I accept the LOC as permanent border but my country people will gonna not agree with me.
That's a also true, if i am saying I support for LOC as permanent border. It doesn't meant that we are in under presser.

I am saying because I believed this is only a possible solution and rest are dreams

 

[TMA]

Europe and many countries have good example for that.....

I am saying that only J & K, in the other state's. Only Indian Kashmiri will allow to move freely in Indian state's and for Pakistani kashmir, will be required a normal VISA. (Vice versa)

They have to go from a security checks between J&K and indian state's

But I know, This is a wishful thinking



If you think that All kashmiri do prefer to Pakistan over India Then you are mistaking. I know, you will not accept this.. because you heard from childhood in Pakistan.... Anyday, they will go for free country

As I already said, both country will never accept J&K as independent country. No one want to lose a single inch Kashmir...

In the real world, I accept the LOC as permanent border but my country people will gonna not agree with me.
That's a also true, if i am saying I support for LOC as permanent border. It doesn't meant that we are in under presser.

I am saying because I believed this is only a possible solution and rest are dreams

I never said ALL.
Why do the majority of Kashmiris....then. Is that better?
Why is Bharat less likely to accept an Independent Kashmir than Pakistan?
WHY? You have got to answer this? Why do most Kashmiris prefer Pakistan to Bharat?
What are the reasons??

 

[BHarwana]

If you think that All kashmiri do prefer to Pakistan over India Then you are mistaking. I know, you will not accept this.. because you heard from childhood in Pakistan.... Anyday, they will go for free country

As I already said, both country will never accept J&K as independent country. No one want to lose a single inch Kashmir...

In the real world, I accept the LOC as permanent border but my country people will gonna not agree with me.
That's a also true, if i am saying I support for LOC as permanent border. It doesn't meant that we are in under presser.

I am saying because I believed this is only a possible solution and rest are dreams

My question to you why should Pakistan accept LOC as permanent border what is here for Pakistan to gain. Show me here that Pakistan gains this from making LOC permanent.

???

 

[Cookie Monster]

Let me very honest, simple way....

India doesn't want to lose territory and nor pakistan.
India will not give a single inch of kashmir and nor Pakistan
India will never ready for Independent J & K(Including PAK kashmir & GB) and nor Pakistan.
--------
Solution:
Option 1. Go for WAR..... who will win, take the entire J & K. But do you think that possible?
--------
Option 2. Time Pass - Sell dreams to our people and make money (which one our leaders are doing from many decades)
--------

Genuine Solution (As per me) : Make LOC as permanent border and give kashmiri people to special identity proof from both country so that they can travel to any place in J & K with very minimum security checks. They can do free trading between both part of kashmir.

Army should be withdraw from both side and only police to stay for maintaining law & order.

There can be add many things in this option that can serve faithfully for kashmiri people.
-------------
In the real world, There is a only one option. Make LOC as permanent border and both should stop interfering in internal matters.

Except this solution u r talking about hasn't worked out in the entire existence of India/Pak. Throughout all this time...all the ups and downs in the economies, political environment, wars(between the two)...LOC has more or less remained the same ever since Kashmir was split up between the two. If that solution was realistically an option it would've happened by now and yet it hasn't happened.

The reason why it hasn't happened is bcuz of ego...

India doesn't want to let go of its claim on Pak's Kashmir bcuz India doesn't wanna look weak by just giving up territory that it claims it's own. Moreover India considers itself strong...strong enough that it holds out hope that it can someday snatch away that Kashmir from Pak by force.

Pakistan on the other hand doesn't want to let go of its claim on Indian Kashmir bcuz that would also make Pakistan look weak. It would make it look like that Pak bowed down to India and has accepted Indian hegemony just like how other smaller countries in the region do like Bhutan/Sri Lanka/etc. It would also be considered a strategic blunder bcuz of the water issue since the rivers that flow in Pak originate in IOK and Pakistan stands to gain territory in the event of a neutral plebiscite due to a large Muslim population of IOK(which are mostly either pro Pak or pro independence...due to the behavior of Indian armed forces like shooting pellet guns).

So u see even though LOC has more or less existed as sort of an international border between India/Pak...neither would be willing to accept it as an official border for reasons described above.

The only reason which may interest both India/Pak is the following...

Money and Safety/Security(from each other and a possible nuclear war)

With this in mind a solution can be worked out...

The Kashmir issue has caused both nations to spend billions of dollars throughout their existence to continue to build up/maintain their offensive/defensive capacity against each other. If Kashmir issue is resolved then there would hardly be a reason to fight. For the last 70 years the money spent by both(India/Pak) on defense expenditures and waging wars is probably more than the total value of Kashmir in terms of land/resources/man power. So if they could achieve a solution to this...they can plug a hole of billions of dollars spent in defense expenditures.

Secondly the safety part...for Pak its obvious...it faces a foe that has more manpower/resources/budget/etc. If that front can be eliminated(by achieving peace), it would be highly desirable.
For India though it enjoys conventional superiority vis a vis Pak, it still has to constantly worry about two fronts. Having enemies to fight on two fronts is a strategic nightmare. Throughout history fighting wars has proven a disaster for the party engaged in a two front war. So if India could achieve peace with Pak...it would be(or rather "should be") highly desirable for India if it ever hopes to challenge China.
Last but not least...it would reduce if not outright eliminate the threat of a nuclear war between the two.

So keeping in mind the above two driving factors...now a realistic solution must be figured out...more on that later...since I gtg right now
Consider this PART 1.