Two Opposing Terms: Islamic and Republic

[Panther 57]

3) Islam is an anti-democratic religion because Islamic fundamentalism is incompatible with the pluralism that is necessary for a democratic state. Muslim societies (such as many of the Arab or Asian states, for example Saudi Arabia) are authoritarian and consequently violently repressive. Authoritarianism is the natural consequence of the legal and doctrinal rigidity which makes a political culture of compromise impossible. Shari’a law is viewed as perfect and divine. Consequently, laws are best made through theocratic interpretation rather than democratic debate. This lends to systems structured around institutions such as the Faqih and the role of the clergy. Shari’a does not require separate legislatively defined provisions.

In a way right as The Divine has always selected a person as prophet and not elected one, thus it would be correct to say that it is Islam is a non-democratic religion. However, there is no concept of Kingship also. Holy Prophet PBUH, when communicating with rulers and kings of other states, has always used words "Mohammed Abdullah" or "Mohammed Rasul Allah" He never used the term Mohammed King of Arabia.

After him a system which was in line with democratic lines was introduced. Though contested by some, yet it was a bridge between both Islamic requirements and democracy. Iran is following same principle to some extent. What happened later is an example of similar effort which is being practiced in today's politics.

I would agree that laws are best crafted against institutionalised philosophies, rather then democratic debates. Democratic debates will bring in results like gay marriages and life time benefits for members of legislative assemblies. (Two extreme examples.) Though, I don't agree to this sort of democratic system where members of legislative assemblies caste their votes on the basis of their "Quids" whims rather then their conscious.

However, I would tend to disagree with you that clergy has any role to play in Islam. It is the only religion of world which does not have concept of clergy. It is obligatory on every individual to know the tenets of Islam.

World had many economic systems like communism, socialism, capitalism, etc. All these failed in short span of time. Thus, proved that these systems are ineffective and defective. Islam is a code of conduct, which defines socio-economic norms. A prudent study into this system indicates that it is a well balanced blend of all the types of economic systems.

Today , 29 of the Muslim Countries around the globe are classified as "Authoritarian Regime" , 17 as "Hybrid Regimes" and only 3 (Indonesia , Malaysia and Senegal) as "Flawed Democracy" .. 25 of the muslim countries are officialy "Secular State" , still 40 of the muslim countries rank b/w 100-165 on the democracy Index Rank ...
This poor performance of Muslim countries on democracy index results from the basic fact that "Islam & democracy are incompatible"

These failures cannot declare Islam and democracy as incompatible. It is the flawed practices of the rulers, may it be kings or politicians. Because both considered themselves above the law and practiced against basic principles of Islam. Therefore, blaming Islam will be highly unfair.

Either we can be a "Socialist Islamic Theocracy"

Very rightly said. Islam is a Republican socio-communo-capitalistic economic system, which demarcates boundaries for each system and delineates subtle integration of these.

 

[Bilal.]

Oh bhai saib

Leader bhai cannot reinvent definition.

He has to say if he is following Plato, or thomas jefferson or montesque.

We cannot say that leader can redefine theory of relativity.

That's Einstein's not yours not mine and definitely not leaders.

I hope you understand.




==========================


And people who will teach TTP lesson in "humanity" are the ones who believe in Pakistani republic and not some Islamist mumbo jumbo Khalifa on earth Islamist Emirate of Afghanistan or somalia etc.

Thank you

Bhai, it does not matter, if "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" qualifies even one definition it's enough.

And why someone who believes in the right teachings of Islam cannot teach humanity to ttp and tell them that blowing up innocent people is not cool with Islam?

 

[FaujHistorian]

In a way right as The Divine has always selected a person as prophet and not elected one, thus it would be correct to say that it is Islam is a non-democratic religion. However, there is no concept of Kingship also. Holy Prophet PBUH, when communicating with rulers and kings of other states, has always used words "Mohammed Abdullah" or "Mohammed Rasul Allah" He never used the term Mohammed King of Arabia.

After him a system which was in line with democratic lines was introduced. Though contested by some, yet it was a bridge between both Islamic requirements and democracy. Iran is following same principle to some extent. What happened later is an example of similar effort which is being practiced in today's politics.

I would agree that laws are best crafted against institutionalised philosophies, rather then democratic debates. Democratic debates will bring in results like gay marriages and life time benefits for members of legislative assemblies. (Two extreme examples.) Though, I don't agree to this sort of democratic system where members of legislative assemblies caste their votes on the basis of their "Quids" whims rather then their conscious.

However, I would tend to disagree with you that clergy has any role to play in Islam. It is the only religion of world which does not have concept of clergy. It is obligatory on every individual to know the tenets of Islam.

World had many economic systems like communism, socialism, capitalism, etc. All these failed in short span of time. Thus, proved that these systems are ineffective and defective. Islam is a code of conduct, which defines socio-economic norms. A prudent study into this system indicates that it is a well balanced blend of all the types of economic systems.



These failures cannot declare Islam and democracy as incompatible. It is the flawed practices of the rulers, may it be kings or politicians. Because both considered themselves above the law and practiced against basic principles of Islam. Therefore, blaming Islam will be highly unfair.



Very rightly said. Islam is a Republican socio-communo-capitalistic economic system, which demarcates boundaries for each system and delineates subtle integration of these.

Panther bhai

This is precisely the confusion being spread by Pakistani intellectuals.

And you with your good heart ended up adding to the same pile of confusion (to say the least), instead of challenging the status quo.


If you argue against @Azlan Haider that "These failures cannot declare Islam and democracy as incompatible. "

is saying "health failures in 3rd world cannot declare that unfiltered water from animal pond and good health as incompatible".

When the results are there from present
when the results are there from the past

When we know Islamist theocratic rule is responsible for Khalifa Rashideen killing each other or conspiring to kill each other.

When we know that Abu Bakr was not elected from a people' representative parliament but instead by tribal pressure of Umer

When we know that Abu Bakr, Umer, Usman or Ali (All Raziall Unhu) were simply Islmist kings and not putting their rules and edicts after a year long debate in a parliament.

Then your argument falls down like a house of cards.

Thank you.



p.s It is laughable to say Ayatullahs in Iran are democratic. They are not. They are making a joke out of a Western Concepts and so many Pakistanis are saying wah wah wah kiy Shair kaha hai, kiya fumaya hai. If Ayatulluahs were poets, I'd go with your praise, but they are forking a country day and night and you bring their example to support your argument. So sad.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Bhai, it does not matter, if "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" qualifies even one definition it's enough.

That's just a cop out.

.

And why someone who believes in the right teachings of Islam cannot teach humanity to ttp and tell them that blowing up innocent people is not cool with Islam?

If you sincerely believe in what you just said, you would put at least one person's name who believes in the right teachings of Islam and goes over for teaching humanity to ttp.

Just one forking person please.

If you can produce one, there will not be a need for any lengthy negotiations and no army action.

So please hurry up

Thank you thank you in advance.

 

[Slav Defence]

Perhaps.

However we should also allow terms like

-- Honest Thief
-- Kind murderer
-- uneducated professor

and the list goes on.


And if someone points to the dichotomy,

We in Pakistan can simply say

Honest for West, Thief for Pakistan
Kind for West, Murderer for Pakistan
Uneducated for the West, professor for Pakistan.


You know I am not trying to start a flame war. Just pointing out the danger of combining two antonyms, or two exact opposite adjectives for the same noun.

Peace

I am astonished over your expression of disgust!
Ofcourse the very two 'antonyms' can be assigned together,when every thing in Pakistan is assigned with reciprocrative concepts!
For example:
The judiciary sector consists of all 'chor dakus'
When sincere individual rots inside prision,while 'most wanted' moron is promoted to important seat.
When illiterate enjoys high salary jobs due to 'per-chee',my dear bro...while double PHDs are put to dust!!
This is Pakistan historian...'Islamic republic of Pakistan where lies no 'Islam' but extremism and hatered,you will find tyrannical lobby system in the name of democracy in here!!
This is indeed Pakistan...ring ring,wake up!!

 

[freelancer93]

Actually every villager in Sindh, Balochistan , Punjab and KPK are together living in same country and calling themselves Pakistanis because of that 'mumbo jumbo' u used there.. 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan'

 

[Jf Thunder]

so you think it should be Islamic Of Pakistan?

 

[Bilal.]

That's just a cop out.

I think we should not act as the TTP of republicanism rigid and following letter and not spirit...

If you sincerely believe in what you just said, you would put at least one person's name who believes in the right teachings of Islam and goes over for teaching humanity to ttp.

Just one forking person please.

If you can produce one, there will not be a need for any lengthy negotiations and no army action.

So please hurry up

Thank you thank you in advance.

Tons of ulema have decreed against the acts of TTP but we have not been able to integrate it into our information and psychological warfare strategy as successfully as the Saudis have done it. We can take a leaf out of their counterterrorism strategy.

 

[qamar1990]

Perhaps.

However we should also allow terms like

-- Honest Thief
-- Kind murderer
-- uneducated professor

and the list goes on.


And if someone points to the dichotomy,

We in Pakistan can simply say

Honest for West, Thief for Pakistan
Kind for West, Murderer for Pakistan
Uneducated for the West, professor for Pakistan.


You know I am not trying to start a flame war. Just pointing out the danger of combining two antonyms, or two exact opposite adjectives for the same noun.

Peace

so lets just take out the republic part and call it islamic pakistan.

 

[RescueRanger]

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”

Stop focusing on the semantics and times gone by, clear your heads and focus on the future of your motherland, for your children and their children -children.

-----
His name was Nanji Jafar. He came in, sat in the rocking-chair and said that, as far as he knew, he was in his eighties. Though he had been at school with Jinnah, all he could recall was, “I played marbles with him in the street…” When I asked, “Can you remember anything he said to you?” he looked from beneath his thick brows and repeated, “I played marbles in the street with him.”



I asked him to close his eyes and to see, once more, the coloured glass marbles in the dust. Nanji Jafar closed his eyes and deeper into his memory: then he told his only anecdote of Jinnah’s boyhood. One morning, when Nanji Jafar was playing in the street, Jinnah, then aged about fourteen, came up to him and said, “Don’t play marbles in the dust; it spoils your clothes and dirties your hands. We must stand up and play cricket.”



The boys in Newnham Road were obedient: they gave up playing marbles and allowed Jinnah to lead them from the dusty street to a bright field where he brought his bat and stumps for them to use. When he sailed for England at the age of sixteen, he gave Nanji Jafar his bat and said, “You will go on teaching the boys to play cricket while I am away.”



All Jinnah’s story is in the boyhood dictum – “Stand up from the dust so that your clothes are unspoiled and your hands clean for the tasks that fall to them….

 

[FaujHistorian]

so you think it should be Islamic Of Pakistan?

That's really what Mullahs want. Islamist Emirates of Pakistan.

Why you think Tehreke Terrorist Paksitan (TTP) is forking the rest of the country.

This is how they want to establish Islamist Emirates.

But that's besides the point.

We are discussing the idea of Republic so that we may have hope for our future, for our beautiful country.

We already know what will be like a hell if we allow to turn our country into Islamist Emirate of Afghanistan, Islamist Emirate of Somalia, or other tribal junnats like Sierra Leon and Congo.

So please add your views about Republic of Pakistan.

Thank you.

.

Tons of ulema have decreed against the acts of TTP but we have not been able to integrate it into our information and psychological warfare strategy as successfully as the Saudis have done it. We can take a leaf out of their counterterrorism strategy.

Look our Mohalla mosque is run by a Mullah who is obedient and pliant. Why because our family makes sure that mosque is well funded.

We have forbidden him to shout from the minarette,

or beg for chanda

or talk politics.

Yes there are many Mohallah molvies who will give such fatwa


But the mardood Mullahs like Munawwar of Jahliyya fil Islam (JI) are the cause and our educated Islamist elite are the fuel that allows TTP to continue doing their dastardly acts.


So please do not say that bunch of Ullu-Ma can go against TTP.

they cannot, even if they wanted to. But in the hearts of heart of this Ullu-Ma, they support militant uprising so that Islamism can prevail.


Thank you.

 

[freelancer93]

That's really what Mullahs want. Islamist Emirates of Pakistan.

Why you think Tehreke Terrorist Paksitan (TTP) is forking the rest of the country.

This is how they want to establish Islamist Emirates.

But that's besides the point.

We are discussing the idea of Republic so that we may have hope for our future, for our beautiful country.

We already know what will be like a hell if we allow to turn our country into Islamist Emirate of Afghanistan, Islamist Emirate of Somalia, or other tribal junnats like Sierra Leon and Congo.

So please add your views about Republic of Pakistan.

Thank you.

There is nothing to 'add' about it, or even to minus anything out of it. It's complete in its own way.
If you have not read it clearly in schools or college then please try to read it again.

It's ' Islamic republic of Pakistan' all these Islamic Pakistan or Islamic Emirati whatever has been made by you not the other way around.

Try to keep your facts straight.

Peace out .

 

[FaujHistorian]

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”

Stop focusing on the semantics and times gone by, clear your heads and focus on the future of your motherland, for your children and their children -children.

-----
His name was Nanji Jafar. He came in, sat in the rocking-chair and said that, as far as he knew, he was in his eighties. Though he had been at school with Jinnah, all he could recall was, “I played marbles with him in the street…” When I asked, “Can you remember anything he said to you?” he looked from beneath his thick brows and repeated, “I played marbles in the street with him.”



I asked him to close his eyes and to see, once more, the coloured glass marbles in the dust. Nanji Jafar closed his eyes and deeper into his memory: then he told his only anecdote of Jinnah’s boyhood. One morning, when Nanji Jafar was playing in the street, Jinnah, then aged about fourteen, came up to him and said, “Don’t play marbles in the dust; it spoils your clothes and dirties your hands. We must stand up and play cricket.”



The boys in Newnham Road were obedient: they gave up playing marbles and allowed Jinnah to lead them from the dusty street to a bright field where he brought his bat and stumps for them to use. When he sailed for England at the age of sixteen, he gave Nanji Jafar his bat and said, “You will go on teaching the boys to play cricket while I am away.”



All Jinnah’s story is in the boyhood dictum – “Stand up from the dust so that your clothes are unspoiled and your hands clean for the tasks that fall to them….

Jinnah kept the Islamism 1000 feet away from him

This is why

most of the big name Ullu-Ma like madar pidar Azad mullah Azad, or murdoodi Mullah modoodi all were against Pakistan and called Jinnah names,

not only that

these Ullu-Mas were Congreshite leaders and supporters.

Nehru writes in his biography

how madar pidar Azad mullah Azad would go to him to get bags of money.

Can you imagine this?

Can you?

These champions of Islam, these so called Ulemas, throwing $hit on Jinnah while taking bags of money from Nehru?

Doesn't it make you feel angry? or even more?


Please read history and you will see how Islamist almost murdered Jinnah

And

how Islamism is murdering Jinnah's country aka Pakistan.


Thank you.

There is nothing to 'add' about it, or even to minus anything out of it. It's complete in its own way.
If you have not read it clearly in schools or college then please try to read it again.

It's ' Islamic republic of Pakistan' all these Islamic Pakistan or Islamic Emirati whatever has been made by you not the other way around.

Try to keep your facts straight.

Peace out .

Please read the history and definition of Republic starting from Plato.

Then come back and post your views.

Right now your post shows you have no idea what you are talking about.


Thank you.

 

[RescueRanger]

Please read history and you will see how Islamist almost murdered Jinnah

You act as if I don't own a book at all? Calm down brother, it is one thing to be ardent in your cause and argument, it is quite another to use "read history" as a rebuttal to someone who is merely trying to add credence to your logic.

You judge me as if I were a Detractor, do calm down and compose yourself friend.

 

[FaujHistorian]

You act as if I don't own a book at all? Calm down brother, it is one thing to be ardent in your cause and argument, it is quite another to use "read history" as a rebuttal to someone who is merely trying to add credence to your logic.

You judge me as if I were a Detractor, do calm down and compose yourself friend.

nothing personal bro

I thank your posts all the time

That comment is for those who have not studied.

Thank you.