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Turks, do most Muslims practice Islam?

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Dude, seriously, if you are considering the accusation of Ataturk by being a British spy is just a critique, then you are even worse than i thought.

I didn't say Kamal was a british spy. I was refering to other critques about the early years of Turkey. There were more than 3 articles in that thread, I wasn't talking about the first one. And I don't really care what you think about me, since we never agreed in a single post.
 
I didn't say Kamal was a british spy. I was refering to other critques about the early years of Turkey. There were more than 3 articles in that thread, I wasn't talking about the first one. And I don't really care what you think about me, since we never agreed in a single post.
If it was true you would be ignoring him, as i ignore raptor and the others i think not worthy of my attention. And if we are talking to each other we might aswell seek a productive outcome.
 
*
Jbond.


Every society has divides - The only differance is how they resolve them, by blowing each other up or talking and finding a
equilibrium.

Turkey - Islam and the Muslim World.

Let me begin this by saying I have always been fascinated by Turkey. From it's unique history as the fulcrum of the Muslim world to Ataturk and it's unique geography, sat there next to the glorious Mediterranean Sea between east and west. I have been on holiday to Turkey and sure enough I was not let down by the people or the country.

However Turkey is more important than just it's beaches and the Mediterranean. Turkey occupies a pivotal role in Islamic world in more ways than one. Islamic world has faced a crisis since at least the late Renaissance period and the European onslaught.

As Europe enjoyed the fruits of reason and science it spread it's wings into Muslim lands. With their new found industrial capacity they pushed into and enslaved Muslim countries. By early 20th century almost every Muslim country was under European domination. From Muslim Kazaks to Muslim Tatars [Russian] to Muslim Malays to Arab countries [ English, French ] they had become slaves to imperial Europe.

Only Ottoman Turkey, Iran and Afghanistan remained 'free' - Although in the case of latter I use the tag 'free' in a very loose way. The Islamic world was split into clear two sub sets. One that was free and fought against the European domination and those that threw up their backsides into the air and heads into the ground. With deep sense of regret I admit I come from the latter group.

This divide in the Islamic world - Between enslaved and free would have serious implications as to how European domination would be countered at the philosophical level. I must stress here that I am looking at this subject at the macro level and there were and are minor exceptions to the rule.

In the enslave camp they looked at their slavemasters [Europeans] with disgust even while they licked their boots. This would have tragic consequences because in their disgust they hated everything or anything connected to their European slavemasters. Science was looked at as European curse. In fact anything remotely connected by to their slavemasters was considered repulsive.

This slave period engendered a inferiority complex which was assuaged by becoming insular and looking back to the glorious past. This led to taking elemants of fossilized Islam gaining ground. The ignorent mullah become the saviour. The mullah preached hatred of everything European and anything connected with their civilization. Reactionery Islamic movements like Wahabism or political movements like Muslim Brotherhood or Maulana Maudoodi and the Deoband in South Asia movement represent this primitive reaction.

These movements were the bastard children of European slavery. They are nothing but a form vulgar intellectuel vendetta against their slavemasters, the Europeans. Those who today who are infected with this disease are the ones who have a very simple binary outlook on life. Are you Muslim? Do you pray five times a day? Do you fast? Do you have a beard? Ritualism thrives at the expense of substance. Saudia Arabia is the nursey and the chief marketeer of this curse tagged as Wahabism/Salafism and Pakistan is a terminal patient of this disease.

On the other camp were those countries which stood their ground to the Europeans. Iran, Afghanistan were only partly successful because although not phsically occupied they were subject to european pressure, in particular the Afghans who had little real independance. The star was Turkey [ which is why I find it fascinating ] because not only did it stand up to Europe but managed to under Ataturk to devastate European attempts to enslave Turkey. The defining moment of Turkish dominance over European attempts was the fall of Izmir in 1922 when the Western supported Greeks were destroyed into oblivion.

Great Fire of Smyrna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So in Turkey Europe was defeated. Science, democracy, liberalism, rationality, reason, deductive logic, modern apparel or anything usefull that Europe had was not seen as curse. So it was adopted in Turkey. Roman characters were adopted for Turkish. Why not? Roman characters are easier to use in the modern world. A Arabic keyboard is notorously difficult to use. Which is why my Turkish friends are are able to write in Turkish on in this 'Pakistani Defence' but ask the Pakistani's how difficult it is to write Urdu here. Urdu is written in these forums but it uses Roman characters.

If I was to suggest to fellow Pakistani's to do what the Turks did and ditch Arabic script and adopt Roman [ which they do when they type Urdu in these forums ] I would be castrated. The reason is because Roman characters are connected with our slavemasters so it is a definite 'no, no'. This explains why the Turks are so laid back about these things.

The tragedy of the uber Islamists is that they want to impose what in fact is feeling and connect to a higher spirituel plane. You can't impose this spirit because it is feeling , a thought and frame of mind. All you can do is impose on the external features of Islam that are visible to human beings like beard, the Hijab/Burka, act of worship etc. As you know it is possible to do all those things yet a a animal. If it is imposed than it is just a act to fool others and is breeds hypocrisy. It only fools people for Allah can still see the dirty soul of such people.

In conclusion Turkey represents the progressive future, a model for Muslims to move foward yet retain their Muslim heritage. If Turkey succeeds it proves that it possible to be Muslim and modern. So I say to Turks from both sides of the spectrum, Zukernain to TurAr you guys hold the future in your hands.

There is always the Saudi example fuelled with petrodollars full hypocrisy. This is the Islam of beards, chopping hands, enslaving women and than nipping over for relief to Monte Carlo or Las Vegas or other Sin Cities to indulge in debauchery and hedonism. Let us see which side prevails in the Islamic world.

One thought was born in the bowels success and triumph [ Modern Turkey ] - The other was born in defeat and the crucible of slavery [ Salafi /Deobandi / Muslim Brotherhood ]

I know which one I hope wins.

And to answer the question posed by the thread - It depends how you gauge 'practice of Islam'. Is it the tangibles [ beards, Hijabs etc ] or the essence which intangible and can only really be measured by Allah. Perhaps we should leave this question to the hereafter and concentrate on our own salvation.

Please excuse me for any speling or grammar mistakes, post is to long for me to correct. I hope the import of what I say is understood.

***
Just as a reflection of my theory have a look at the next UN General Assembly Heads of State meeting. Leaders of diverse countries like Russia, Chile, Germany Japan, both Koreas, China, Turkey, Thailand even Iran will be dressed in the modern suite.

Then watch how ex European colonies who all were slaves of Europe in the past walk in with a swagger, some African leader from some third rate starved countries with his hidous 'African' dress, then the Saudi with his [ don't know what they call it ] then the Pakistani with his Sherwani, Shalwar and Kameez.

If the proud Japanese can change from their Kimona to modern suite what gives with these third rate ex slaves from adopting modern dress? Because they connect that with their slavemaster.
 
*
Jbond.


Every society has divides - The only differance is how they resolve them, by blowing each other up or talking and finding a
equilibrium.

That's an excellent point you have made and I can not agree more with you that Turkey is taking a path of talking and finding an equilibrium.. That's excellent as blowing one up does not help anyone. I think Turkey should take a lead and show the way of dialogue to other Muslim countries.
 
Atanz and Abu Zülfikar

... i hope you would like to write your thoughts about islam and secularism.

---*-----


to the ones who think they are the owner of islam, who think they can judge who is religous or not, who mark people with some words and try to seem them as the enemy of islam. you are doing the worst damage ever possible to islam and muslims in the eyes of pepole who are not muslims but someday would like to be. therefore, there is a ''good place'' in the hell waiting for you.


to the ones who give those people the chance to seem them the owner of the islam, who let those people show anything like secularism as something against the islam and let those people use islam as tool in their sick-minded plans.

i did post an article here in order to see what muslims in other part of the world think about it, because there could be common sense among us, otherwise other sick-minded people continue using islam in their plans; i would like to give you an example from my country turkey; Mr. Tayyip Erdoğan and others like Abdullah Gül was the students of Necmettin ERBAKAN who was fundamentalist; they did criticize the west and usa in any thing that relates to islamic world, in turkey they did criticize secularism by showing it as equal to the last true religion in the world; they did criticize any thing in turkey that is brought up by the reforms of Atatürk; even they did call Atatürk with many insulting names, nearly they did condemn Atatürk for saving the country from the enemies, and also from the people that are the role models of Erbakan, Gül and Erdoğan... However, the turkish pm Mr. Erdoğan did visit Egypt after the spring and did deliver that ''but I am the prime minister of a secular state and I say, ‘I hope there will be a secular state in Egypt.’ ; however he is still in confusion about that, because he also added that '' I am a non-secular Muslim''. But untill those statments, in turkey we for years lived through a middle age discussion; that debate did cost many things in social life,education, economics etc. in turkey; because they did use islam in their plans, and they exploited the faith of people and sacrificed it for their plans.

there are other muslim-dominated countries, and i , as a muslim, do not want to see such people and their damages to those countries; because, as i said, it will cost the future of those countries, it will damage the social life, education, economics etc in those countries just like today it does; so please read the article i posted and let us know your thoughts in here, otherwise those sick-minded people continure sacrifising the future of you countires, and also showing the islam in the worst ways to people who someday would like to understand it.

Regards.
 
No its not. Islam in Turkey is WAY more influential as compared with Islam in Iran.
LOL. You dont have a clue what u are talking about. Iran always was much more religious.

Turks chose an Islamic party to rule them.
AKP is Islamic about as Republicans in US are Christian.

Eastern Turkey is pretty much "conservative" as compared to secular Izmir etc ...Correct me if I am wrong...
Izmir is indeed most secular. But North East Turkey is pretty secular too. South East is most religious.
 
@500 may i ask what the hell are you doing in here? why would you give a crap if Turks practice Islam or not? Just curious.
 
LOL. You dont have a clue what u are talking about. Iran always was much more religious.


AKP is Islamic about as Republicans in US are Christian.


Izmir is indeed most secular. But North East Turkey is pretty secular too. South East is most religious.

Iran is not a very religious country dude . Iranians have a theocratic government but the population is generally not all that religious, particularly the young . At least that is what one hears from various sources including Iranian .

Turkey is a little more religious than Iran although lesser than Arab countries .
 
Like Nepal and Sri Lanka?

And these "Islamists" won't come hard on India unless India does some stupidity. Indian civilization is well-contained by Islam , Mashallah. You can't spread physically into the 'lost territory' of yours ..:azn: Some fools try to argue that Bollywood will "de-Islamsize" Muslims surrounding India...This is a laughable imagination of those people because ;

1-Bollywood doesn't effect Islam directly. Yeah some people might miss their daily prayers due to some bollywood movie but does that mean "de-Islamization" in any way?

2-Bollywood is itself dominated by Indian Muslims (Shahrukh Khan , Salman Khan , Amir Khan , Farhan Akhtar , Javed Akhtar , A.R. Rahman , Imran Khan , Imran Hashmi etcetc )

3-Bollywood doesn't even have a very solid penetration among Muslims. Many people just see films for time-pass boss..

It effects Muslims directly I believe. Psyops.
 
^

Why are you so aggressive today? :undecided:
Bunch of arabian bedouins backstabbed my nation during WWI and now their descendants dont even feel sorry for that and now my countrymen won't back me up. Which is making me angry. Which is why im a bit more aggressive today. Thanks for asking.

and @nick_indian I'm under the impression that everyone around us are more religious than we are. Everyone's giving lectures about islam I on the other hand want to talk about military stuff. Awkward isn't it? Someone want to talk about military in a "military" forum :)
 
But one thing is a fact. If it comes up to Djihaad, Turks will fight without doubt for Allah and the country, they are not affraid to die.

We see this leak unfortunally in the most muslim countries now.
 
Atanz and Abu Zülfikar

... i hope you would like to write your thoughts about islam and secularism.

---*-----


to the ones who think they are the owner of islam, who think they can judge who is religous or not, who mark people with some words and try to seem them as the enemy of islam. you are doing the worst damage ever possible to islam and muslims in the eyes of pepole who are not muslims but someday would like to be. therefore, there is a ''good place'' in the hell waiting for you.


to the ones who give those people the chance to seem them the owner of the islam, who let those people show anything like secularism as something against the islam and let those people use islam as tool in their sick-minded plans.

i did post an article here in order to see what muslims in other part of the world think about it, because there could be common sense among us, otherwise other sick-minded people continue using islam in their plans; i would like to give you an example from my country turkey; Mr. Tayyip Erdoğan and others like Abdullah Gül was the students of Necmettin ERBAKAN who was fundamentalist; they did criticize the west and usa in any thing that relates to islamic world, in turkey they did criticize secularism by showing it as equal to the last true religion in the world; they did criticize any thing in turkey that is brought up by the reforms of Atatürk; even they did call Atatürk with many insulting names, nearly they did condemn Atatürk for saving the country from the enemies, and also from the people that are the role models of Erbakan, Gül and Erdoğan... However, the turkish pm Mr. Erdoğan did visit Egypt after the spring and did deliver that ''but I am the prime minister of a secular state and I say, ‘I hope there will be a secular state in Egypt.’ ; however he is still in confusion about that, because he also added that '' I am a non-secular Muslim''. But untill those statments, in turkey we for years lived through a middle age discussion; that debate did cost many things in social life,education, economics etc. in turkey; because they did use islam in their plans, and they exploited the faith of people and sacrificed it for their plans.

there are other muslim-dominated countries, and i , as a muslim, do not want to see such people and their damages to those countries; because, as i said, it will cost the future of those countries, it will damage the social life, education, economics etc in those countries just like today it does; so please read the article i posted and let us know your thoughts in here, otherwise those sick-minded people continure sacrifising the future of you countires, and also showing the islam in the worst ways to people who someday would like to understand it.

Regards.

Stopped reading at the bold part.

@Atanz

I partly agree with you but it is evident that you do not know the whole story about Turkey. A couple month ago i wrote a post wherein i explained the demise of Ottoman and the creation of the modern Turkish republic. I wrote that "Only when a reform of this kind (critical spirit and free information flow without any restrictions) comes about will Turkey be able to combine the streams of its cultural heritage and evolve an in-
tegrated intellectual movement"
http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey...rn-thought-turkey-problem-yet-not-solved.html

One has also have to bear in mind that the current success of Turkey in economic sphere is due to the succesful team of the islamist AKP. Many Turks (mostly kemalists) think that Muslims are incapable of progress and innovation, due to current Muslim countries. But i would agree the quite opposite as i have done in the above thread. Turkey is a Muslim country and therefore as long as we are not in peace with all of our citizens we cannot reach social and economic success, it is impossible. My model is definately not Saudi Arabia or Iran, my model is Turkey and Malaysia. Muslim but partly succesfull countries due to succesful reforms and evolution. But i have for years tried to explain this very simple fact yet people are so much fed up with anti-islamic propoganda in the Turkish media for decades that they think every Muslim politician or every Muslim imam is corrupt. When in fact the quite opposite found place in Turkey. It was the so called "seculars" who ruined our economy the last 6-7 decades. I am on the brink on giving up on this issue because of the glued position of some "kemalists"

Atanz please read my OP in the thread i have posted. I would be happy to hear your critique
 
Not unique to a single group of society, our people is generally not mature enough to be tolerate and respect.
 
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