Turkish TAI TF-X in line with what PAF wants: PAC Kamra Chairman Air Marshal

[MastanKhan]

Tf-X mock-up 1/1
View attachment 565624View attachment 565625

Hi,

This looks like a TWIN ENGINE aircraft---so where would the Paf fit in---?

 

[imranyounus]

looks more like a refined airframe (in terms of stealthy shape) of SU 57 but interesting designs.
And good option for PAF if Turkey decides to go for higher russian content it might be a heavey fighter. in such case Pakistan can go for single engine light fighter and complemented by heavey TAI TF XX. which can be either directly purchased fro Turkey or produced under license.

And if its medium sized as it can't be light fighter with two engine than it can form the basis of Project Azam with customized avionics weapons sub system and even engine ( in case Turkey selected Russian/European engine)

 

[MastanKhan]

Not really. Pakistan is just attempting to be independent and self reliant. If you don't try, you won't learn and you must start from somewhere.

All I see is further evolution in Pakistani R&D department from the JF-17 Thunder program. One is a joint venture and the other is primarily a Pakistani venture running paralell with one another.

And please stop looking at this with corrupt DRDO goggles.

Hi,

Which in other words---if you fail---you fail---.

 

[imadul]

Do the Turk make or assemble GE F110? If they have materials and blade design tech sorted and now with 3D printers anything is possible

It is metallurgy. The heart of turbofan engineering is materials engineering. You cannot pour some iron, nickel, cobalt, and titanium in a 3d printer and voila here comes out super alloys to manufacturer turbofan engine Fan and turbine blades.
China has been struggling for decades to manufacture turbofan engines. They have some success but not to the world standard. The materials engineering of these engineering jewels has always been a closely guarded secret by RR, GE, PW, and CMF. China still not able to manufacture turbofan engines with its legendary reverse engineering skills.
@Deino. Plz comment on chinese gains in engineering military and commercial turbofans.

 

[MastanKhan]

It is metallurgy. The heart of turbofan engineering is materials engineering. You cannot pour some iron, nickel, cobalt, and titanium in a 3d printer and voila here comes out super alloys to manufacturer turbofan engine Fan and turbine blades.
China has been struggling for decades to manufacture turbofan engines. They have some success but not to the world standard. The materials engineering of these engineering jewels has always been a closely guarded secret by RR, GE, PW, and CMF. China still not able to manufacture turbofan engines with its legendary reverse engineering skills.
@Deino. Plz comment on chinese gains in engineering military and commercial turbofans.

Hi,

The reason the chinese turbofans failed was because they got sabotaged---.

As it is a well known fact that the chinese took advantage of lax security of west and enjoyed a lots of designs and technology information---but it came at a severe cost---.

Some these designs were intentionally made available by the west---but they were sabotaged---. Specially---the composition materials and percentages of the metals in the alloy for fan blades---.

The chinese had no way of telling---because the information was real close to the actual thing---. The materials in their final shape would fail at 200---250---300 hours of testing---. This means that you wasted over a year in testing---when it broke down---you thought it was a fault on your part---you may have missed something---you started again and got the same results---and now close to 3 or 4 years have gone by or maybe more time---.

So---they had to start again from zero & buildup from that

 

[imadul]

Hi,

The reason the chinese turbofans failed was because they got sabotaged---.

As it is a well known fact that the chinese took advantage of lax security of west and enjoyed a lots of designs and technology information---but it came at a severe cost---.

Some these designs were intentionally made available by the west---but they were sabotaged---. Specially---the composition materials and percentages of the metals in the alloy for fan blades---.

The chinese had no way of telling---because the information was real close to the actual thing---. The materials in their final shape would fail at 200---250---300 hours of testing---. This means that you wasted over a year in testing---when it broke down---you thought it was a fault on your part---you may have missed something---you started again and got the same results---and now close to 3 or 4 years have gone by or maybe more time---.

So---they had to start again from zero & buildup from that

Right! One can reverse engineer electronics but not sophisticated mechanical parts like turbofan engines. West learned science and tech after renaissance in 14th, 15th century and progressing since then. There is no shortcut for long haul hard work.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Right! One can reverse engineer electronics but not sophisticated mechanical parts like turbofan engines. West learned science and tech after renaissance in 14th, 15th century and progressing since then. There is no shortcut for long haul hard work.

They learn/steal/capture a lot from capturing German military techs after ww2 (operation paperclip)
@imadul
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The reason the chinese turbofans failed was because they got sabotaged---.

As it is a well known fact that the chinese took advantage of lax security of west and enjoyed a lots of designs and technology information---but it came at a severe cost---.

Some these designs were intentionally made available by the west---but they were sabotaged---. Specially---the composition materials and percentages of the metals in the alloy for fan blades---.

The chinese had no way of telling---because the information was real close to the actual thing---. The materials in their final shape would fail at 200---250---300 hours of testing---. This means that you wasted over a year in testing---when it broke down---you thought it was a fault on your part---you may have missed something---you started again and got the same results---and now close to 3 or 4 years have gone by or maybe more time---.

So---they had to start again from zero & buildup from that

Hi,

That item again failed at or around 250 hours of service---and now the red flags have gone up---. Now the fears are coming alive that there might be a possibility of a industrial grade sabotage from the 'source head'---.

So----now back to metallurgy & alloy manufacturing shop---.

This maybe just a simplified explanation of what might have happened---. If someone else has an in depth explanation---please do share it---.

Right! One can reverse engineer electronics but not sophisticated mechanical parts like turbofan engines. West learned science and tech after renaissance in 14th, 15th century and progressing since then. There is no shortcut for long haul hard work.

Hi,

Thank you---. There is a reason that there are only 3 top tier nations of the world that manufacture a top tier fighter aircraft engine---the US---the UK---France---and then a step below the Russians---and below them the chinese---.

How far behind are the chinese @messiach --?

 

[Ultima Thule]

Hi,

Thank you---. There is a reason that there are only 3 top tier nations of the world that manufacture a top tier fighter aircraft engine---the US---the UK---France---and then a step below the Russians---and below them the chinese---.

How far behind are the chinese @messiach --?

Do you remember operation paperclip of ww2 that USA/Russia steal German military tech after ww2 @MastanKhan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

 

[imadul]

They learn/steal/capture a lot from capturing German military techs after ww2 (operation paperclip)
@imadul
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Germany is Western, right. Point is they started from automobiles engines, to piston, jet, and turbofan engines. There is a long history.
Human skills are key. At top aviation engine manufacturers few people know alloy combinations. It is other thing competitors are killed. USA totally destroyed Canadian Avro Arrow fighter jet.

 

[xbat]

a few news from Turkish jet engine thanks to @ziya
total accumulated cycles (TAC ) of TS1400 is currently(expected) is 2500 at least, target is 5000. FYI F110-GE-129 has 6000 TAC , most recent ones. Turkey is not far behind .

What is TAC ? from F-16.NET
"In short a "TAC" or "Total Accumulated Cycle" is a form of life measurement that major engine components are tracked against. Mostly engine overhaul. (or in the PW Modular Concept, module overhauls) or other major components within the engine/modules.

In any given engine there are many MANY parts that are tracked by various methods. Engine Operating Time (EOT), Engine Flight Time (IFT), as well as other may be used. The method currently used by the USAF for fighter engines is TAC.

Think of an engine cycle as a throttle movement through the engine's operating range from OFF, to IDLE, through MID-Range, up to MIL and back again until it reaches OFF. Each time the engine accelerates or decelerates (or is started/stopped) wear/age is added to the components in the system at different rates. TAC is a complex calculation of engine RPM/Throttle usage.

Depending on how much a throttle is "used" during a flight, that flight may only accumulate a few "TACs" or many "TACs".

Example 1: A ferry-flight where the aircraft takes off, cruises, and lands with little throttle movement. On such a flight only 2 or 3 TACs will be used, even though the sortie may last for 6 hours.

Example 2: On a A/A combat mission, where the throttle is moved very often during ACM, an engine may gain 10-15 TACs even though the sortie is only 1 hour long.

The A/A mission's throttle movements and thrust demands put a lot more "stress" on the engine even though the flight time or operating time is short. It uses more of the engine's "life" than the first example where the aircraft flies "easily" from point to point without stressful demands from the engine.

There is no way to predict how many "TACs" will be used per hour or flight, as they are computed by actual engine RPM changes during actual flight operations. Even with a two-ship flight of the same duration/destination, one pilot may use more TACs than the other simply due to more/frequent throttle changes.

Commercial engines gain cycles very slowly compared to fighter engines. As a result they last a lot longer. "

 

[messiach]

They dont show much. Their academic background is exceptional. They have fitted RD33 into FC-1 for you. This is a testament to their workmanship. I can tell you by end 2005, they were in position to mass produce a high bypass turbine with consistency.

Hi,

That item again failed at or around 250 hours of service---and now the red flags have gone up---. Now the fears are coming alive that there might be a possibility of a industrial grade sabotage from the 'source head'---.

So----now back to metallurgy & alloy manufacturing shop---.

This maybe just a simplified explanation of what might have happened---. If someone else has an in depth explanation---please do share it---.



Hi,

Thank you---. There is a reason that there are only 3 top tier nations of the world that manufacture a top tier fighter aircraft engine---the US---the UK---France---and then a step below the Russians---and below them the chinese---.

How far behind are the chinese @messiach --?

 

[cabatli_53]

Mr Zubair Mahmood in TAI !

https://twitter.com/x/status/1151520412674789391

Pakistani officials visited SSB

https://twitter.com/x/status/1151426663240130560

 

[Globalwarrior]

They dont show much. Their academic background is exceptional. They have fitted RD33 into FC-1 for you. This is a testament to their workmanship. I can tell you by end 2005, they were in position to mass produce a high bypass turbine with consistency.

So they have come a long way now
Almost 15 years later they should come up with
Something reliable