Turkish TAI TF-X in line with what PAF wants: PAC Kamra Chairman Air Marshal

[Deino]

Only USA, Russia, China, and Japan are developing engines similar to F119.

Agreed, but only the US already have such an engine and this already since decades. You also forget the F135, which is one more generation ahead and they are already working on 6th generation engines, while all others are still trying to catch up with something comparable to the F119.

Anyway, I think we are going off-topic.

 

[randomradio]

according to TEMEL KOTIL ( President and CEO of Turkish Aerospace Industries )

-- the roll-out : 2023
-- First flight : 2026
-- in service : between 2029 and 2031

IMO as all Turkish aviation projects and their timelines ... highly unrealistic and unlikely but time will tell.

Three years is not enough to get a multirole jet tested and certified. You need a minimum of 5 years for that. The engines alone will take 2 years, and the Turks haven't even decided on one yet. Even the Chinese took 7 years to get to LRIP.

Also, why is there such a big gap between roll-out and first flight?

 

[Deino]

...

Also, why is there such a big gap between roll-out and first flight?

Simply since there is no conclusive realistic timeline ... it's all for the media, all for the masses.

 

[randomradio]

back stab and deceit of a friend. reverse engineer and steal the technology of your only ally and make a rip off of your own? I hope Chinese don't see such danger and refuse to sell us J 31 which they see as a potential money maker in future international sales to those customers who cant buy F 35 due to financial or political reasons.

You can bet the Chinese are making their own single-engined next gen jet for service induction.

Simply since there is no conclusive realistic timeline ... it's all for the media, all for the masses.

Yep.

Of course there's also a chance that someone else can come in and do it for the Turks rather quickly. So it depends on the requirements of the jet. If they want something that's on the same level as the F-35, then any major designer can step in with an equivalent for induction by 2030.

Both Russia and China are planning to adopt single-engined next gen jets in the future, so their assistance with engine and other tech will become easily available, if not from the West, where SAAB comes to mind if the Americans show no interest.

 

[cabatli_53]

Simply since there is no conclusive realistic timeline ... it's all for the media, all for the masses.

Taking timeline of programs to reach a conclusion about whether envisaged targets are realistics or media show. How logical is that? It is true that Turkish big programs mostly delay but At the end of the day, We always reach the results we have targeted. It has been done until today and It will be done for future. That is the gold point.

Besides, The evolution of HürJet and TF-X is already in progress. In recent months, Previously selected engine (17000lb) is replaced with a new one that has a thrust of 19200lb. New changes bring additional design changes on wing and fuselage so First flight of HürJet is delayed to 2023.

Design features of Tf-X keep its evolution in accordance to requirements. Wing area is increased to ~70m2 (previously 60m2), Wing length become 14m (previously 12m). It is aldo announced to perform maiden flight in 2026.

Taking those dates into consideration today, We may face addition delays during trial phase in future but that is the nature of such big scale programs. From a realistic frame, Who cares 2-3 years more delay If we have a real beast at the end of the day.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

IMO a very problematic post since even understandable by Alan Warnes' enthusiasm for the PAF it completely ignores the political issues:

Any possible Turkish-Pakistani JV would IMO - and especially in mind of the current nor really good Turkish-Western relationship exclude any further involvement form any major Western company, most importantly directly related to the engines.

I cannot imagine that - in mind of the close Sino-Pakistani friendship and relationship any Western government would agree either Rolls Royce or General Electric to sell its latest engine technology to Pakistan.
Consequently either the whole timeline of the TFX collapses or it has to be some sort of a Turkish-Pakistani-Chinese development based eventually on the FC-31/WS-19-combo ... which IMO Turkey will refuse.

As such, the TFX might be indeed exactly what the PAF wants in terms of technology and capabilities, but IMO such a cooperation is the same as the Su-57 aka FGFA is exactly what the IAF want, but given the political and financial background it does not fit.

It is matter of time, and enough money can buy time; even in some cases it cannot buy, then brain will create it eventually.

So, Today's condition can not guarantee the future conjecture but the future plans that are made today can; therefore, no harm for third party gets involved intellectually in sharing JV/risk for the future conjecture as long as they want to exist someway.

In short, for today you might be right, but for the future you are absolutely wrong given info of the plans of Turkey shared here.

 

[cabatli_53]

At almost all big scale programs, Some members judge the reality of targets since they can not believe on How Turks will manage to develop them while A few state just dominate the global market in specific engineering areas Turks want to step in. They mostly suspect the purpose of those elite programs whether they are to serve for inner politic benefits in election times instead of strong military aims. I have faced such commmets when It is introduced helicopter and gas turbine engine programs as well but You should not mix Turkish engineering efforts with activities of some countries. Turkey has a serious ambitious and reliable engineering baclground and experiences from many multi-national programs to develop and produce strategic systems since 1974. First flight of Gökbey helicopter is a great example to introduce Turkish engineering efforts. Look How rotor/flight computer is struggling to keep helicopter in hover position. It is same efforts of Turkish engineers who is struggling to achieve our ambitious goals for future.

 

[messiach]

Good work. Longway ahead. Thumbsup.

At almost all big scale programs, Some members judge the reality of targets since they can not believe on How Turks will manage to develop them while A few state just dominate the global market in specific engineering areas Turks want to step in. They mostly suspect the purpose of those elite programs whether they are to serve for inner politic benefits in election times instead of strong military aims. I have faced such commmets when It is introduced helicopter and gas turbine engine programs as well but You should not mix Turkish engineering efforts with activities of some countries. Turkey has a serious ambitious and reliable engineering baclground and experiences from many multi-national programs to develop and produce strategic systems since 1974. First flight of Gökbey helicopter is a great example to introduce Turkish engineering efforts. Look How rotor/flight computer is struggling to keep helicopter in hover position. It is same efforts of Turkish engineers who is struggling to achieve our ambitious goals for future.

I have been visiting Ankara because of Göktürk program 2009-2016. Turkey has done well despite Thales treachery.

At almost all big scale programs, Some members judge the reality of targets since they can not believe on How Turks will manage to develop them while A few state just dominate the global market in specific engineering areas Turks want to step in. They mostly suspect the purpose of those elite programs whether they are to serve for inner politic benefits in election times instead of strong military aims. I have faced such commmets when It is introduced helicopter and gas turbine engine programs as well but You should not mix Turkish engineering efforts with activities of some countries. Turkey has a serious ambitious and reliable engineering baclground and experiences from many multi-national programs to develop and produce strategic systems since 1974. First flight of Gökbey helicopter is a great example to introduce Turkish engineering efforts. Look How rotor/flight computer is struggling to keep helicopter in hover position. It is same efforts of Turkish engineers who is struggling to achieve our ambitious goals for future.

 

[MMM-E]

Turkish businesses and state-owned R&D centers have put amazing effort into their work and received amazing outcomes in the last decade and Turkey has done so much in so little time


10 years ago Turkey was nothing for Helicopter and Turboshaft Engine technologies

but as of 2019 Turkish Aerospace Industries wants to become one of Top 5 Helicopter producer in the world with 4 models in near future

to produce 120 Helicopters for per year

-- T-129 5 tons light Attack Helicopter
-- ATAK-2 10 tons heavy Attack Helicopter
-- T-625 GOKBEY 6 tons Utility Helicopter ( capacity : 12 troops )
-- TAI 12 tons Utility Helicopter ( capacity : 20 troops )
also T-70 Blackhawk Utility Helicopter ( under license production )


and TEI TS-1400 Turboshaft gas turbine Engine ( only a few countries in the world )

TAI T-129 Attack Helicopter






TAI T-625 Utility Helicopter ..... first flight : 2018 in service : 2021

Length : 15.87 m
Max take off weight : 6050 kg
Max cruise speed : 306 km/h
Service ceiling : 6.096 m
Range : 740 km
Capacity : 12
Engine : 2 x LHTEC CTS800 ( 1373 shp each ) .... 2 x TEI TS-1400 ( 1660 shp each )








TAI 10-12 tons class Utility Helicopter Project

TAI 10-12 ton Utility Helicopter with military configuration suitable for search and rescue and offshore operations will be developed

Max take off weight : 10-12 tons
Max cruise speed : 314 km/h
Range : 1000 km
Capacity : 20

TAI Heavy class Attack Helicopter ( Turkey joins to big club / American AH-64E .. Russian KA-52 )

First flight : 2024
MTOW : 10 tons
Speed : 172 kts ( 318 km/h )
Service ceiling : 20.000 feet ( 6.096 m )
Operation envelope : between -40 / +50 C day and night

MILDAR Millimeter wave fire control Radar
HEHSIS 360 degree Electronic Warfare Counter Measure System
DIRCM Infrared Counter Measure System
Target Detection System
Helicopter Obstacle Detection System
Modular Avionics Architecture
4 axis Autopilot
HELMET Integrated Display System
Ballistic protection heavy armored Cockpit ( resistant to 12.7 mm ammunition )
1200 kg weapon payload capacity

-- 30 mm Gun with buried munition box
-- CIRIT 70 mm laser guided Rockets
-- MIZRAK Anti Tank Missiles ( up to 16 ATGMs )
-- Air to Air Missiles

TAI heavy class Attack Helicopter will be 100% indigenous including Turboshaft Engine

ATAK-II Mock up in IDEF-2019

Meteksan MILDAR Milimeter Wave Fire Control Radar

-- LONGBOW The US ( range : 8 km )
-- MILDAR Turkey ( range : 12 km )










in 2010 if I would say this Turkey becomes the 3rd country in the world that developed 100% indigenous 10 ton class Heavy Attack Helicopter after the US and Russia in 2024 , everybody would say that stop dreaming and fancy unrealistic project

but now nobody can say that ATAK-II is fancy unrealistic project



btw Pakistan maybe also will interest in ATAK-II

 

[messiach]

Good effort. But still a long way to go.

and TEI TS-1400 Turboshaft gas turbine Engine ( only a few countries in the world )

btw Pakistan maybe also will interest in ATAK-II

 

[PurpleButcher]

ATAK-II Mock up in IDEF-2019

What a sexy beast especially the black paint job. I hope its as deadly as it is sexy

 

[Ali_Baba]

The development and enhancement of Turkish Defence Industry is a boon for Pakistan as it gives supplier diversity which is important for military security.

Now, if only Pakistan can fix her economy!

 

[Army research]

What a sexy beast especially the black paint job. I hope its as deadly as it is sexy

It's a model

 

[khanasifm]

Tf-x is more of a f-22 than multi role like f-35 with twin engine and ~30k kg weight class not sure how it meets paf light and stealth requirement unless idea is to go for 100 or so to replace f-16s like turkey and another light version ie single engine to replace jf-17 in future

 

[rcrmj]

only Turkey maintains good relationship with U.S then it can utilized advanced Western supply chain, so TF-X can be developed`````otherwise all the core parts and technologies that make 5th gen what it is will be mission impossible to Turkey````nationalism and good wishes cant solve any of those````

ayway, China's second type 5th gen will be shown to the public later this year````you guys can draw PAF's 5th gen fighter based on that! the frame looks like a hybird of F-22 and F-35```