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Turkish suppliers to be eliminated from F-35 program in 2020

You are spot on. The problem is all that u explained requires long term planning, something that is not done by nations where centre of power changes. Still turks should have acted smarter.
Pakistan on the other hand traded very carefully and smartly. And still is. The reason i guess we know is because centre of power is one since 1971. Seems as if even the liberal political parties in power were used to achieve this stable transition lolz... Genius
Pakistan learn the diversification of weapon after 71 embargo and again in 1998. Pakistan is the first country who build parallel sanction proof defence system .
 
It's a bitter pill to swollow but it's a fact. I am still shocked that Turkey shot Russian su34 in the Syrian war. Why didn't the west shoot the Russian planes? But it had to be Turkey, even if russian planes entered Turkey, it was accidental entry. Remember Russia didn't want to fight Turkey, it just wanted to help Assad.

Then the coup happened in Turkey. I believe erdogan government believes it was supported by the West and this is why their government changed its stance. This is again a big mistake. Yes even if USA supported it, then this still doesn't mean you change your direction 180%. Turkey should have instead realised the west is not for us so we will slowly open our trade, market, relations with Russia, Middle least, Africa and China. This should have taken them 20+ years. Then the west would have realised they have made a big mistake. This way after 20 years turkey could have had mixure economy, military between west, East and their own. This way they would have become powerful. This would have sent a strong message to all of the world that don't mess with Turkey. A clever policy.

Look at Pakistan. We knew after the 1990s Sanctions that West is not for us but China wasn't powerful then. Pakistan still tried to keep its relations with the west but also build up a strong relation with China the emerging power. Now China is a huge power and even the west knows Pakistan is in China camp. Still we try to get as much as from the west. Pakistan doesn't use threatening tone against anybody. It slowly built it's nuclear weapons and missile arsenal for defence. I know people call us West stooges but the reality is we are a poor nation. We don't have oil gas and we dont invent technology. So we will have to grow a thick skin in order to deal with the west bullying.

We have to realise Muslim nations are on the back foot. We need hard work in order to catch up, use clever policies. If you mess with USA then all Europe will back them. Where will you send your exports? The poor nations will not buy from you? Who will help you in your fight against the west? Certainly not the Muslim nations otherwise Palestine would be free, Iraq war would not have happened? Millions of Muslims are dying and we cannot help them and somehow we think we are powerful. We cannot even make a Muslim NATO. Even a joint Muslims science and technology Institute.

Yes I still have a faint hope that and more logical heads will prevail and someone will start thinking tactically.

Unfortunately some country folk have started to feel completely nationalistic and thinking along the lines they are Arab, Iranian, Pakistani first, but they forget that it will always mean they are easy pickings individually for the West without any collective pact.
 
Turkish suppliers to be eliminated from F-35 program in 2020
By: Valerie Insinna   18 hours ago

SKTO75P22JA4ZAKTXFN2R647WI.jpg

A mock-up of the F-35 cockpit is on display at an air show in Cigli, Turkey. (dardanellas/Getty Images)

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is preparing to transfer Turkey’s industrial participation in the F-35 to other countries unless Ankara reverses course on its plans to buy the Russian S-400 air defense system.

The move — which in early 2020 would end contracts with major Turkish defense contractors such as Turkish Aerospace Industries, Roketsan and Tusas Engine Industries, among many others — is just one of many steps the U.S. Defense Department intends to take to strip Turkey from the F-35 program, according to a June 6 letter from acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan.

The training of Turkish F-35 pilots at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona and of Turkish maintainers at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, will also end, Shanahan wrote, and U.S. military exercises in Turkey are in jeopardy.


How Turkey’s industry could suffer from the S-400 deal with Russia
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“If Turkey procures the S-400, as we discussed during our call on May 28, 2019, our two countries must develop a plan to discontinue Turkey’s participation in the F-35 program,” Shanahan wrote in the letter, which was addressed to his counterpart, Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar. “While we seek to maintain our valued relationship, Turkey will not receive the F-35 if Turkey takes delivery of the S-400.”

However, Ellen Lord, undersecretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment, noted that Turkish participation in the program would be allowed to continue if it drops its plan to buy the Russian air defense system. The delivery of the S-400 could occur as early as this month.


“Turkey still has the option to change course. If Turkey does not accept delivery of the S-400, we will enable Turkey to return to normal F-35 program activities,” she told reporters Friday. “Turkey is a close NATO ally and our military-to-military relationship is strong.”

Turkey, a partner in the F-35 program that helped fund the development of the jet, plans to buy 100 F-35As.

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Its first jet was rolled out in June 2018 in a festive “delivery ceremony,” but although Turkey formally owns its jets, the United States has the power to keep the planes from moving to Turkish soil and intends to keep all four existing Turkish jets from leaving the United States.


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At Turkey's F-35 rollout ceremony, there was flute-playing, a man in a bird outfit, and not a word about its controversial S-400 deal with Russia.

By: Valerie Insinna
Lord told reporters that the Pentagon is still deciding what it will do with Turkey’s jets. One option would be to buy the aircraft and repurpose them for the U.S. Air Force, but no official decision has been made.

Turkish companies are responsible for 937 parts used to build the F-35, with 400 of those sole-sourced from Turkish firms, Lord said. Existing contracts would go through a “disciplined and graceful wind down” period in “early 2020,” Lord said.


“If we can work to our timelines with the Turks, we would have no major disruptions and very few delays,” she said.

Vice Adm. Mat Winter, the F-35’s program executive, said in April that 50-75 aircraft could be delayed over a two-year period if Turkey is removed from the program, according to Breaking Defense. But Lord said those disruptions would occur only if the Pentagon terminated its supply chain agreements this summer.

Ultimately, prime contractors Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney will make the decisions on which subcontractors replace the Turkish vendors, but the Pentagon has identified new suppliers that could step up and make the parts currently sole-sourced by Turkey.

“They are predominantly U.S. sources. That’s not to say that we won’t continue to do what we always do with program management and look for other sources, because we would like to have second, third sources for most of the items,” she said.

The Defense Department has already stopped material deliveries to Turkey, halting the buildup of an engine overhaul facility that was planned to be built in and operated by Turkey.


“There are two other European MRO&Us [maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade facilities] that can absorb the volume with no issue whatsoever,” Lord said.

Despite Turkey’s industrial role in the program, Lord said she was confident that all important technical information would stay secure.

"We control what is downloaded from our computers. We have shared what's appropriate. The Turks have no critical documentation that we're concerned about,” she said.

What’s the impact on Turkish F-35 training?

The most immediate impact to Turkey, according to the letter from Shanahan, is that no new Turkish students will begin F-35 training at Luke Air Force Base. This defers the training of 20 students scheduled to begin training in June, as well as 14 students between July and November 2019.

“This training will not occur because we are suspending Turkey from the F-35 program; there are no longer requirements to gain proficiencies on the systems,” according to a document attached to the letter that spelled out the schedule for Turkey’s removal from the program.


In addition, the country will not be allowed to attend the annual F-35 Chief Executive Officer roundtable on June 12 — depriving Turkey of the opportunity to give input on any changes to the program’s governing documents.


4 questions on the risks facing Turkey’s defense industry
Bulent Aliriza of the Center for Strategic and International Studies outlines what he sees as potential hurdles for Turkey's defense industry in the coming years.

By: Aaron Mehta
But the most major day of reckoning is July 31, when Turkish personnel would no longer be allowed to access Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, where pilots are trained; Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, where maintainers are trained; or the F-35 Joint Program Office in Washington, D.C., where Turkish “cooperative project personnel” are stationed. Instead, the Turkish personnel must depart the United States and return to their country.

There are currently 42 Turkish military personnel training at Luke and Eglin — four pilots, and the rest maintainers. The July 31 deadline would allow 28 of them to complete their training, but the remainder would be sent home before their training naturally concluded, according to information attached to Shanahan’s letter.

The two Turkish instructor pilots based at Luke, who have completed the F-35 pilot training, would also be sent back to Turkey.

The larger impact


The situation with Turkey is fraught for myriad political and national security reasons. As the lone predominantly Muslim nation in NATO, Turkey occupies an important position in the alliance. The nation is also home to Incirlik Air Base, which is used by both the U.S. and Turkish air forces.

In the hopes of resolving the issue, the United States has sent technical teams to Ankara and hosted meetings in Washington to discuss the threat posed by the S-400 and the Pentagon’s offer of Raytheon’s Patriot air and missile defense system.

So far, those efforts have been unsuccessful, with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan continuing to make strong statements in support of an S-400 buy and the country’s defense minister acknowledging that Turkish military personnel had been sent to Russia for training on the air defense system.


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Washington has threatened to expel Ankara from the Joint Strike Fighter program if Turkey deploys the Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile system on its soil.

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Asked whether a final decision to buy the S-400 should be interpreted as Turkey bolstering its relationship with Russia at the expense of NATO, Andrew Winternitz, acting deputy assistant secretary of defense for Europe, demurred.

“Our counterparts really want to continue our really strategic partnership and our cooperation at NATO. And so we hope this is an aberration,” he said.


If Turkey buys the S-400, he added, “it changes our relationship, but it’s not something that we hope is going to disturb the many-layered strategic partnership that we have in Turkey across a number of issues.”

But other political actions may be unavoidable.

Should Turkey move forward with the S-400 purchase, it could trigger additional sanctions from Congress as part of the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act, which penalizes U.S. partners who purchase Russian military equipment.

It could also impact future military exercises in Turkey, Winternitz said.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...s-to-be-eliminated-from-f-35-program-in-2020/
Whatever the outcome Turkey is on its way out of NATO

Yes I still have a faint hope that and more logical heads will prevail and someone will start thinking tactically.

Unfortunately some country folk have started to feel completely nationalistic and thinking along the lines they are Arab, Iranian, Pakistani first, but they forget that it will always mean they are easy pickings individually for the West without any collective pact.
Kinda late for it now?
 
Whatever the outcome Turkey is on its way out of NATO


Kinda late for it now?

Yes it does feel like that, as last few weeks have shown with situation with Iran. They should have woken up after the Iraq War.
 
Yes I still have a faint hope that and more logical heads will prevail and someone will start thinking tactically.

Unfortunately some country folk have started to feel completely nationalistic and thinking along the lines they are Arab, Iranian, Pakistani first, but they forget that it will always mean they are easy pickings individually for the West without any collective pact.
I don't see any issue with having national thinking or loving your country. The mindset has to change from racist national thinking to having a national thinking aswell with having an Islamic Union mindset. If 3 Muslim nations have an block then every 3 years the block head changes. The mindset should be we need to improve our trade, economy, technology, education.

The racist national thinking is that our nation is better than other and we to domiate others. You don't compare yourself with others, you just love your own nation and work for their benefit in alliance with other Nations.

People in Europe still have national thinking but they are educated enough to know we still have to work with other nations to become powerful. They have a agreement not to harm each other because they have learnt from world war 1 and 2. This is taught in schools in order to build your mindset.

Muslims also need to learn this. In our history we had tribes fighting each other but Islam came and said love yourself, your tribes, culture, nations but be United aswell. This is why we expanded at a rabid pace. We need to change our education system in to this.
 
I don't see any issue with having national thinking or loving your country. The mindset has to change from racist national thinking to having a national thinking aswell with having an Islamic Union mindset. If 3 Muslim nations have an block then every 3 years the block head changes. The mindset should be we need to improve our trade, economy, technology, education.

The racist national thinking is that our nation is better than other and we to domiate others. You don't compare yourself with others, you just love your own nation and work for their benefit in alliance with other Nations.

People in Europe still have national thinking but they are educated enough to know we still have to work with other nations to become powerful. They have a agreement not to harm each other because they have learnt from world war 1 and 2. This is taught in schools in order to build your mindset.

Muslims also need to learn this. In our history we had tribes fighting each other but Islam came and said love yourself, your tribes, culture, nations but be United aswell. This is why we expanded at a rabid pace. We need to change our education system in to this.

That is right, being nationalist is good. But there is nothing wrong with having military alliance or co-operation. It doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive - the problem is they have been too proud/ignorant to do it and are now picked off one by one. It is a shame
 
Why didn’t Turkey just wait till it had some F35s in its possession and then order the S400?

It wont work even if Turkeys gets the F35s the parts and maintence will always be under American hands.

When Usa puts a block on the F35s basically those F35s wont be used anymore due to blockage of parts and supplies.
 
It wont work even if Turkeys gets the F35s the parts and maintence will always be under American hands.

When Usa puts a block on the F35s basically those F35s wont be used anymore due to blockage of parts and supplies.
No, they can disable all codes and make the plane useless to fly. For such machine, the programmers always leave backdoor entry.
 
No, they can disable all codes and make the plane useless to fly. For such machine, the programmers always leave backdoor entry.

Source codes too I forgot to mention that
 
It wont work even if Turkeys gets the F35s the parts and maintence will always be under American hands.

When Usa puts a block on the F35s basically those F35s wont be used anymore due to blockage of parts and supplies.
I agree they did the same to Iran after the shah
 
Your indigenous weapons are your prisoners, when you get them from the USA you become their prisoners...
 
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Backstabbing his long time ally , for a weapon system that would be out of date in a few years , is one of the more stupid things Erdogan did.

I remember back in 2009 , Obama chose turkey to be the first country to visit after he got elected. Back than Erdogan was still considered as the leader who carries the torch of democracy , secularism and freedom and hopefully would set the tone in the middle east. ( what a disappointment he turned out to be as far as democracy is concerned )

this is what Obama said than :


" This is my first trip overseas as President of the United States. I've been to the G20 summit in London, and the NATO summit in Strasbourg, and the European Union summit in Prague. Some people have asked me if I chose to continue my travels to Ankara and Istanbul to send a message to the world. And my answer is simple: Evet -- yes. (Applause.) Turkey is a critical ally. Turkey is an important part of Europe. And Turkey and the United States must stand together -- and work together -- to overcome the challenges of our time. "

And this is how Erdogan thinks is wise to treat his ally who also happens to be the world strongest super power. I wonder who does he think will come to his aid if he gets into trouble.




Other countries are watching and they can only arrive at one conclusion :

The capricious Erdogan cant be trusted to be loyal to his allies.



https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/06/us/politics/06obama-text.html
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