Turkey navy to escort aid ships to Palestinians in Gaza

[Abu Zolfiqar]

are you familiar with the Balfour Declaration

as for Jerusalem --- many Muslims reside there. It is a multi-ethnic city. I actually believe that some kind of political solution should be reached whereby it is jointly administered between israel and a united Palestinian state.

It is of great importance for Muslims, Jews and Christians -- 3 Abrahamic faiths.


to say that there are no Muslims ''within 100 miles of Jerusalem'' is factually INCORRECT.

 

[Meengla]

Actual story is bit different. Did you know that most of early Israeli land was owned by Jews and sold by so called Palestinians?

Zionist line of propaganda. You will find plenty of refutation of that.
Yes, of course Israelis not going to say that they are there because of some 'God-Given' land. The world is too smart, too secular to accept that line of argument.
And hence the argument was invented that Israelis bought tens of thousands of square miles!
Not 'buying' your argument. Pun or not!

 

[jdme]

'surrender'?
I think technically even the US is expecting a 'land swap' to happen eventually. I think it is hardly worth pointing out the 'swap' is based on land taken illegally and hence corresponding portions must be given back in an 'exchange'. Devil is in the details, of course. Water-rich lands or Negev desert. E. Jerusalem or not.
Palestinians have the world besides them. Even the EU can change in a heart-beat for Pals. It is only a few hundred paid-for Congressmen and Senators and a few dozens media empires who make Pals look bad.

But that's not what most Muslim countries want. If they want Israel to reduce the violence, they should do the same. Unfortunately, even if Palestinians come to accept an agreement with Israel which involves territory swap, rest of the Islamic world never would. They want Israel nation disappear from face of ME. That is the only term they will accept. This idea has been reinforced so many times inside Israeli psyche that they will never take the first step. For them, it is their very existence that is at stake.

 

[Meengla]

Occupation is a loaded word and yet you throw it around so casually. As I said earlier, It is a Pals-Isri issue. Let them resolve it peacefully (or if they want, fight over it).
There is nothing positive when the so-called Muslims living in the West or East go pop-pop on this.

It is 'occupation' and you will find plenty of references to the 'Occupied Territories' in Israel itself.

About the 'so-called' Muslims, I don't know what you mean by that? Beginning to show your true colors, I guess? How many times I have told you that a Pal state has a majority of the UN supporting it and yet to keep saying 'Islamists' and 'Muslims' etc? Doding the question?

BTW, this is a global issue. Some of the most prominent Jews themselves support the Palestinians. Your attempt to cheapen the discourse to 'Islamists' AKP or 'so-called Muslims' etc are not going to work.

 

[jdme]

Zionist line of propaganda. You will find plenty of refutation of that.
Yes, of course Israelis not going to say that they are there because of some 'God-Given' land. The world is too smart, too secular to accept that line of argument.
And hence the argument was invented that Israelis bought tens of thousands of square miles!
Not 'buying' your argument. Pun or not!

Yes yes, ofcourse...all facts are Zionist propaganda. I find plenty of refutation for moon landing too. Only Muslim world is too smart. Rest accepts the events that lead to creation of Israel even if it doesn't like how it turned and how Palestinians became the punching bag for everyone else.

---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 PM ----------

It is 'occupation' and you will find plenty of references to the 'Occupied Territories' in Israel itself.

About the 'so-called' Muslims, I don't know what you mean by that? Beginning to show your true colors, I guess? How many times I have told you that a Pal state has a majority of the UN supporting it and yet to keep saying 'Islamists' and 'Muslims' etc? Doding the question?

BTW, this is a global issue. Some of the most prominent Jews themselves support the Palestinians. Your attempt to cheapen the discourse to 'Islamists' AKP or 'so-called Muslims' etc are not going to work.

What is an occupation? All of Israel is occupied? What would this alleged "paradigm shift" would look like? Jews folding bags and leaving ME?

 

[Meengla]

Unfortunately, even if Palestinians come to accept an agreement with Israel which involves territory swap, rest of the Islamic world never would. They want Israel nation disappear from face of ME. That is the only term they will accept. .

No. I don't buy this argument at all. There may be some lunatics who may want Israel to vanish but the Saudi Peace Proposal of 2002 is very clear on making peace. They are even willing to let go of the Refugees Right to Return.

You severely underestimate the desire for the Israelis to gobble up the whole land because of an ancient claim on that land. I have read at least some honest Israelis who invoke 'God Given' land to justify their policies. I have even read some Israeli bloggers say that, pretty much, we will do to the Pals what the Europeans did to the American Indians. At least these people were honest instead of talking big words to hide their intentions. I respect that in a person.

 

[FaujHistorian]

....
Actual story is bit different. Did you know that most of early Israeli land was owned by Jews and sold by so called Palestinians?

This is an important point. Many of my fellow paks do not study history, and thus they are gullible to the propaganda of Islamists aka Ben fing ladeen.

In the early parts of 20th century, Jewish people had already setup up huge farms in the areas that are now Israel. Cities like Haifa were known for their "Orange bars" that would specialize in serving fresh juice from the local oranges. This is just an example. Jewish people bought land from Palestinians and paid asking price. This process went on for decades if not a century.

If the local Palestinians didn't figure out the after effects and sold their lands to Jewish people, then who are we in Pakistan to say anything in this matter and even so long ago happenings (distance and timewise).


This is not to say the the whole area of Israel today is bought. But then again we in Pakistan cannot hit our heads with rocks. Or worse burn down Pakistan so as to express our anger.

It was and it remains an issue with the local Pals. Their forefathers made mistakes not ours.

So let them live in peace, and let's live without fuming and frothing at other Pakistanis who have nothing to do with current of Past mistakes of Palestinians.

Pals made huge mistakes or bad decisions in the past. They were in the lap of Commie Soviet Union and got arms and money from it.

Israel on the other hand was a proxy for USA. But in that respect both are even. One commie-lacky and the other US ally.

Perhaps Pals should pick their allies more carefully next time.

But no matter what we do or say, Pals are not picking up Pakistan as their ally,

And we should simply respond in kind.

peace.

 

[Meengla]

We can get side-tracked big time if I were to start posting about the demographics of the region pre-1948 and how could Pals have sold tens of thousands of miles of the land in that region to the extent they would be forced to live in the ghettos themselves. Same kind of utter BS has been expressed about American Indians by the Europeans.
Trust me: Every colonialists has/had some 'reasons' for their actions against the 'indigenous' people. Even Genghis Khan must have rationalized his plunders and occupations.

What I want to address is the present. A present where, contrary to the @FaujiHistorian's lies, Pals themselves are refusing to accept the role of subjects of Israel and they DO live within a 100 miles of Jerusalem.

Israeli apologists have no answers to that except the threat of force.

 

[jdme]

No. I don't buy this argument at all. There may be some lunatics who may want Israel to vanish but the Saudi Peace Proposal of 2002 is very clear on making peace. They are even willing to let go of the Refugees Right to Return.

You severely underestimate the desire for the Israelis to gobble up the whole land because of an ancient claim on that land. I have read at least some honest Israelis who invoke 'God Given' land to justify their policies. I have even read some Israeli bloggers say that, pretty much, we will do to the Pals what the Europeans did to the American Indians. At least these people were honest instead of talking big words to hide their intentions. I respect that in a person.

And you take opinion of some fringe Jews as opinion of Majority? You don't think Israelis also want peace? See you cannot expect them to move forward when you are not willing to move forward. This believe is no different from believe that Jews stole "Palestinian" land even though there was no such country. If you want paradigm shift, it will have to come from both sides. Once state of Palestine is created, Israel will never attack due to international person, whatever some fanatic Jews desire. This believe is no different from believe a Pakistani who thinks who thinks India is itching to grab their "land" even though most Indians cannot even describe a single city in Pakistan.

There needs to be a acceptance of reality from both sides. There are enough countries to pressure Israel in accepting a deal if other side comes to table too. Ofcourse that deal must somehow work for both sides and it ends the violence from all sides. Otherwise, it would never happen.

 

[jdme]

We can get side-tracked big time if I were to start posting about the demographics of the region pre-1948 and how could Pals have sold tens of thousands of miles of the land in that region to the extent they would be forced to live in the ghettos themselves. Same kind of utter BS has been expressed about American Indians by the Europeans.
Trust me: Every colonialists has/had some 'reasons' for their actions against the 'indigenous' people. Even Genghis Khan must have rationalized his plunders and occupations.
e.

What nonsense. No one is saying anything about current size of Israeli state. Anything grabbed about 1968 must be returned. What is being discussed here is the ORIGIN of the problem! You know, this refusal to accept the very state of Israel. I mean, why did 5 Muslim countries invaded Israel the very day it was created? It occupied only fraction of land back then. Must be because Zionists were out to capture all the lands in the world even though they had to pay for most of what they had!

 

[FaujHistorian]

....... to say that there are no Muslims ''within 100 miles of Jerusalem'' is factually INCORRECT.

Dear poster,

Go read the post. You are reading it out of context.


peace.

 

[Meengla]

@JDME,
The Pals refused the Balfour Declaration for their own reasons. They refused the UN Partition Plan for their reasons. You expected them to let their land be carved?
Their decision turned out to be wrong. But the Israelis themselves defy the UN all the time; in fact, UN is called 'biased' routinely so please don't try to sound like the Pals are only one who 'refused' UN plans. And, yes, this pertains to the 'origin' of the problem as much as it pertains to the perpetuation of the problem.
About your drivel about the 'Zionist' propaganda the less said the better. It is not just 'Islamists' who are supportive of the Pals. This cheapening of discourse has been tried by our own FaujiHistorian. There is a wide spread support for the Pal state along the 1967 lines. Apparently you too support that? If so then good!

 

[jdme]

@JDME,
The Pals refused the Balfour Declaration for their own reasons. They refused the UN Partition Plan for their reasons. You expected them to let their land be carved?

Er...not Palestinians but some people claiming to speak for Palestinians? Was there some kind of vote? Did Palestinians invade Israel? And if they were so concerned, why did they sell their lands to Jews? So they liked money, just not Jews, I guess. It's a silly story that there was a country called Palestine. Worse, that it was filled with "Palestinians".

I wouldn't deny that thousands of Palestinians did become victim to this UN partition plan but that was the extent. Israel was created around the area already bough by Jews. So how exactly "their" land was carved? Were they actually living their? Most ME countries are artificial made AFTER British left ME.

Their decision turned out to be wrong. But the Israelis themselves defy the UN all the time; in fact, UN is called 'biased' routinely so please don't try to sound like the Pals are only one who 'refused' UN plans.

Another false story. UN plan was never acted on because Britain refused and the moment it left, 5 muslim countries attacked Israel. So what I am saying is that Pals have taken for ride by their neighbors, It is their neighbors who fomented this violence and are maintaining the status quo.

And, yes, this pertains to the 'origin' of the problem as much as it pertains to the perpetuation of the problem.
About your drivel about the 'Zionist' propaganda the less said the better. It is not just 'Islamists' who are supportive of the Pals. This cheapening of discourse has been tried by our own FaujiHistorian. There is a wide spread support for the Pal state along the 1967 lines. Apparently you too support that? If so then good!

All Muslim countries are "Islamist". Why else would Turkey be so concerned about Palestinians when Turk treats Kurd like scum in their own country? Why hasn't Turkey sent Warship to Syria?

If you want peace and Palestinian state, make it happen! But first assure Israel that is all you want. No wiping them of the face of the earth. Lay off the "Zionist" story.

 

[Executioner]

What nonsense. No one is saying anything about current size of Israeli state. Anything grabbed about 1968 must be returned. What is being discussed here is the ORIGIN of the problem! You know, this refusal to accept the very state of Israel. I mean, why did 5 Muslim countries invaded Israel the very day it was created? It occupied only fraction of land back then. Must be because Zionists were out to capture all the lands in the world even though they had to pay for most of what they had!

By the way how many times Israel was attacked by Muslim countries and what was the result ?

 

[HK-47]

Actually the 1967 War was a pre-emptive strike by Israel, but Israelis justify that the Arabs were gathering troops on the border and were prepping to attack.
And then the 1956 Suez Canal War saw Israel participating in it along side the Europeans.I don't know much about the latter, was Israel provoked to do so in the 1956 war?
Interestingly they both had to do something with waterways rather than land.