Turkey Contained ?

[ovarel]

You are completely clueless and your post reeks of ignorance, so i will put you on my ignore list since you resorted to personal attacks against me. Not to mention i reported you.

I didnt attack you. You werent able to realize on what direction your political views fall and i made it clear for us. Its corporatism.

Its you attacked me first when you claimed that i(as a Turk) am not free etc.
You can have positive opinions about Iran to the extent you wish. But it doesnt give you the right to talk bs about me.

 

[BronzePlaque]

You are completely clueless and your post reeks of ignorance, so i will put you on my ignore list since you resorted to personal attacks against me. Not to mention i reported you.

Stop whining dude

 

[DRaisinHerald]

Immature!
I don't think a reasonable person would deny KSA great influence nowadays, due to its position as a leader of Muslim world as its the sponsor of the two holy mosques as well as considering its largest oil reserves in the world along with its great wealth

1) KSA doesn't lead the Muslim world. And I doubt they will ever. Besides, we don't need a leader.
2) KSA actually holds the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world, not the largest.

 

[Kompromat]

Not at all. Considering you are a "Opinionator" with 9,989 posts, i expected that you would have read my post, but it seems you didn't and instead went off on a tangent, now unless you can point to me where exactly i have stated in my post that "we should have a big bearded unelected mullah having dictatorial powers sitting on top of Pakistan", you are nothing but a ignorant liar putting words in my mouth without any evidence.



Rest of your post is just rubbish and has nothing to prove about what i stated in my post.

I read the thread before & all of that talk about shining women rights and R&D is just propaganda , i challenge you that Iran doesn't have the technology to develop a decent assault rifle of its own.

What R&D you are talking about , what foreign policy are you talking about , what happened to the green movement of Iran?
Iran is a pure dictatorship which has well working propaganda machine funded by petro dollars to spread and show that they are advance in technology.

I can tell you for a fact , i have been to Iran , listening that Pakistan is a toilet & you Pakistanis are dirty over and over again is not a very nice thing to hear.

 

[Desert Fox]

I read the thread before & all of that talk about shining women rights and R&D is just propaganda , i challenge you that Iran doesn't have the technology to develop a decent assault rifle of its own.

What R&D you are talking about , what foreign policy are you talking about , what happened to the green movement of Iran?
Iran is a pure dictatorship which has well working propaganda machine funded by petro dollars to spread and show that they are advance in technology.

I can tell you for a fact , i have been to Iran , listening that Pakistan is a toilet & you Pakistanis are dirty over and over again is not a very nice thing to hear.

Again, Mr Opinionator with 9,992 posts, prove where i stated or suggested in my post that "we should have a big bearded unelected mullah having dictatorial powers sitting on top of Pakistan".

Regarding the rest of your post, again its worthless since i don't know if you are lacking comprehension skills or what, but no where did i mention in my post that Pakistan should adopt Iranian model or isolate itself, as you are here suggesting i stated or implied that. Secondly, i can give two hoots if Iran can't produce a assault rifle or not, since that was not the point of my posts.

I can tell you for a fact , i have been to Iran , listening that Pakistan is a toilet & you Pakistanis are dirty over and over again is not a very nice thing to hear.

If that is what they call us, then they are indeed wrong, but tell me how do we Pakistanis treat our own? Do we treat each other any better?

 

[DRaisinHerald]

I can tell you for a fact , i have been to Iran , listening that Pakistan is a toilet & you Pakistanis are dirty over and over again is not a very nice thing to hear.

Then start improving yourselves. You can't expect respect when your getting killed like dogs in you own country, can you?

.....Again, Mr Opinionator with 9,992 posts....

You're repeating the same things again and again. I think what he meant to say was that with all the negative propaganda about Iran, he doesn't want Pakistan to go down the same route as Iran and you (might) suggest.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

On September 15, King Hussein declared martial law. The next day, Jordanian tanks (the 60th Armored Brigade of the Jordanian Army) attacked the headquarters of Palestinian organizations in Amman; the army also attacked camps in Irbid, Salt, Sweileh, Baq'aa, Wehdat and Zarqa. Then the head of Pakistani training mission to Jordan, Brigadier Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (later Chief of Army Staff and President of Pakistan), took command of the 2nd division.

However, the Jordanians could not devote all their attention to the Palestinians. The 3rd Armoured Division of the Iraqi Army had remained in Jordan after the 1967 war. The Iraqi regime sympathised with the Palestinians, and it was unclear whether the division would intervene on the part of the Palestinians. Thus the 99th Brigade of the Jordanian 3rd Armoured Division had to be retained to watch the Iraqi division.Arafat later claimed that the Jordanian army killed between 10,000 and 25,000 Palestinians, although more conservative estimates put the number between 1000 and 2000

I highly respect you my brother, but let me elaborate what you stated here:
I find Pakistani here over exaggerate their roles in all Arab wars, actually one of Pakistani members claimed that Pakistani fighters shot down most Israeli jets in 67 war . Anyway, Arabs will always remember Pakistani participation in Arabs wars and they highly appreciate it. But it was a nominal participation along with NK & Cuba contributions. In fact, Jordanian army got trained by British trainers, and after the Arabisation of Jordanian army, several Arab armies got trained by Jordanian trainers. I would appreciate if Pakistanis here mention Jordanian participation in their wars with India.

Regarding Black September, actually, Half of Jordanian Army in that time were Palestinians, The head of Jordanian intelligence agency was Palistnian. As well as, there were Jordanian among Fedaeen. Jordan took the risk of Fedaeen operations against Israel, but they turned to killing Israeli civilians by hijacking Israeli Civilian jets to Jordan which put Jordan in an awkward position toward the world. PS, Fedaeen crossed the line by violating Jordan laws. However it was between Fedaeen and Jordanian army not between Jordanians and Palestinians. Both of them were armed and both of them killed from eachother. Therefore it was a civil war between Fedaeen and Jordanian army not between Palistanians and Jordanians. My grand father was a Fedaei by the way.

 

[Desert Fox]

You're repeating the same things again and again. I think what he meant to say was that with all the negative propaganda about Iran, he doesn't want Pakistan to go down the same route as Iran and you (might) suggest.

First of all, if anyone's going to accuse me of something then they should at least be able to prove it with evidence, otherwise they need to stop spreading baseless lies about me.


Secondly, Pakistan is already in a worse off position, so what's to talk about Pakistan going down Iran's path when we have Saudi funded terrorism, sectarian violence, drone strikes, American agents killing our civilians, American drones bombings our people, suicide bombers, terrorists, NATO Apaches killing our soldiers and getting away with it, NATO helos entering our airspace at will, ethnic violence in Karachi, our economic city, not to mention the poverty which drastically increased due to earthquakes and floods, on top of that we have immense corruption and democratic institutions that are nothing but a facade.

 

[DRaisinHerald]

we have Saudi funded terrorism

O God, you and I already know KSA isn't sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan, so stop repeating that stuff again and again.
But you got the other points right.
However just because we're suffering heavily because of all this, it doesn't mean we should go the rogue way. And don't get me wrong, me saying rogue means "recluse".

 

[Desert Fox]

I highly respect you my brother, but let me elaborate what you stated here:
I find Pakistani here over exaggerate their roles in all Arab wars, actually one of Pakistani members claimed that Pakistani fighters shot down most Israeli jets in 67 war .

Whoever claimed that Pakistani pilots shot down most israeli aircraft was wrong, however if you look at the kill ratio then yes Pakistan pilots did prove to be far superior to the Arab pilots.

Pakistani pilots participated in both Arab-israeli wars of 1967 and 1973, and in both wars our pilots shot down israeli aircraft and in both wars we didn't lose a single pilot, while on the other hand Arabs were taking a beating from the Israelis.

Always look at the kill ratio. A well known Pakistani Pilot, Saiful Azam, shot down three IAF jets and no one, not even arab pilots, ever scored that many israeli kills.

Anyway, Arabs will always remember Pakistani participation in Arabs wars and they highly appreciate it. But it was a nominal participation along with NK & Cuba contributions. In fact, Jordanian army got trained by British trainers, and after the Arabisation of Jordanian army, several Arab armies got trained by Jordanian trainers. To be honest, I have never heard of Pakistani participation in Black September. I would appreciate if Pakistanis here mention Jordanian participation in their wars with India.

I don't know of any Jordanian or Arab participation in indo-Pak wars, if you do know then provide source and information, because as far as i'm concerned, Arabs have always maintained cordial ties with india, but i'm sure you will get a taste of indian backstabbing first hand, don't believe me? Ask the Iranians.

Regarding Black September, actually, Half of Jordanian Army in that time were Palestinians, The head of Jordanian intelligence agency was Palistnian. As well as, there were Jordanian among Fedaeen. Jordan took the risk of Fedaeen operations against Israel, but they turned to killing Israeli civilians by hijacking Israeli Civilian jets to Jordan which put Jordan in an awkward position toward the world. PS, Fedaeen crossed the line by violating Jordan laws. However it was between Fedaeen and Jordanian army not between Jordanians and Palestinians. Both of them were armed and both of them killed from eachother. Therefore it was a civil war between Fedaeen and Jordanian army not between Palistanians and Jordanians. My grand father was a Fedaei by the way.

But Palestinians say that it was Jordan who murdered Palestinians, which is why they call it Black September, at least that is what a Palestinian told me.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Whoever claimed that Pakistani pilots shot down most israeli aircraft was wrong, however if you look at the kill ratio then yes Pakistan pilots did prove to be far superior to the Arab pilots.

Pakistani pilots participated in both Arab-israeli wars of 1967 and 1973, and in both wars our pilots shot down israeli aircraft and in both wars we didn't lose a single pilot, while on the other hand Arabs were taking a beating from the Israelis.

Always look at the kill ratio. A well known Pakistani Pilot, Saiful Azam, shot down three IAF jets and no one, not even arab pilots, ever scored that many israeli kills.




I don't know of any Jordanian or Arab participation in indo-Pak wars, if you do know then provide source and information, because as far as i'm concerned, Arabs have always maintained cordial ties with india, but i'm sure you will get a taste of indian backstabbing first hand, don't believe me? Ask the Iranians.


But Palestinians say that it was Jordan who murdered Palestinians, which is why they call it Black September, at least that is what a Palestinian told me.

Now its not exaggerating but lying as well. Jordan won in Alkarama battle in 1968 and Egypt won in 1973 war. If you are eager to make it one to one competition, then why Pakistani superior army were defeated in all Indian-Pakistani wars my Afghani friend?
Pakistani pilots shot down 10 Israeli jets while Arab pilots shot down 36 in 1967 war, and thats because most of Arab aircraft got bombed on the ground by Israeli preemptive strike. However, Arabs shot down 303 Israeli jets in 1973.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Whoever claimed that Pakistani pilots shot down most israeli aircraft was wrong, however if you look at the kill ratio then yes Pakistan pilots did prove to be far superior to the Arab pilots.

Pakistani pilots participated in both Arab-israeli wars of 1967 and 1973, and in both wars our pilots shot down israeli aircraft and in both wars we didn't lose a single pilot, while on the other hand Arabs were taking a beating from the Israelis.

Always look at the kill ratio. A well known Pakistani Pilot, Saiful Azam, shot down three IAF jets and no one, not even arab pilots, ever scored that many israeli kills.




I don't know of any Jordanian or Arab participation in indo-Pak wars, if you do know then provide source and information, because as far as i'm concerned, Arabs have always maintained cordial ties with india, but i'm sure you will get a taste of indian backstabbing first hand, don't believe me? Ask the Iranians.


But Palestinians say that it was Jordan who murdered Palestinians, which is why they call it Black September, at least that is what a Palestinian told me.

The Men Behind Yahya in the Indo
A Palestinian told you! Oh really!, what a credible source of information!
I have sources (books in Arabic) if you read Arabic I will be glad to post them here. 27000 out of Jordanian army (55000) were Palestinians, the head of Jordanian intelligence at that time was Palestinian Adnan Abu Udeh born in Nablus, Palestine, many other high rank officials were Palestinians. There were Jordanian Fedaen as well, so you can't call it Jordanians vs Palestinians, its a civil war that could happen anywhere in the world.

 

[King Solomon]

Look at this guy well. Here is the Iran's mentality.

Ehm sir? Who killed your nuclear physicians?And what did you do about it?

Iran is sponsoring Hezbollah, which has killed 10 times more IDF terrorists than the numbers of physician killed.

While you cannot do anything but cry when your likes are mercilessly murdered by them

I find it really funny how people here are suggesting that Turkey is a "role model" for other Muslim countries.

For a country that is part of a defence pact which has slaughtered Muslims the world over (including Pakistanis), and who also follows the diktat of the Western powers, the same western powers who will bend to any extent to please their spoiled child israel, how can it be a role model for other Muslim countries?

Seriously!! Has the world gone mad and so low that we see a country who tows the line of foreign powers as our "role model"???

Ha ha, funny joke of the century, if there was a Guinness book of World Famous Jokes, this would be amongst the top ten!

The part i like about them is their model of secularism. unlike many other muslim countries there is little religious extremism in turkey. At present they are in a moderate path. Other than that, it is a shame that they are in NATO.

Since Turkey has the Russian bear on the north. She cant afford to get out of Nato. There is no need for it too.

I see. How about an alliance with Russia/China, instead of being on the alliance which killed 2 million+ muslims and is waging a continuous war on Islam?

Your and other turks who support Turkey's inclusion of NATO surprised me. I supposed most of religious Turks (not Atheist turks) would have resentments against their membership of NATO but you and others seem to have none. If you are atheist like many of them here then I dont mind but if you are religious then it is something to worry about.

Iran is a Russian puppet,dont play the anti-imperialist game here.

Ask Russia to the Chechens(aka Muslims)

You cannot draw parallel like that. Chechenya is a local separatist movement just like your PKK. How about the no. of PKK (who are also muslims)you murdered?

 

[Developereo]

Turkey can't lead Muslims. And we don't need a leader anyway,

Please note we are not talking about anyone 'leading' anybody, but a role model. A role model is useful to see what strategies worked for others and are worth emulating. There is much to learn from the way Turkey (and Malaysia) have stepped into modernity while being Islamic. I agree that Turkey has sacrificed some freedoms in the past by over-reacting to the fear of Islamists, but they are rebounding to the center, which is good to see.

Economically it's a model for everyone, even Pakistan, but religiously a model for hardly anyone. Don't forget they're "secular" not Muslim. It's like saying the USA is a model for Christian countries

We need to stop being obsessed by religion -- on either extreme of pro- or anti-religion. No 'mahdi' is going to come from the sky and magically save the day -- we have to solve our problems the old fashioned way: using hard work, like everyone else on the planet.

I don't think a reasonable person would deny KSA great influence nowadays

The main thing that differentiates developed countries from developing countries is that the former provide value-added services. A developed country buys iron from the developing country for 10 cents, transforms it into steel, and sells it back for 1 dollar. When the developing country runs out of iron, they are done. However, the developed country will simply switch to another supplier and remain in business.

Most Muslim countries are basically providers of raw materials. Whatever 'influence' they have is because of accidents of nature, either because of their geographic location (Pakistan) or resources underground (Arabs). Even these resources were found and are processed by foreign technology - these countries themselves have contributed little to their own prosperity.

This is where countries like Iran and Malaysia stand out, because they have at least used their oil wealth to build indigenous capabilities. Other countries, like Turkey, have progressed without the oil bonanza. It is in that sense that I see them as role models, although I absolutely agree that the Iranian mullahs are just as crazy and dangerous as the Arab sheiks. However, KSA is finally starting to see the light and taking some good steps, which is why I wrote that they may yet save the day.

 

[mehmeTcc]

Turkey must be a country like Switzerland. An example, Turkish goods have access to the Western markets, thanks to our good relations with Europe and America while Turkey is a Muslim-majority country, we have access to Middle eastern markets too. We must secure our current position and become a robust economy like France and Germany.

Then we can think about this leadership thing.