Ticonderoga, Arleigh Burke vs Slava, Sovremenny (or Udaloy)

[zon95]

The problem is that the modern warfare is not about one on one duel, the AB is the bodyguard of the supercarrier battlegroup that provides an excellent air defence system.

The F-18E with a combat radius of 1000km would mostly likely reach the Sovremenny DDG before it can hit supercarrier battlegroup including their AB bodyguards.

BTW, another reason that PLAN hates Sovremenny is because its propulsion is steam turbine, PLAN largely favors the gas turbine DDG over a steam turbine one.

But you can not deny it is still the backbone of the Chinese Navy with good radar and missile range far.

These are its limitations of Sovremenny :

With a powerful armament, Sovremenny is a formidable warships at sea. A worthy opponent to any enemy that must be respected. However, this kind does not necessarily destroyer is not without weaknesses.

First of all, this type frigates are designed to reduce the exposed features infrared. The ship served in the Navy stand out with a black column of smoke high load when operating. This point has been overcome in part on variations 956EM exports to China.

Radar cross section of relatively large vessels with high levels of infrared radiation, this type frigates easily be detected from a distance. This is a disadvantage when faced with other modern frigates. Therefore the main task is to attack surface ships, anti-submarine weapons and air defense ships only secondary.

However, if the same coordinate combat destroyer Type 052Cs, Sovremenny would not worry too much about the air defense. And the only dedicated anti-ship surface ships. Then, P-270 Moskit would be "problems" with tough defense systems on Japanese war ships.

I acknowledge that you are right, modern naval no single combat however we are comparing one by one

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

But you can not deny it is still the backbone of the Chinese Navy with good radar and missile range far.

These are its limitations:

With a powerful armament, Sovremenny is a formidable warships at sea. A worthy opponent to any enemy that must be respected. However, this kind does not necessarily destroyer is not without weaknesses.

First of all, this type frigates are designed to reduce the exposed features infrared. The ship served in the Navy stand out with a black column of smoke high load when operating. This point has been overcome in part on variations 956EM exports to China.

Radar cross section of relatively large vessels with high levels of infrared radiation, this type frigates easily be detected from a distance. This is a disadvantage when faced with other modern frigates. Therefore the main task is to attack surface ships, anti-submarine weapons and air defense ships only secondary.

However, if the same coordinate combat destroyer Type 052Cs, Sovremenny would not worry too much about the air defense. And the only dedicated anti-ship surface ships. Then, P-270 Moskit would be "problems" with tough defense systems on Japanese war ships.

Sovremenny was the backbone of PLAN's East Sea Fleet before the induction of Type 054A.

If it is the backbone of the current PLAN, then PLAN would pursue more Sovremenny instead of building its own Aegis DDGs.

 

[applesauce]

well the sovremenny class actually has a pretty powerful anti ship load. unfortunently that isnt too useful because modern combat, especially against carrier, take place outside of it range usually. so for the sovremenny to be useful it must close the distance which is pretty difficult considering it does not utilized stealth shaping and has fairly limited defense against planes. however in a knife fight it would be devastating. so one use for it would be to send it to disputed islands to show the flag or areas where the PLAN has air supiriority

 

[Penguin]

Russian Sovremenny Class Destroyer was designed to seek out and destroy ships Arleigh Burke Class (Aegis) Guided Missile Destroyers of the US.

Really?

Sovremenny is essentially intended for amphibious assaults support and anti-shipping operations. The project began in the late 1960s when it was becoming obvious in the Soviet Navy that naval guns still had an important role particularly in support of amphibious landings, but existing gun cruisers and destroyers were showing their age. In 1971 a go-ahead was given for the Severnaya design bureau to design "a ship capable of supporting amphibious landings". At the same time, the US Navy was constructing new large Spruance class multirole destroyers. To respond to this new threat, Project 956 was updated with new air defence suite and new, powerful 3M80 anti-ship missiles. Although the Soviet Navy had largely moved to gas turbine propulsion for its new warships, steam turbines were selected instead for Project 956: partly because production of naval gas turbines would have been insufficient for entire program. Lead ship of the class, Sovremenny was laid down in 1976 and commissioned in 1980. In 1980, the U.S. Navy initiated design studies with seven contractors for a new destroyer. By 1983 the number of competitors had been reduced to three: Bath Iron Works, Todd Shipyards and Ingalls Shipbuilding. On 3 April 1985 Bath Iron Works received a US$321.9 million contract to build the first of class, USS Arleigh Burke. Gibbs & Cox was awarded the contract to be the lead ship design agent. She was laid down by the Bath Iron Works at Bath, Maine, on 6 December 1988, and launched on 16 September 1989 by Mrs. Arleigh Burke.

The Slava class design started in the late 1960s, based around use of the P-500 Bazalt missile, and was intended as a less expensive conventionally powered alternative to the nuclear-powered Kirov class battlecruiser. As there was nothing revolutionary about the design of the class western observers felt they were created as a hedge against the failure of the more radical Kirov class. The Kirov class's main weapons are 20 P-700 Granit (SS-N-19 Shipwreck) missiles mounted in deck, designed to engage large surface targets. Air defense is provided by twelve octuple S-300F launchers. The appearance of the Kirov class played a key role in the recommissioning of the Iowa-class battleships by the United States Navy in the 1980s, which underscores Kirov's and Slava's role was primarily anti-surface.

The Ticonderoga class of guided-missile cruisers is a class of warships in the U.S. Navy, first ordered and authorized in FY 1978. The class uses phased-array radar and was originally planned as a class of destroyers. However, the increased combat capability offered by the Aegis combat system and the AN/SPY-1 radar system was used to justify the change of the classification from DDG (guided missile destroyer) to CG (guided-missile cruiser) shortly before the keels were laid down for the Ticonderoga and the Yorktown. Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruisers are multirole warships.The Ticonderoga–class introduced a new generation of guided missile warships based on the AEGIS phased array radar that his capable of simultaneously scanning for threats, tracking targets, and guiding missiles to interception. When they were designed, they had the most powerful electronic warfare equipment in the U.S. Navy, as well as the most advanced underwater surveillance system. These ships were one of the first classes of warships to be built in modules, rather than being assembled from the bottom up.In addition to the added radar capability, the Ticonderoga-class ships built after the Thomas S. Gates included two Mark 41 Vertical Launching Systems (or VLS). The original five ships (Ticonderoga, Yorktown, Vincennes, Valley Forge, and Thomas S. Gates) had Mark 26 twin-arm launchers that limited their missile capacity to a total of 88 missiles, and that could not fire the Tomahawk missile. After the end of the Cold War, the lower capabilities of the original five warships limited them to duties close to the home waters of the United States. Ticonderoga was launched 25 April 1981 and commissioned 22 January 1983

The Udaloy I class are a series of gasturbine powered anti-submarine destroyers. Udaloy II is a multirole variant, incorporating 130mm guns and Moskit from Sovrmenny. They have limited AAW capability (Kashtan 10km + Klinok 15 km). dates to the 1970s when it was concluded that it was too costly to build large-displacement, multi-role combatants. The concept of a specialized surface ship was developed by Soviet designers. Two different types of warships were laid down which were designed by the Severnoye Design Bureau: Project 956 destroyer and Project 1155 large anti-submarine ship. The Udaloy class are generally considered the Soviet equivalent of the American Spruance class destroyers. dates to the 1970s when it was concluded that it was too costly to build large-displacement, multi-role combatants. The concept of a specialized surface ship was developed by Soviet designers. Two different types of warships were laid down which were designed by the Severnoye Design Bureau: Project 956 destroyer and Project 1155 large anti-submarine ship. The Udaloy class are generally considered the Soviet equivalent of the American Spruance class destroyers.

 

[jhungary]

People have already forgot what HMS Sheffield and HMS Coventry taught us during Falkland War.

A destroyer alone is useless, when you talk about Naval Warfare, you need to pair the Destroyer to a Frigate and you get the High-Lo Effect on incoming Air Threats.

Problem with today destroyer is, when you go thru all the training to become a sailor, the moment you get on-board a destroyer, the CO will tell you, you are just a cannon fodder. You are either at the edge for Picket duty or designed to eat the strike intended for your carrier or Ground troop.......

 

[king cobra]

Am curious as to why you did not include the Kirov class cruiser?

Open image in new window for hi-res....

because this ship is dumb. and want retire.

 

[Penguin]

People have already forgot what HMS Sheffield and HMS Coventry taught us during Falkland War.

A destroyer alone is useless, when you talk about Naval Warfare, you need to pair the Destroyer to a Frigate and you get the High-Lo Effect on incoming Air Threats.

Problem with today destroyer is, when you go thru all the training to become a sailor, the moment you get on-board a destroyer, the CO will tell you, you are just a cannon fodder. You are either at the edge for Picket duty or designed to eat the strike intended for your carrier or Ground troop.......

Well no: Tpe 42 Coventry was paired to Type 22 Broadsword and still got hit (cause it was manouvring of type 42 - which crossed the bow of the type 22 - that made Broadsoword break radar lock, while her Sea Dart was useless close in). Sheffield on the other hand was operating alone, sent out to the edge of the perimeter on radar picket duty, to relieve Coventry. Since then a lot has been done about close in defences. Long range AAW has also substantially improved.

Even when part of an escort screen, most of the time ships sail many (tens of) miles apart (effectively 'alone', but for carrier based aircover and long range AAW missiles)...

 

[jhungary]

Well no: Tpe 42 Coventry was paired to Type 22 Broadsword and still got hit (cause it was manouvring of type 42 - which crossed the bow of the type 22 - that made Broadsoword break radar lock, while her Sea Dart was useless close in). Sheffield on the other hand was operating alone, sent out to the edge of the perimeter on radar picket duty, to relieve Coventry. Since then a lot has been done about close in defences. Long range AAW has also substantially improved.

Even when part of an escort screen, most of the time ships sail many (tens of) miles apart (effectively 'alone', but for carrier based aircover and long range AAW missiles)...

actually, Coventry should not had been sunk, if the Royal Navy have trained on Intership-Operability, do bear in mind Broadsword can lock on to the incoming and thus saving the Coventry, if not the Coventry finally turn the same side as Broadsword thus blocking the lock of Broadsword (They should be turning in a different direction)

The lost of Coventry should never be chalked under the Hi-Lo partnership but communication problem. So what I said effectively still stand. Destroyer alone is totally useless. They need smaller ship for mutual support.

 

[zon95]

Still the same old script with AN/SPY-1 radar heights but good for dealing with aircraft, missiles launched from enemy aircraft (Su-33, Kh-35), but with the difficulty of skimming Sea , flying low (Ka-31, P-270) but not the radar Slava mineral-em, so this will be the face-off, the faster the missile anti-ship that will win, because the two ships are easy to identify detection. However, the range is up to 550-700km P-500/1000, but weakness is not dependent on Ka-27/31 while though Ticonderoga radar system, Aegis anti-ICBM attacks for each satellite, but relatively poor ability to anti-ship (probably because of the American mindset focused on aircraft carrier fleet, allocated to F18/35 capability anti-ship). If the individual match Sovremenny ,Slava will win easily before Arleigh Burke, Ticonderoga as a natural part of the air defense side in favor of a strike fleet, the enemy carrier.

 

[Penguin]

actually, Coventry should not had been sunk, if the Royal Navy have trained on Intership-Operability, do bear in mind Broadsword can lock on to the incoming and thus saving the Coventry, if not the Coventry finally turn the same side as Broadsword thus blocking the lock of Broadsword (They should be turning in a different direction)

The lost of Coventry should never be chalked under the Hi-Lo partnership but communication problem. So what I said effectively still stand. Destroyer alone is totally useless. They need smaller ship for mutual support.

Which is what I pointed out: had not COventry crossed the bow of the consort ship, she may well have been saved by the Type 22. The point being that Type 42 had no proper close in defences of its own and so was dependent on another ship.

So, how would this so-called lesson apply today? E.g. on the Dutch LCF or on an Arleigh Burke: with both Standard and (Evolved) Sea Sparrow as well as CIWS....

 

[Super Falcon]

i will go russian naval arm from subs to aircrfats they are specialls in making best naval weapon

 

[zon95]

From forum chinesedefence

Project 956/EM Sovremenny Class Missile Destroyer

The PLA Navy purchased two unfinished ex-Russian Navy Project 956 (Sovremenny class) missile destroyers in 1996. Renamed as Hangzhou (136) and Fuzhou (137), the two destroyers were delivered to China in 1999 and 2000 respectively. China signed a contract with Russia in 2002 to purchase additional two ships worth US$1.4 billion. These are reportedly the improved Project 956EM variant with enhanced weapon systems and sensors. The first ship of the second pair was delivered to China on 28 December 2005.

Programme

Under a September 1996 agreement Russia sold two uncompleted Project 956A Sovremenny class missile destroyers to China. They are hull #18, ex-Soviet Navy Vazhny and later renamed as Yekaterinbugr (698) by the Russian Navy, with two-thirds of building complete, and hull #19, ex-Russian Navy Alexandr Nevsky with only one-third complete. Both ships were laid down in the late 1980s by the North Shipyard in St. Petersburg and their construction was suspended in 1995 due to lack of funds.

The Sovremenny class was originally designed in the 1970s by the Soviet Union as a counter to the U.S. Navy¡¦s surface warships, in particular the aircraft carrier battle groups and the Aegis cruisers. The displacement of Sovremenny class exceeds that of most Chinese indigenous surface warships, indicative of the overall improvement in combat potential. The ship also has longer endurance compared to the Chinese indigenous destroyers.

The Sovremenny class provides a balanced platform that vastly exceeds the capabilities of most Chinese domestic designs. The PLA Navy hopes to use this class to fulfil the gap in its combat capability caused by the delay in developing indigenous designs. The first ship Hangzhou (136) was completed and delivered to the PLA Navy in December 1999. The second ship Fuzhou (137) began its sea trial in 1999 and was handed to the PLAN in December 2000. Both ships are deployed by the PLAN East Sea Fleet and stationed Zhoushan naval base. China received 50 3M-80E Moskit anti-ship missiles by mid-2000. The first test launch took place in 2001.

In 2002 China ordered another two Sovremenny class destroyers from Russia, for a total of 4 ships in service by 2010. The two ships are said to be the modified Project 956EM variant, which will be equipped with improved weapon systems and sensors. The first ship (pennant number 138) was launched in April 2004 and was delivered to China on 28 December 2005. The second ship (pennant number 139) was launched in July 2004 but the scheduled delivery date was postponed due to a fire accident that took place onboard the ship in April 2005. China also reportedly holds the option to order another two Project 956EM destroyers in the future.

 

[Penguin]

The original Sovremenny

 

[Alienware]

The AEGIS is without a doubt the best ship based defense system(followed by the System on board the Daring class DDG). However, the extreme speed of Soviet ASMs and the sheer number in a swarm launch tactic generally means that some will get through the missile later.. and one or two will get past the CIWS system..

And usually one missile is enough to cripple a ship. @Penguin @Capt.Popeye

Both AEGIS and the UK/French PAAMS are designed to counter "saturated attacks" of high performance, supersonic anti-ship missiles and aircraft. No Soviet missile would penetrate the defense systems of ANY AEGIS or PAAMS equipped warship.

I would put PAAMS slightly above AEGIS in terms of air-defense capabilities - however AEGIS will regain parity or even exceed PAAMs in the near future (upgrades etc).

Apart from AEGIS and PAAMS there is no other naval air-defense system that even comes close.

The Chinese type 052C and future 052D destroyers are equipped with advanced AESA multi-function radars and long-range SAMs to provide similar capabilities of Western AEGIS/PAAMS systems. But we can safely assume that the Chinese "AEGIS" is still inferior to the Western systems. The Indian Navy is also developing its own "AEGIS" system in the new P-15A (Kolkata-class) and P-15B destroyers. But again, like the Chinese system it is still inferior to Western AEGIS and PAAMS. Germany and the Netherlands have also developed their own "AEGIS" like systems.

The Russians as of yet have not developed any capable naval air defense systems and their fleet will still be vulnerable to anti-ship missiles like the Harpoon or Exocet.

 

[applesauce]

Both AEGIS and the UK/French PAAMS are designed to counter "saturated attacks" of high performance, supersonic anti-ship missiles and aircraft. No Soviet missile would penetrate the defense systems of ANY AEGIS or PAAMS equipped warship.

its a very good system alright, but not invincible, if youre onboard a aegis ship and 10 or more asm comes for one aegis ship from different flight paths, you are virtually guaranteed to get hit by at least one.

The Russians as of yet have not developed any capable naval air defense systems and their fleet will still be vulnerable to anti-ship missiles like the Harpoon or Exocet.

from a technical stand point, the russians should be able to build one given that the 051c is based primarily on russian systems and even carrys the s-300 naval version. as for why they havent built any... i have no idea, money problems maybe?