Thrifty at Fifty: PAF Mirages.

[Windjammer]

So your relying on a small budget plane from China's third tier to takrv


Your f16 are compromised period.

No USA support makes your falcons toothless long term . We all saw the huge handicap in the sanctions in later 90S

As for thunders taking on rafale flankers good luck

These are just your wishful thinking, lets hope for your sake the Indian war planners don't live in same retarded state......your worry should be that despite your claims of making the SU-30 in India, it's only some 60% operational due to spare shortages and the latest addition to your collection, the MiG-29K was once struggling at less than 20% operational.
IAF is the least worry for the PAF because unlike the IAF, the PAF doesn't have credibility issues neither does it needs to indulge into an image building exercise.

 

[litman]

Asghar Khan was air chief and he was made on resign by Gen Ayyub Khan in July of 1965 because he didn't want to participate in the air operations... Then Nur Khan took over and he did an excellent job. So stop saying BS about Yahya Khan or any other ... Asghar Khan was a traitor. It was not up to him to decide whether he wanted to join the war or not...He had to follow the commands.
What saddened me that he was given a full official burial on this death by PAF.

then you must also know that when nur khan became air chief and came to know about the designs of PA he was about to resign on the first day of assumption of command. he was also against operation gibraltor. he was of the opinion that this operation will lead to a full scale war and he proved to be right. asghar khan and his indian counter part agreed(although not in black and white) not to get their air forces involved in rann of kutch so as to prevent the escalation of a battle into a full scale war. it is very easy to call someone as a traitor but it is very difficult to take tough decisions when the lives of thousands of countrymen are at stake. war is never a good thing and all measures should be taken in order to prevent it but once it is imposed then enemy should be taught a lesson which PAF did in both past wars. john fricker in his book battle for pak mentions that when the war began PAF was the only service which was fully ready to fight a full scale war and the credit of this readiness went to asghar khan. nur khan was in PIA for many years and it was asghar khan who trained his small air force into a lethal fighting unit. and something about ayub khan he was sacked as lt col by his superiors while his unit was in burma. in an interview nur khan (the man who saved pak in 65) openly said that you people take pride in 65 war while i take it as a matter of shame.another hero of 65 sajjad haider calls 65 war as a stupid senseless war started by PA. gen talat masood a well known analyst admitted on TV that the performance of PAF was the best among all the services in 65. the credit of which mainly goes to nur khan but no one can create a force in just 2 weeks . that's why nur khann himself gave the credit to asghar khan.

 

[war&peace]

then you must also know that when nur khan became air chief and came to know about the designs of PA he was about to resign on the first day of assumption of command. he was also against operation gibraltor. he was of the opinion that this operation will lead to a full scale war and he proved to be right. asghar khan and his indian counter part agreed(although not in black and white) not to get their air forces involved in rann of kutch so as to prevent the escalation of a battle into a full scale war. it is very easy to call someone as a traitor but it is very difficult to take tough decisions when the lives of thousands of countrymen are at stake. war is never a good thing and all measures should be taken in order to prevent it but once it is imposed then enemy should be taught a lesson which PAF did in both past wars. john fricker in his book battle for pak mentions that when the war began PAF was the only service which was fully ready to fight a full scale war and the credit of this readiness went to asghar khan. nur khan was in PIA for many years and it was asghar khan who trained his small air force into a lethal fighting unit. and something about ayub khan he was sacked as lt col by his superiors while his unit was in burma. in an interview nur khan (the man who saved pak in 65) openly said that you people take pride in 65 war while i take it as a matter of shame.another hero of 65 sajjad haider calls 65 war as a stupid senseless war started by PA. gen talat masood a well known analyst admitted on TV that the performance of PAF was the best among all the services in 65. the credit of which mainly goes to nur khan but no one can create a force in just 2 weeks . that's why nur khann himself gave the credit to asghar khan.

Ayyub Khan himself was a strange character and I don't understand one thing why did he went for 1965 against Indian aggression while he refused to join China in 1962 which could have solved the Kashmir issue. That was the best chance. There were no nuclear weapons in the subcontinent and Indian military was destroyed by China..for Pakistan it would have been a simple walk over.

 

[litman]

Ayyub Khan himself was a strange character and I don't understand one thing why did he went for 1965 against Indian aggression war while he refused to join China in 1962 which could have solved the Kashmir issue. That was the best chance. There were no nuclear weapons in the subcontinent and India military was destroyed by China..for Pakistan it would have been a simple walk over.

absolutely. even qudrat ullah shahab mentioned this fact in his book shahab nama.

 

[Storm Force]

These are just your wishful thinking, lets hope for your sake the Indian war planners don't live in same retarded state......your worry should be that despite your claims of making the SU-30 in India, it's only some 60% operational due to spare shortages and the latest addition to your collection, the MiG-29K was once struggling at less than 20% operational.
IAF is the least worry for the PAF because unlike the IAF, the PAF doesn't have credibility issues neither does it needs to indulge into an image building exercise.

Wishful thinking is pretending a cheap budget lightweight fighter can cut it in a future war against an airborne bristling with mki rafale mirage2000 and S400 and phalcon awacs.

Pretending on some mythical training or perceived incompetence of a much richer opponent

 

[Windjammer]

Wishful thinking is pretending a cheap budget lightweight fighter can cut it in a future war against an airborne bristling with mki rafale mirage2000 and S400 and phalcon awacs.

Typical mentality of washing the soap before hands, the likes of MKI and MK2 have already been compromised, we will talk about the others as and when they become operational in the IAF.

Pretending on some mythical training or perceived incompetence of a much richer opponent

Mythical training or no, but certainly no cricket and richer in quantity is certainly no match for proven and acknowledged quality.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

@Windjammer is it true once a sanction prone compromised obsolete F-16 locked supa dupa Ultra rich 60% availability rate Flying tuck and raptor of east in Aerial engagement?

 

[Windjammer]

@Windjammer is it true once a sanction prone compromised obsolete F-16 locked supa dupa Ultra rich 60% availability rate Flying tuck and raptor of east in Aerial engagement?

Yup that was some years back but more recently the JF-17 has been active on the border, however unlike Indians PAF doesn't make a song and dance about it.

 

[Hamza913]

Wishful thinking is pretending a cheap budget lightweight fighter can cut it in a future war against an airborne bristling with mki rafale mirage2000 and S400 and phalcon awacs.

Those Mirages are armed with pretty good weaponry, such as Raad missiles. Also, don't forget your air force still uses old 3rd gen planes such as the MiG-21 as well.

We will be using mostly of F-16's, JF-17's and FC-31's in the nearby future. 18 of those F-16's are block 52, another 45 have been upgraded to block 50 standard, and the remaining 13 are ADF. As for the JF-17, block 3 will have an AESA radar among other major improvements, and we can continue to upgrade block 1 and 2 to be of similar capability to block 3. We will also be further producing even more blocks of Thunder, and continually upgrading them (they are our toys, which gives us more control). There's also the option for more 4th gen planes from China (e.g the J-10). As for the FC-31's, we will induct them in small numbers initially, enlarging the size of the fleet as time goes on. We also have our own 5th gen fighter in the works (Project AZM). Let's not even get into our higher serviceability and overall better pilots as has been historically proven.

We have HQ-9 and HQ-16 air defence systems, and can certainly acquire more of them or buy more advanced systems if need be. We also have missiles such as Raad or Babur to strike enemy air defences among other targets.

In terms of AWACS, we still have more of them than you and can buy more if need be.

If worst comes to worst, nuclear strike is always an option, so don't test us.

We'll be fine.

 

[Armchair]

PAF Mirages have relatively high availability rate, because of a simple, proven design.

They are BVR equiped. EW equiped. AND HOBS equiped. At this moment, they would even give the F-16s a run for the money.

They have a solid radar and R-Darter / MAA-1A Piranha. Combined they are deadly. Good luck to anything that treats them as "trash" or whatever.

Indian MKI have very low serviceability rate.
Rafales still not delivered, let alone in operational service.

A missile does not know what aircraft it flew out of. Whether from a Mirage or a Eurofighter. A missile only knows its target. There is no psycho-ops with a missile. You can't tell it "oh you flew out of an old Mirage, you're not going to do too well, sorry just give up to mighty India". The missile will just continue and blow up your #$$.

But an MKI sitting in its hangar with all its list of accolades will not be of any use, and its Russian missiles are dated and often found to be duds. About the reliability of Indian egos I'd say.

India's giant number of MiGs are useless and a danger to its own pilots. In any case, the MiG-21s India has, have such little range that they are only used defensively to protect Indian airspace. Meaning useless against PAF's defensive war.

You don't win wars by wasting billions. Nor by buying the next super-duper weapon. Otherwise Vietnam, Afghanistan, Syria would have long been won. Its like comparing a US high school drop out with the latest gear, M-4, NVG, etc and saying he'd beat up an Afghan veteran easy, because his AK costs a pittance.

 

[airmarshal]

It seems a harsh evaluation but the more I analyse the situation the more I lean to the similar conclusion: a deliberate attempt to keep PAF backward and behind the rivals despite getting a lot of opportunities to get some of the best A/Cs.

How was it deliberate? And which aircraft are we talking about here? F-18? Eurofighter? Rafale? Gripen?

 

[khanmubashir]

So your relying on a small budget plane from China's third tier to takrv


Your f16 are compromised period.

No USA support makes your falcons toothless long term . We all saw the huge handicap in the sanctions in later 90S

As for thunders taking on rafale flankers good luck

R there sanction??
No

F16 we're still flying in 90s and soon we gonna replace em with fifth gen jets like j31 tfx and these would be the tip of spear and jf 17 the compliment

 

[war&peace]

How was it deliberate? And which aircraft are we talking about here? F-18? Eurofighter? Rafale? Gripen?

Well you will need to read the whole chain of posts / discussion to understand it. We were talking about Rafale... since once it was on offer to PAF and they just wasted their own time and also the time of French hosts and in the end French got so tired that they opened up an office in Pakistan so that PAF people just don't come to their country to take a stroll on Champs-Élysées on our taxes. They were not interested in buying but playing this game to fool the establishment. And they sabotaged not only the deal for Rafales but also opportunities for a lot of testing and EW package for JF-17.
I know the details of tests and where and when those tests were planned.. China lacked those facilities. @MastanKhan

 

[araz]

Wishful thinking is pretending a cheap budget lightweight fighter can cut it in a future war against an airborne bristling with mki rafale mirage2000 and S400 and phalcon awacs.

Pretending on some mythical training or perceived incompetence of a much richer opponent

Your mettle is the 59 negative ratings you have had and it reflects the choice of words you have utilkzed to get the message across.
Cheap------- Economical.
Budget -------- Unknown to HAL, so how much have you spent so far on trying to make the Tejas so far and now talking of its next iteration!
Light weight------- So is this a short coming or a realistic appraisal of the fact that we are a country with a small land mass and our main adversary is next door to us. By the way is Sweden a country of morons bythe same standard as they seem to have adopted the same idea( and before you say anything more I have taken into account that their product preceeded ours by years. And by the way why are you trying to design a similar fighter(NOTshould have come somewhere in there!!!!)or is Tejas now a medium weight fighter.
Mr Storm(in a tea cup)Force(with a spent preceeding it). You guys are not realizing the simple fact that the simple end point of this useless debate is a nuclear exchange. The more one party exceeds the capabilities of the other the lower the nuclear threshold. This is the crux of the matter that all of you jingoistic morons from both sides who have nothing better than to sit on the net all day long with nothing better than to boast about how you blasted the other party today only for the other one to come back and hang your shorts out to dry. There is no constrjctive debate and the end point is serious people get bored and move on.
JFT is a Pakistani venture(with generous Chinese help) and a first step in the establishment of an aviation industry. It takes into account our industrial development, our suppliers, our needs and most important our budget which is even smaller than your IQ. It fits the bill for us and we are happy with it. It is not there to have a Shahi Dangal with the MKI or the Rafale or for that matter any otber fancy toys that you can buy. However, its capabilities are what we have lacked and given the time and the necessity it will give a good account of itself. Ecause it is cheap it can be mass produced by us and unlike your 300million Rafale the loss of q couple will not be that disasterous to us. So you go and sit happily and drool over the Rafale and the MKI, and let us be content with our fighter.
Regards.
A

 

[Storm Force]

These are just your wishful thinking, lets hope for your sake the Indian war planners don't live in same retarded state......your worry should be that despite your claims of making the SU-30 in India, it's only some 60% operational due to spare shortages and the latest addition to your collection, the MiG-29K was once struggling at less than 20% operational.
IAF is the least worry for the PAF because unlike the IAF, the PAF doesn't have credibility issues neither does it needs to indulge into an image building exercise.

I keep busting you buddy ........... But you keep coming back for more

PAF credibility was tested AND busted in 1999 when your PAF refused to engage the IAF bombing your army to smithereens . How many times has the USA violated your airspace with drone strikes and marine incursions for your air force to have no idea where and what hit them.

You banking on low a low serviceability rate saving PAF bacon in future.........WHAT YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND the very reason indian CAG reports are published and highlighted is to eradicate these deficiencies in the first place

FYI over 200 mki took part in GAGAN SHAKTI last two weeks .

When you have a $60 billion defense budget you resolve these issues....

YOU EVER heard of a CAG report in Pakistan military .............ERRRR NO .... YOU know why .. you people hide your real situation.