Threat to Pakistan emanates from " INDIA managed " Afghan soil ; generals told

[Taimoor Khan]

It is for a long time dude.

You are giving him more credit then he deserve.

ummm, there are a number of Pakistani deoband that are part of Afghan Taliban. They are a part of Kashmir Mujahideen too, what evidence is there that RAW is exercising Pakistani or Indian deoband to spread there terrorism.

You are generalising the sect where I am talking about instituation. Issue is the Deoband itself in India. not the sect. Mullah desiel is the extenion of this influence. Which needs to be uprooted.

My version of post 9/11 events does not conflict with this, a team of our deoband scholars met with Mullah Omar, they feared that war with USA will spill a lot of blood in Afghanistan (which did happened), Mullah Omer responded that they have given asylum to Usama and now Quranic order is to, "either not give an asylum or if given do everything to to ensure his safety even if you have to sacrifice your complete army".

That maybe the case, but in reality, its the powers to be who have got more influence then some bunch of Mullahs. My version of Gen Mahmood is correct and the way Mushy screwed up things later.

 

[The Eagle]

Then why do those terrorists chant “Allahu Akbar” every time before carrying out a terrorist attack ? And later they justify their acts by quoting Books (Hadith and Fatwas by great Islamic Scholars of the past) considered Holy by the majority of Muslims ... Why in denial ? Let's face it bro .. Let's be honest... Islam, as interpreted by the majority of Muslims, DOES have a problem right now ..

Very simple to understand, where the one wants to create a reason in sunnis to believe and hate the Shias, will be chanting Ya Ali while killing the sunni or if a terrorist want to make believe the society that it is done by Hindu will chant the slogans of Hindus to let the audience be witnessed that was done by a Hindu and same goes to every where. A great tactics adopted by mercenaries hired by International War Lords. Those chanting are nothing but orchestrated by masters, such people fall into trap due to the limited knowledge of the faith/religion, otherwise, Islam does not permit violence at all. They justify the same by Fatwas where it fits their bill and a weak knowledge believes without going into details and knowing the fact. They can also speak about fatwas whereas Islam clearly prohibits the terrorism, injustice and violence and secure the rights of minorities etc at all but No because many have to sell their beans and earn which is very easy by defaming the one in front of other(s).

Don't turn the thread into sect debate further, I still advice all here. Thanks

 

[M. Sarmad]

Very simple to understand, where the one wants to create a reason in sunnis to believe and hate the Shias, will be chanting Ya Ali while killing the sunni or if a terrorist want to make believe the society that it is done by Hindu will chant the slogans of Hindus to let the audience be witnessed that was done by a Hindu and same goes to every where. A great tactics adopted by mercenaries hired by International War Lords. Those chanting are nothing but orchestrated by masters, such people fall into trap due to the limited knowledge of the faith/religion, otherwise, Islam does not permit violence at all. They justify the same by Fatwas where it fits their bill and a weak knowledge believes without going into details and knowing the fact. They can also speak about fatwas whereas Islam clearly prohibits the terrorism, injustice and violence and secure the rights of minorities etc at all but No because many have to sell their beans and earn which is very easy by defaming the one in front of other(s).

But why do only Muslims (and that too belonging to a certain school of thought) fall in to that trap ??

Why don't we see followers of other religions (or sects) carry out similar terrorism activities ?

Where does the problem lie ?

Don't turn the thread into sect debate further, I still advice all here. Thanks

What sectarian debate, mate ?

Almost all terrorists in Pakistan follow the Deoband School of thought. They are anti-state. This is an undeniable fact. We don't have any problem with their religious beliefs. But we do have a problem with their anti-state activities

 

[Taimoor Khan]

How can you say that the sect itself is not the problem when 82% of those belonging to Deobandi madrassas see the Taliban as a model for Islamizing Pakistan ? Or do you think that such beliefs have been 'instilled' into them by the Indian RAW ?

First of all, I am intrigued as to why you left out "Mullah of Qom" from the discussion where I specifically mentioned them? Correct me if I am wrong, but I am senseing some sectranian BS here.

It has been mentioend that India is using its Deoband to extend its desgin inside Pakistan and the region while on the other hand Mullah of Qom are using our local misguided shia to extended their dreams of persian empire.

You cannot act against just one without leaving the other. otherwise it is disaster waiting to happen which we can ill afford. Plug needs to be pulled from both side.

 

[Hellfire]

@The Eagle Very eloquently put. We have a saying in India (and I can attest that majority of Indians agree to it; save for the rhetoric which you see in PDF) "Terror has no religion". And you have said the same. Couldn't agree with you more in your posts.


@Azlan Haider You will be engaged further at an opportune time by me, I am going to enjoy learning few things from you and revisiting the facts which get obscured under the usual non-sense and rants. I think you and I are also on same page as @The Eagle who is, as far as I can make out, cautioning regarding the immaturity of people in ability to grasp and appreciate the topic at the level you have delved into without getting inflammed. Hence, his posts. It is, in my opinion, a matter for discussion in Senior's Café under strict control. A purely intellectual discourse.

Excellent posts sir @The Eagle @Azlan Haider - a refreshing breath from the usual rants.

Gudnite to you both.

PS: @Azlan Haider We will continue to disagree on Kashmir ... LOL

@Joe Shearer Tagging you. An interesting and sensible thread. Where are you, sir?

 

[shhh]

You are giving him more credit then he deserve.

Whatever, but your point that he is the enemy of Islam or Pakistan is wrong, he is our ally.

You are generalising the sect where I am talking about instituation. Issue is the Deoband itself in India. not the sect. Mullah desiel is the extenion of this influence. Which needs to be uprooted.

Deoband is a sect if you take the word of by anti-deobands, it is not a sect if we consider history. The issue here is that we are shooting at the wrong target, why do we consider deobands to be threats if they have actually spilled their blood and sacrificed their lives for Pakistanis and Afghans and continue to do so.

Deobands have been here long before 9/11 and the shit hit the fan when mushi screwed up, that is the cause of our problems, our current attacks are happening from Afghan soil carried out by NDS which is government institute. So to point that we are being hit by an ideology is basically does not hold true given the facts above.

That maybe the case, but in reality, its the powers to be who have got more influence then some bunch of Mullahs. My version of Gen Mahmood is correct and the way Mushy screwed up things later.

Who do you think would have more influence on Mullahs? Army or Mullahs?
Answer: Mullahs.

We have always communicated with Taliban through Mullahs, yes our generals and army men do have influence of them we do talk to them directly but we have always kept Mullahs in our communication circle. And I think you know why

Well, best of luck explaining that to the terrorists.

You are not making any sense.
Those terrorists are not screwed up because of some religion ideology they are screwed up because they have been brainwashed in a terrorist camp.

They do not have correct understanding of Islam of any sect.

 

[M. Sarmad]

First of all, I am intrigued as to why you left out "Mullah of Qom" from the discussion where I specifically mentioned them? Correct me if I am wrong, but I am senseing some sectranian BS here.

It has been mentioend that India is using its Deoband to extend its desgin inside Pakistan and the region while on the other hand Mullah of Qom are using our local misguided shia to extended their dreams of persian empire.

You cannot act against just one without leaving the other. otherwise it is disaster waiting to happen which we can ill afford. Plug needs to be pulled from both side.

Well, I left him out not because I have any special regard for the Mullah of Qom, but because I haven't seen any Pakistani Shia carry out suicide bombings in Pakistani Mosques, Schools and Hospitals.

Having said that, I believe that those Pakistanis who are more loyal to the Iranian Mullahs than their own country are no better than the Talibani terrorists.

 

[shhh]

What sectarian debate, mate ?

Almost all terrorists in Pakistan follow the Deoband School of thought. They are anti-state. This is an undeniable fact. We don't have any problem with their religious beliefs. But we do have a problem with their anti-state activities

Their "monkey" was neither a Muslim nor a deoband, we have caught sikhs and jews and hindus pretending to be Muslims, do not let your sectarian hatred effect your sanity.

 

[The Eagle]

What sectarian debate, mate ?

My friend, that was for earlier posts and for everyone, so no need to highlight all that again. Carry on with discussion in hand as per subject but do not bring-in the specif or any sect.

(for everyone) Also, my personal experience, never limit yourself to a distracting point that wouldn't let you move further and demonstrate your skills for betterment of society in general.

Not only (fake) Deoband but all as well. Just to quote as example, the arrested target killers involved in Sectarian Killings in Karachi belongs to a political party that has no relation with any school of thought at all so the answer is simple, they are terrorists and few fooled sunnis and shias. Every terrorist is anti-State and should be dealt without any exemption or relation, all my efforts to express.

Where does the problem lie ?

Very simple, Education and limiting ourselves to the only liked faces/person's worship/fake scholars but not the knowledge and book.

@hellfire good night to you. I did not propose the discussion to move into seniors cafe just because many of newly members are good in conversation, that would be like depriving them from the opportunity to speak {as I have been feeling the same myself in the past } but a nice way to avoid unnecessary derailing.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Very simple, Education......... .

Agreed ... Research done by the Pakistan based Social Policy and Development Center (SPDC) revealed that only 6% of madrassa students cite religious reasons for attending madrassas, while 89% cited economic reasons (The State of education Report, 2002-03, SPDC, 2003, p.161).

The government can increase its Education budget and provide financial aid to these students and encourage them to join public schools instead ..

BUT

Madrassas are not under the control of govt. and they receive heavy foreign funding, They are independent and they don't have to rely on govt. for anything . Article 20 (concerning Fundamental Rights) of Pakistan's constitution states :

(b) Every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.


Without amending the constitution, it is almost impossible for the government to bring Madrassas under "effective" control of the state ... And even a "talk" of amending any Islamic provision of the constitution draws a huge public outrage in Pakistan . (As we saw during Musharraf's era) ..



What do you suggest ?

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Whatever, but your point that he is the enemy of Islam or Pakistan is wrong, he is our ally.

For me he is a liablity to the state of Pakistan with plenty of historical baggage which is basically anti-Pakistan. you are entiled to your views though.

Deoband is a sect if you take the word of by anti-deobands, it is not a sect if we consider history. The issue here is that we are shooting at the wrong target, why do we consider deobands to be threats if they have actually spilled their blood and sacrificed their lives for Pakistanis and Afghans and continue to do so.

Deobands have been here long before 9/11 and the shit hit the fan when mushi screwed up, that is the cause of our problems, our current attacks are happening from Afghan soil carried out by NDS which is government institute. So to point that we are being hit by an ideology is basically does not hold true given the facts above.

I am not going into this debate of sect, or group of people with certain ideology, or school of thought, whatever. That is not the point. I am saying that cut the umbilical cord between deoband in India and Pakistan. We dont need any outside influence what so ever. We are big and ugly enough to build our own intellecual base and export our own thoughts. And that goes for both Sunnis and Shias.

Who do you think would have more influence on Mullahs? Army or Mullahs?
Answer: Mullahs.

We have always communicated with Taliban through Mullahs, yes our generals and army men do have influence of them we do talk to them directly but we have always kept Mullahs in our communication circle. And I think you know why

I disagree. Who ever got the stick is the king. Its a age old rule .

 

[shhh]

For me he is a liablity to the state of Pakistan with plenty of historical baggage which is basically anti-Pakistan. you are entiled to your views though.

Like what?

I am not going into this debate of sect, or group of people with certain ideology, or school of thought, whatever. That is not the point. I am saying that cut the umbilical cord between deoband in India and Pakistan. We dont need any outside influence what so ever. We are big and ugly enough to build our own intellecual base and export our own thoughts. And that goes for both Sunnis and Shias.

What makes you think Indian deobands have influence on Pakistani deobands that is turning them into terrorist, what evidence is there.

We are already exporting our influence to outside world by the way.

I disagree. Who ever got the stick is the king. Its a age old rule .

That would make the "state" a King. We didn't need Mullahs we wouldn't use them, it is as simple as that.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Well, I left him out not because I have any special regard for the Mullah of Qom, but because I haven't seen any Pakistani Shia carry out suicide bombings in Pakistani Mosques, Schools and Hospitals.

Having said that, I believe that those Pakistanis who are more loyal to the Iranian Mullahs than their own country are no better than the Talibani terrorists.

I apprecite your last sentence.

You see, its not the issue of who is more nutter here. The issue is if you go gun blazing against one, the receiving end will become more voilent and go extreme while pointing fingers at other extreme as to why those lot are not touched.

Thats why I mentioned that plug needs to be pulled from both ends. Cut the imbalical cord between deoband in India and Pakistan, and do the same with Mullah of Qom. Let both school of thoughts create their own intellectual base and instiutions inline with our national interests, so much so that outsiders comes to us for guidance and education.

 

[M. Sarmad]

.

Thats why I mentioned that plug needs to be pulled from both ends. Cut the imbalical cord between deoband in India and Pakistan, and do the same with Mullah of Qom. Let both school of thoughts create their own intellectual base and instiutions inline with our national interests, so much so that outsiders comes to us for guidance and education.

How can you bring their intellectual base and institutions inline with our national interests when they reject the very idea of a modern nation-state as unIslamic ? and when they describe the idea of Muslim Nationalism (the very idea that led to the creation of Pakistan) to be as unlikely as a ”chaste prostitute” ?

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Like what?

The same baggae the likes of ANPs, the likes of Achkzais got. You know the history right?

What makes you think Indian deobands have influence on Pakistani deobands that is turning them into terrorist, what evidence is there.

We are already exporting our influence to outside world by the way.

I dont have to repeat myself that Darul olom Deoband, India, is a compromised instituation with strong RAW penetration. Speak to the Indian muslims if you got the chance who are influced by Deoband in India and what they think of Pakistan. I know what I am talking about as I got extended family living in India.

That would make the "state" a King. We didn't need Mullahs we wouldn't use them, it is as simple as that.

Mullah are the tools, while who vieled the stick is the higher authority.

Mullah Umer was left high and dry in between Mahmood assurance and Mushy betrayal. This the crux of the issue.

How exactly can you bring their intellectual base and institutions inline with our national interests when they reject the very idea of a modern nation-state as unIslamic ?

Rejection, if there is any comes from the toxic theories from Deoband in India and Mullah in Qom. Cut that link.