Threat to Pakistan emanates from " INDIA managed " Afghan soil ; generals told

[M. Sarmad]

You are under a misconception that the root cause of terrorism is deoband ideology, which it is not, have you read deoband ideology? No!.

Your only basis on the claim is, "terrorist say they are deobands" which is flawed in itself.
You havent replied to any of my counter claims.



....... Who do you think Allama Iqbal was?
There is a reason Allama Iqbal was called "Allama". Allama literally means "molvi" which means "Mullah"


.

No, my friend. I have no misconceptions about Deoband ideology (or the root cause of terrorism). But you aren't mature enough to have a standard open discussion about religion (or even the history of your Mullahs). You are too emotional about your religion/sect. So let's not discuss that.


As for your claim that Allama Muhammad Iqbal was a Mullah, I suggest you to go through "The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam" by Dr. Muhammad Iqbal

http://islamicblessings.com/upload/The Reconstruction Of Religious Thought In Islam.pdf


He has said a lot of controversial things (controversial as per Mullahs' standards). For example:

1) Allama Iqbal believed that secularism was indeed compatible with Islam, and that 2) Modern Muslim Liberals were justified in rejecting Hadith as a valid source of law.

If he was a Mullah, then we really need more like him !!

 

[shhh]

No, my friend. I have no misconceptions about Deoband ideology (or the root cause of terrorism). But you aren't mature enough to have a standard open discussion about religion (or even the history of your Mullahs). You are too emotional about your religion/sect. So let's not discuss that.


As for your claim that Allama Muhammad Iqbal was a Mullah, I suggest you to go through "The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam" by Dr. Muhammad Iqbal

http://islamicblessings.com/upload/The Reconstruction Of Religious Thought In Islam.pdf


He has said a lot of controversial things (controversial as per Mullahs' standards). For example:

1) Allama Iqbal believed that secularism was indeed compatible with Islam, and that 2) Modern Muslim Liberals were justified in rejecting Hadith as a valid source of law.

If he was a Mullah, then we really need more like him !!

Nope, you do have a misconception, one is about me sect the other is about deobands, the very fact that you have not even studied Deoband ideology speaks for your credentials to speak on such matters.
Deoband is not my sect, I do not belong to any sect.
It was you who said that "Mullahs" rejected the idea of Pakistan, which is false.
Allama Muhammad Iqbal is not the only "Mullah" who has came up with controversial beliefs, what does that have to do anything with the debate at hand?
What we need is fewer people who post sectarian hatred without the knowledge of sect in question or Islam in general.
You have provided absolutely nothing that would qualify your claim that root cause of terrorism is deoband sect.
What sect did Iqbal belong to?

 

[M. Sarmad]

Nope, you do.
Deoband is not my sect, I do not belong to any sect.
It was you who said that "Mullahs" rejected the idea of Pakistan, which is false.
Allama Muhammad Iqbal is not the only "Mullah" who has came up with controversial beliefs, what does that have to do anything with the debate at hand?
What we need is fewer people who post sectarian hatred without the knowledge of sect in question or Islam in general.
You have provided absolutely nothing that would qualify your claim that root cause of terrorism is deoband sect.
What sect did Iqbal belong to?

I posted the link to the thread "Ulema and Pakistan Movement" (which of course you didn't bother to go through) and there is enough posted on that thread to "prove" (Yes, Prove) that the Mullahs opposed Jinnah and Pakistan Movement tooth and nail, and they rejected the idea of Pakistan. So, I am not wasting time on that anymore.

As for Allama Iqbal being a Mullah, I must say that it is one of the most hilarious things I have heard here in a while. No doubt Mullahs' Followers will go to any length to defend their demigods ..

And why are you being dishonest.? You most certainly follow the Deoband School of thought, why claim otherwise ?

I have posted Absolutely Nothing ? Did you miss this:

70 % of Madrassas are run by Deobandi sect and 82% of those belonging to Deobandi madrassas see the Taliban as a model for Islamizing Pakistan as per survey (Ali, 2010),

What more do we need to know about the Deoband teachings, or the Root Cause of Terrorism in Pakistan ?



Out of 37 banned religious outfits (terrorist organizations) in Pakistan, 22 are Deoband (and 6 are Salafist)

Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan (TTP), Lashkar e Jhangavi(LeJ), Sipah Sahaba Pakistan (SSP), Jaish e Muhammad, Lashkar e Islam, etc. are all Deoband organizations.



As for Iqbal's sect, Do you know that Allama Iqbal called Darul uloom Deoband and Hussain Ahmed Madani "Followers of Abu Lahab" ... and held them responsible for destroying Islam. ?

 

[shhh]

I posted the link to the thread "Ulema and Pakistan Movement" (which of course you didn't bother to go through) and there is enough posted on that thread to "prove" (Yes, Prove) that the Mullahs opposed Jinnah and Pakistan Movement tooth and nail, and they rejected the idea of Pakistan. So, I am not wasting time on that anymore.

Nope, your idea that Mullas opposed the idea of Pakistan falls flat on the fact that the person who brought the idea of Pakistan to general public is in fact Allama Iqbal, which is known to be a Mullah.

You know who tries to prove that the root cause of terrorism is Islam by posting anti-Islam stuff and reports? Non-muslims, you know what their "proof" is, a few bad Muslims and their acts, which now a days often are terrorists.

And you sure know, how do we respond to that? "They do not qualify as a Muslim, to understand Islam you have to study Islam", isnt that a correct statement? One cannot call Islam the root cause of terrorism without studying it, right?

What you are doing here against the deobands is the exact thing that non-muslims do against Muslims and I am giving you a very simple response, have you studied the deoband ideology? No!

That automatically makes you disqualified to make such a claim. It is as simple as 2+2. The reason you will not accept it, is because you have been hate-filled against a particular sect... actually all sects in Islam.

As for Allama Iqbal being a Mullah, I must say that it is one of the most hilarious things I have heard here in a while. No doubt Mullahs' Followers will go to any length to defend their demigods ...

Or that Mullah haters would deny the reality? Do you even know what a Mullah is? If you dont, you will make a fool out of yourself.

And why are you being dishonest.? You most certainly follow the Deoband School of thought, why claim otherwise ?

Nope, I used to be from the sect that is "anti-deoband" I was told to hate Deobands from my childhood, I simply do not buy the idea of hating a particular sect or anyone in general without understanding their side of story. Unlike you.

I have posted Absolutely Nothing ? Did you miss this:

70 % of Madrassas are run by Deobandi sect and 82% of those belonging to Deobandi madrassas see the Taliban as a model for Islamizing Pakistan as per survey (Ali, 2010),

What more do we need to know about the Deoband teachings, or the Root Cause of Terrorism in Pakistan ?

There are two misconceptions here, one is that Madrassahs are root cause of terrorism (which is outright stupid).
The other thing my friend is that you consider Taliban to be a threat... you are free to believe whatever you want.
But what the survey has "missed" here, is a very important question and that is "why"?

Why do they think Taliban as a role model. There answer is the same as that of the people who think caliphate to be the problem to all our solutions.

Go ask, you may be surprised and enlightened.

Out of 37 banned religious outfits (terrorist organizations) in Pakistan, 22 are Deoband (and 6 are Salafist)

Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan (TTP), Lashkar e Jhangavi(LeJ), Sipah Sahaba Pakistan (SSP), Jaish e Muhammad, Lashkar e Islam, etc. are all Deoband organizations.

You my friend should also know that only these two are sects are actually known to be actively participating in Jihad, how many bralvi organizations are there that take part in Jihad.

These organizations are not all guaranteed to be correct followers of Islam, just like ISIS. These are the result of Pakistan army's screw up.

What you are missing or choose to ignore is that the organizations that are not banned and working with Pakistan also belong to deoband and Ahl-e-Hadith sect.

As for Iqbal's sect, Do you know that Allama Iqbal called Darul uloom Deoband and Hussain Ahmed Madani "Followers of Abu Lahab" ... and held them responsible for destroying Islam. ?

As I said you are not very well versed about deoband or Islam in general, your knowledge and conclusion is based on anti-deoband reports (which are obviously written by anti-deobands pretending to be neutral) and bad people's acts who happened to be deoband.

There is a saying, there are three kinds of lies. "Lies", "Dammed Lies" and "Statistics".

You apparently do not understand the difference b/w deoband school of thought and Darul uloom Deoband, either.

Dont let sectarian hatred affect your sanity.

 

[Daghalodi]

Who do you think Allama Iqbal was?
There is a reason Allama Iqbal was called "Allama". Allama literally means "molvi" which means "Mullah".

 

[M. Sarmad]

Nope, your idea that Mullas opposed the idea of Pakistan falls flat on the fact that the person who brought the idea of Pakistan to general public is in fact Allama Iqbal, which is known to be a Mullah.

You know who tries to prove that the root cause of terrorism is Islam by posting anti-Islam stuff and reports? Non-muslims, you know what their "proof" is, a few bad Muslims and their acts, which now a days often are terrorists.

And you sure know, how do we respond to that? "They do not qualify as a Muslim, to understand Islam you have to study Islam", isnt that a correct statement? One cannot call Islam the root cause of terrorism without studying it, right?

What you are doing here against the deobands is the exact thing that non-muslims do against Muslims and I am giving you a very simple response, have you studied the deoband ideology? No!

That automatically makes you disqualified to make such a claim. It is as simple as 2+2. The reason you will not accept it, is because you have been hate-filled against a particular sect... actually all sects in Islam.



Or that Mullah haters would deny the reality? Do you even know what a Mullah is? If you dont, you will make a fool out of yourself.



Nope, I used to be from the sect that is "anti-deoband" I was told to hate Deobands from my childhood, I simply do not buy the idea of hating a particular sect or anyone in general without understanding their side of story. Unlike you.



There are two misconceptions here, one is that Madrassahs are root cause of terrorism (which is outright stupid).
The other thing my friend is that you consider Taliban to be a threat... you are free to believe whatever you want.
But what the survey has "missed" here, is a very important question and that is "why"?

Why do they think Taliban as a role model. There answer is the same as that of the people who think caliphate to be the problem to all our solutions.

Go ask, you may be surprised and enlightened.



You my friend should also know that only these two are sects are actually known to be actively participating in Jihad, how many bralvi organizations are there that take part in Jihad.

These organizations are not all guaranteed to be correct followers of Islam, just like ISIS. These are the result of Pakistan army's screw up.

What you are missing or choose to ignore is that the organizations that are not banned and working with Pakistan also belong to deoband and Ahl-e-Hadith sect.



As I said you are not very well versed about deoband or Islam in general, your knowledge and conclusion is based on anti-deoband reports (which are obviously written by anti-deobands pretending to be neutral) and bad people's acts who happened to be deoband.

There is a saying, there are three kinds of lies. "Lies", "Dammed Lies" and "Statistics".

You apparently do not understand the difference b/w deoband school of thought and Darul uloom Deoband, either.

Dont let sectarian hatred affect your sanity.

^^ Are you really that dumb ? (or are you just acting dumb ?)... Anyway, there is no point discussing anything with you anymore ...

 

[IceCold]

Why have we deviated from the topic of the thread and turned this into religious Sec BS. Focus on what the generals are told and institutions believe rather being a self expert on Sec violence.
Having said that i agree Sectarian violence has increased in Pakistan many folds and even person like Mumtaz Qadari are called shaheeds. But that is a topic for another thread.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Why have we deviated from the topic of the thread and turned this into religious Sec BS. Focus on what the generals are told and institutions believe rather being a self expert on Sec violence.

Relgious BS ? No one is discussing theology here. And you are the first one to use the word "Sectarian Violence" on this thread. That's not what this discussion is about.

Our problem is militancy. And whether you like it or not, the fact remains that Madrasas (principally the Deoband Madrasas) in Pakistan are connected with militancy.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

So that is what you are talking about. Well we have Mullahs that were against the idea of Pakistan and we have Mullahs that are in favor, both in deoband and other sects.

And both of them had strong points.

Obviously, we won.

I dont remember Fazalul Rehman opposing the idea of Pakistan, his father was very Pro Pakistani.

Fazul ur Rahmen is a dirty slag who has done f*** all as a chairman of kashmir committe. Ask him about his views about kashmir! These spend cartridges need to discarded asap. They only bring bad name of the deobandis. Mulana Sami ul Haq is however respectable. Always low key and doing the right things.

How do you define "supervision of state".

Ensuring that there is no outside interferance/connection in running of these institutions. Making sure there is no underlying idealogies taught in these institution which can make forigen entities more hollier then Pakistan. This should be across the board, all school of thougts.

 

[shhh]

Fazul ur Rahmen is a dirty slag who has done f*** all as a chairman of kashmir committe. Ask him about his views about kashmir! These spend cartridges need to discarded asap. They only bring bad name of the deobandis. Mulana Sami ul Haq is however respectable. Always low key and doing the right things..

Hahahaha.
Well.... on that matter, I cant say much, but we (pro-Mullahs) have a benefit keeping him in parliament.

Ensuring that there is no outside interferance/connection in running of these institutions. Making sure there is no underlying idealogies taught in these institution which can make forigen entities more hollier then Pakistan. This should be across the board, all school of thougts.

Hmmmm.
That might work if the state tried to break the ties with India. But it would be almost impossible to do that if case of Suadi ties.

^^ Are you really that dumb ? (or are you just acting dumb ?)... Anyway, there is no point discussing anything with you anymore ...

Or you do not have anything practical to say other than your sectarian hatred?

 

[IceCold]

Relgious BS ? No one is discussing theology here. And you are the first one to use the word "Sectarian Violence" on this thread. That's not what this discussion is about.

Our problem is militancy. And whether you like it or not, the fact remains that Madrasas (principally the Deoband Madrasas) in Pakistan are connected with militancy.

I read the thread and gone through all the posts. Generals think otherwise. Unless you know something they don't I suggest lets stay on topic which is about threat emerging from India and Afghanistan.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I read the thread and gone through all the posts. Generals think otherwise. Unless you know something they don't I suggest lets stay on topic which is about threat emerging from India and Afghanistan.

At the conference, the generals were told that threat was emanating from Afghan soil, which was being managed by Indian intelligence agencies. However, at the same time there was an acknowledgment that a network of ‘facilitators’ within the country provided an enabling environment for the external enemy.

It is unclear who the facilitators of the external enemy are — whether they are extremist and terrorist organisations operating within the country or other anti-state elements? ...

 

[tarrar]

Throw Afghan refugees out of Pakistan, most of the problems will be solved automatically.

 

[HAIDER]

View attachment 324821 View attachment 324822

After reading this shair ...I realize my urdu is getting worst ...english was bad too...

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Hmmmm.
That might work if the state tried to break the ties with India. But it would be almost impossible to do that if case of Suadi ties.

Dont have to cut ties. Iran strictly control its ideology coming out of Qom and have no tolerance of any interference from outside, same goes for Saudis. We need to do the same. At the end of the day, its about the finances. State needs to sustain these institutions. Here I would agree with KPK government when they gave 400 million to Mullana Sami ul Haq. Whoever is the paymaster will eventually call the shots. Foreign funding needs to be uprooted. Through the funding they manipulate Pakistan and export their ideology.