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Threat to Pakistan emanates from " INDIA managed " Afghan soil ; generals told

@Azlan Haider Excellent posts. I enjoyed interacting with you the other time on J&K issue. And my respects for you have gone up further.

I totally agree. May I just point out the the Deobandis have no loyalty to any nation per se. They are simply fighting the advent of the wahabis/salafists in order to secure their own interests - a pure and simple matter of control over the 'religious destiny' of majority of Muslims of the sub-continent.

At independence in 1947, there were only 137 madrassas (seminaries) in Pakistan. Today there are between 40-50 thousand Madrassas in Pakistan (most of them unregistered). As per SPDC report (2003) , 70 % of Madrassas are run by Deobandi sect (the hardliners) affiliated with Wafaq-ul-Madaris Al-Arabia (one of the five madrassah boards in Pakistan) despite the fact that Deobandis make up less than 10 % of Pakistan's population.

We are stuck in a bad situation, esp. when 82% of those belonging to Deobandi madrassas see the Taliban as a model for Islamizing Pakistan as per survey (Ali, 2010).


Most of the Pakistanis fail to realize the graveness of the threat posed by these locally bred extremists to the State of Pakistan, and to our future generations.
 
@The Eagle Totally agree with your post #29. The only problem is that they sectarianism is increasingly being seen in the acts of terror itself. The aim of the terror groups is to create conditions of strife in the civil society, weaken the rule of law and de-stabilise the societal fabric thereby rendering governance ineffective, leading onto an increasing propensity of the citizens to seek 'security' from established militias. The most successful example wherein this theory was tested out was Iraq and now Syria.

The US, like the stupid they are, would be asking people in Iraq if they were Sunni or Shia, whereas Iraq was a society where the cohesion in society was such that these matters were not of any importance and indeed a freely mixing society of Shia-Sunni-Christian was existing. And today, we have militias on sectarian lines, fighting against a common enemy and against each other!!

The more we try to ignore and issue, the more it gains traction. Complacency from being politically correct can have disastrous consequences. Anyways, that is my opinion. The above stupidity of being politically correct is increasingly fracturing the US society, European system is under strain, and the ISIS and AQ have used the refugees to ensure that the large number of immigrants are increasingly seen as threat and thereby the reactive policies of the state and the local people will further allow them a pool to recruit from; it is affecting both Indian and Pakistani societies as well, a trend which shall be a folly for all to ignore.

Thanks
 
Protecting Hospitals is a job of police, point your fingers there

and protecting cities and country from foreign sponsor terrorism is responsibility of?

btw i am not saying ISI alone is responsible.. where are our civilian intelligence?
 
Terrorists are terrorists and they have no relations with Islam at all....

Then why do those terrorists chant “Allahu Akbar” every time before carrying out a terrorist attack ? And later they justify their acts by quoting Books (Hadith and Fatwas by great Islamic Scholars of the past) considered Holy by the majority of Muslims ... Why in denial ? Let's face it bro .. Let's be honest... Islam, as interpreted by the majority of Muslims, DOES have a problem right now ..
 
@Azlan Haider Totally agree with your post. That is a point where I keep getting ridiculed by members here. The Afghan policy of 80s had a grave repercussion for Pakistani society. When it was continued over the next two decades, it has left a legacy of cadres who refuse to recognise institutional set up of a nation state. That is now what is haunting Pakistan today.

I had said that it was in Indian interest to keep Pakistan de-stabilised. Here the members agreed with me. But where most would start ridiculing would be when I would say that it is in Indian interests to ensure that PA and GoP remain as viable institutions. The former by India desisting from any overt act of mobilisation etc etc which distracts PA from undertaking CI ops in Pakistan's restive areas and the latter by ensuring a semblance of dialogue over Kashmir which gives GoP a political space to maintain it's position and not come under severe public pressure.

With a fear of being trolled, I suspect that the current unrest in Kashmir, the cause of which was Burhan Wani's killing (someone who I know for sure we had under our regular SIGINT and HUMINT surveillance) had some malafide intent. His killing, the timing of which was suspect for me and I pointed as much to few members, as we could have liquidated him at any time earlier also, has resulted in increased highlighting of Kashmir issue, the threats by LeT and HeM as also GoP is increasingly coming under pressure from the people of Pakistan.

When I say we could have liquidated Wani anytime, I say so from my own experiences in valley as also the fact that just a couple of days back Burhan Wani's father addressed a large gathering and he is now being hailed as the new face of Kashmir's struggle and there a militant who was with Burhan in his outfit, addressed the public and appealed them not to indulge in stone throwing as it allowed the police and security forces to deploy lethal force and cause civil casualties. The militant was openly addressing a gathering!!

With this blast in Quetta, for which the premise of RAW's involvement being there may hold true, there is also a counter-point. I suspect that there may be a coordinated attempt at simultaneously de-stabilising the GoP and by instigating more trouble in Kashmir valley to create situations leading to pressurising the PA to re-orient under severe public pressure to India specific Ops (thereby effectively distracting them from their successes in their restive regions against the various groups). The only reason why I contend that RAW may not be involved in this is because of this angle.

We could have upped the ante on much larger scale earlier also. But honestly as an Indian, for us our security objectives are met by ensuring you remain sufficiently unstable in Baluchistan-Sindh-NWFP so that your army remains engaged in long drawn out ops in these regions, and you effectively check these groups which are a threat for you and for us also. Only an idiot would do something this big as an Indian, thereby allowing all groups and PA to get on the same page and have our happiness in valley.(just got tired of typing!!!)

Thanks
 
and protecting cities and country from foreign sponsor terrorism is responsibility of?

On that record, they are fine, we seriously cant expect them to guard hospitals.

btw i am not saying ISI alone is responsible.. where are our civilian intelligence?

This is not the fault of ISI anyway, they are doing their best, its the police that needs to be scolded and you see no signs of it happening.

They dont come more Sunni then me dude.

If Mullah deisel is our interface with Taliban , then god help ISI, the establishment, the deep state and the state of Pakistan.

It is for a long time dude.

Mate, it is a known fact that Deoband, the actual deoband in India is highly compromised by RAW. and they have used Deoband services to project their propaganda inside Afghansitan. It is a leverage that India had/is and will excerise to spread its influence inside Afghanistan. We need to be very vigilant.

ummm, there are a number of Pakistani deoband that are part of Afghan Taliban. They are a part of Kashmir Mujahideen too, what evidence is there that RAW is exercising Pakistani or Indian deoband to spread there terrorism.

Your version of post 9/11 events is incorrect, Infact Gen Mahmood told Mullah Umer to remain steadfast, its the Mushy who lost his marbles and end up creating an absolute mess.

My version of post 9/11 events does not conflict with this, a team of our deoband scholars met with Mullah Omar, they feared that war with USA will spill a lot of blood in Afghanistan (which did happened), Mullah Omer responded that they have given asylum to Usama and now Quranic order is to, "either not give an asylum or if given do everything to to ensure his safety even if you have to sacrifice your complete army".
 
@hellfire

The whole idea of "Muslim Nationalism in South Asia" (developed by Sir Syed and the Aligarians), which ultimately led to the creation of Pakistan, was inspired by the political theories of John Locke, Milton and Thomas Paine .... The creation of Pakistan was indeed the culmination of a process that derived all of its sustenance from this idea/theory ..


Bitterly opposed to this idea were people like Jamaluddin Afghani and Maududi .. Afghani severely criticized Sir Syed for the rejection of the idea of Pan-Islamism by the latter, and Mullah Maududi described the idea of Muslim Nationalism as unlikely as a ”chaste prostitute” ... (Abul Ala Maudoodi, Mussalman Aur Maujooda Syasi Kashmakash, quoted in K. K.Aziz, The Making of Pakistan, p. 148.)



In Pakistan, Jinnah and Sir Syed are held in high regard, but their ideological opponents (i.e, Afghani and Maududi) are followed by the vast majority of Pakistanis ... This "contradiction" has resulted from the state-sponsored religious-chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion .....

You are right, The Islamists (including Deoband) have no loyalty to any nation. They don't believe in the concept of nation or nation state. They believe in Pan-Islamism. And whenever (and where ever) they get a chance, they try to impose their ideology. Afghanistan, Pakistan and maybe India next.
 
Then why do those terrorists chant “Allahu Akbar” every time before carrying out a terrorist attack ? And later they justify their acts by quoting Books (Hadith and Fatwas by great Islamic Scholars of the past) considered Holy by the majority of Muslims ... Why in denial ? Let's face it bro .. Let's be honest... Islam, as interpreted by the majority of Muslims, DOES have a problem right now ..

No you interpret Islam wrongly just like those terrorists.

Their justifications are as ballox as our neighbor's justification for their efforts of terrorism inside Pakistan. Those justifications are very easily countered. very easily.

Chanting "Allahu Akbar" does not make someone a Muslim right? What do you think an Arab christian will chant if he wants to glorify ALLAH? (Christians believe in Allah).
 
At independence in 1947, there were only 137 madrassas (seminaries) in Pakistan. Today there are between 40-50 thousand Madrassas in Pakistan (most of them unregistered). As per SPDC report (2003) , 70 % of Madrassas are run by Deobandi sect (the hardliners) affiliated with Wafaq-ul-Madaris Al-Arabia (one of the five madrassah boards in Pakistan) despite the fact that Deobandis make up less than 10 % of Pakistan's population.

We are stuck in a bad situation, esp. when 82% of those belonging to Deobandi madrassas see the Taliban as a model for Islamizing Pakistan as per survey (Ali, 2010).


Most of the Pakistanis fail to realize the graveness of the threat posed by these locally bred extremists to the State of Pakistan, and to our future generations.

The problem is not the sect itself, its the brain child which is the deoband, the actual deoband in India which is compromised by RAW. That link needs to be uprooted.

Similarly, the link between the Mullah of Qom in Iran and our local Shia mullahs needs to be uprooted.

In nutshell, all sects need to build their intellecual base INHOUSE. There should be no outside links. Infact the only links should be gonig outwards from Pakistan. So the state can extend its influence.
 
shameful! when are the Pakistanis going to admit the well known truth? they are unable to control the jihadi terror outfits that were nurtured by their own government and military agencies. now that these outfits are attacking not just the neighbors of Pakistan but within Pakistan itself.
 
No you interpret Islam wrongly just like those terrorists.

And they say that the rest of Muslims (including you) interpret Islam wrongly and that's why they are killing us.

Do you deny that terrorists have regularly tried to justify acts of terrorism (including APS attack) by quoting Sahih Hadith ?
 
And they say that the rest of Muslims (including you) interpret Islam wrongly and that's why they are killing us.

One has to be out of mind to take the mentally disturbed people's word seriously.
Would you actually think that a person who can shoot a "child at point blank" has any sort of sanity left in himself.

Do you deny that terrorists have regularly tried to justify acts of terrorism (including APS attack) by quoting Sahih Hadith ?

No, I said there justifications are wrong and countered very easily.
 
@hellfire and others as well, I will just make it further easy so that many of our friends, mostly Pakistanis will understand as the subject in hand is about Pakistan.

There is a criminal/terrorists standing outside our house so the resident will call state/LEAs for the help and safety but would not say that "Hey! make sure to dispatch a Sunni, Shia, Deobandi, Brelvi, Christian, Hindu etc to save me but will be literally asking for help without any of that Sect venom because the caller is meant to save his/her own skin and house and fear of death. They are very MEAN, aren't they? and are the biggest threat to the nation in whole that are threat to many lives and country.

On other hand, when it comes to the country, which itself is our home and land, fools starts to play the politics and are driven so easily by the ideology of the same criminal/terrorists that was standing outside the house of the same caller a while ago. So the pity is, or I would say the Irony is, when it is about the safety of own/individual then there are no differences but as comes to the country which is feeding us all, they play like what the same terrorists wants.

Also it is the duty of state to redress the grievances of the complainant, though the grievances have limits too, so as soon as it is found or revealed that there are no such logical or human complaints but an attempt to sabotage the peace while creating chaos and unrest, that perpetrators ought to be dealt with all means and as per law defined. Unfortunately, where the ruling class is more meant to save own skin and wealth being all down to earth for personal greed, cannot do the job what the state law is meant and will definitely result in way whereby the society/nation will under continuous threat and a soft target to kill/sabotage/eliminate. Before dealing with such terrorism, the change within the house starting with right political approach is much needed in a democratic system that most of the people lacks but there is a sign of improvement so hope for the best.

The same goes to many other religions as well, whereby, the one scared of dying (death) never choose/pick the preferred sect/religion soldier but when it comes to the lives of others, starts to play the self motivated and selfish politics. People must understand that every single word uttered by these greedy politicians, fake scholars and media are not the verses or last words to follow but seek the true facts, educate and then adopt the right practice which is not just beneficial for an individual but for the whole nation.

The enemy is common for us so no need to divide while countering the same threat that is under disguise of many names, sects, or religions. Whosoever is the threat to the state, should be dealt accordingly as per law.

Islam never taught such education nor ever propagate at all and everyone of us knows very well and clearly but the problem is, as soon as the term or teaching does not fit my personal means/greed, the one will go to any limit and beyond teachings to serve the ego/selfish empire. As far as I know, in first place, Islam does not allow and prohibit its followers to divide in sects at all.

Such selfish approach only for the gain of greed/power or wealth is very well utilized by the enemy and recruiting is done on such basis whereby the bait, without seeing any where else or point, plays into the hands of enemy against own country. The point, whereby enemy successfully utilize the weaknesses of one, is needed to be addressed on urgent basis without any delay which can save many of lives. Interestingly, we have seen improvements in this subject, especially in FATA and Baluchistan, whereby many of separators/fooled by the same ideology have surrendered to the state. So for such achievements, we need time to do so and this cannot be done overnight while on other hand, coming out of panic, the enemy will try every trick to derail such process but all we have to do is stand firm and united.

I can be wrong in my assessments or findings, but it is purely my opinion and the way I see things. I hope the peace be prevailed and a better Pakistan and world.
 
The problem is not the sect itself, its the brain child which is the deoband, the actual deoband in India which is compromised by RAW. That link needs to be uprooted.

Similarly, the link between the Mullah of Qom in Iran and our local Shia mullahs needs to be uprooted.

In nutshell, all sects need to build their intellecual base INHOUSE. There should be no outside links. Infact the only links should be gonig outwards from Pakistan. So the state can extend its influence.

How can you say that the sect itself is not the problem when 82% of those belonging to Deobandi madrassas see the Taliban as a model for Islamizing Pakistan ? Or do you think that such beliefs have been 'instilled' into them by the Indian RAW ?

No, I said there justifications are wrong and countered very easily.

Well, best of luck explaining that to the terrorists.
 

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