The Wahhabisation of Pakistan

[fatman17]

Ok, if you have not said so than perhaps I was confused, issue setteled.



When ever I meet any middle eastern people, together we find many common things to share. I have family friends from middle east but I cannot find a single common ground to talk with any indian fellow. This forum can be taken as a classic example that’s how opposite we are to each other in our beliefs about various things (forget the religion)

I'm also shocked to hear about food comments... Have you lived in any middleeastern country? or let me put it this way, have you ever eaten in indian restaurant? Indian food is only chatni and paapar maximum with lintel soup. Here again I would say, it is indians who are shunning their culture and are changing on daily basis. First they adopted Pakistani culture, food etc and now slowly they are adapting to meat as well.
Look at the dress gandhi used to wear but now their rulers wear shairwani suit.
There women use to wear sari and now they started wearing shalwar suit / trouser shirt etc.
Next will be west but never will they wear dhoti or sari again.
Hell I now I even see indians drinking tea in cups, have you ever seen them drinking water? they never used glass, they used to eat food in big steal trays and never used plates or cutlery tools.
With all I mention above, I say their is nothing wrong about Indian evolution they are doing just fine but why the hell they want to use Pakistanis to keep their sari/dhoti culture alive?
Pakistani kitchen cuisines are more close to Arabic, Persian and Turish. Kebabs, Saji, vegetables, lintels, all we can find in classic middle eastern kitchen. It has come to india with the Muslim rulers.
Personally, I don’t use even pinch of spice or red pepper in my house. I do garnish BBQ with some Turkish spices and and that’s all.

Now coming to language, I have already told that our language is a mixture of Arabic, Persian, Turkish and now bit English as well and Indian spoke it because it was the official language from Mughal rulers, we can read Arabic, Persian but not hindi!
If we cannot understand Arabic than it should be made compulsory in schools to learn it, this will bring us more close to Arabic culture and more distant from Indian culture.

I'm sorry but I can never go along with any idea of sharing any thing with indians. I hate the concept of being counted among Indians in any form.

i am dissapointed in your blinkered approach.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Fatman

What has the Indian bought from us that we ought to buy this or that from them - do they not ban PTV? have u experienced them engage in the kinds of critical introspection we see Pakistanis engage in? - I don't - I think we should be fair.

Anyway, this Indian business takes us away from the substance of the discussion -- and what is Moderate Islam? Why not just Islam as we decide what lens inform that Islam.

If we see a Harsh, intolerant, ignorant Islam, and we don't agree that this is Islam, we can change it -- it is a matter of training, with what kinds of ideas will we use as light to understand texts and tradition.

This business about moderate and hardline stuff is the kindof thing we should avoid - we ought to focus on only Islam, we lay claim to it's entirety.

Just for your info we have bought sugar and now we are importing immense amount of Paksitan cement.
so, get your facts right.

PTV is not banned. It is in spurts. QTV is not banned.

But do tell me, is DD allowed in Pakistan or Indian films? Right now a Pakistani film (I don't see films) is doing full house!

I thank you for opining that we don't have introspection? We are not human, right? Good for you, Sigmund Freud!

Remember, one swallow does not a Spring make!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Every chapter in Quran begins with God describing himself as Merciful and compassionate -- how then is an islam that is intolerant, unforgiving and inhumane even capable of getting away with suggesting that it is islam??

That is a subject that you people alone can decide.

Culture is a living, evolving proposition. Why must we whether it is Pakistan or India be stuck in something that we imagine is a permanent thing. Cultural propositions have to be evaluated on the basis of good, bad, right and wrong - if something that we think is East is wrong and bad, well, th fact that it is East becomes irrelevent.

You have a point worth debate.

 

[fatman17]

Fatman

What has the Indian bought from us that we ought to buy this or that from them - do they not ban PTV? have u experienced them engage in the kinds of critical introspection we see Pakistanis engage in? - I don't - I think we should be fair.

Anyway, this Indian business takes us away from the substance of the discussion -- and what is Moderate Islam? Why not just Islam as we decide what lens inform that Islam.

If we see a Harsh, intolerant, ignorant Islam, and we don't agree that this is Islam, we can change it -- it is a matter of training, with what kinds of ideas will we use as light to understand texts and tradition.

This business about moderate and hardline stuff is the kindof thing we should avoid - we ought to focus on only Islam, we lay claim to it's entirety.

my dear muse - i am not advocating what one should buy or not (indian or pakistani). what the indians do is their business.
ok i take your point - yes Islam that is what majority of pakistanis want and who will train the people who are for the Harsh, intolerant, ignorant Islam,. the people or the govt. and here lies the main point. what has the state got to do with our religion. as far as i am concerned, my religion is between me and my God.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

my religion is between me and my God.

Precisely.

That is what I understand is the beauty of Islam.

There is no intermediaries!

 

[Flintlock]

my dear muse - i am not advocating what one should buy or not (indian or pakistani). what the indians do is their business.
ok i take your point - yes Islam that is what majority of pakistanis want and who will train the people who are for the Harsh, intolerant, ignorant Islam,. the people or the govt. and here lies the main point. what has the state got to do with our religion. as far as i am concerned, my religion is between me and my God.

What do you have to say to those who accuse moderates of being weak apologists who want to dilute Islam?

They don't have much of an intellectual argument, but unfortunately they appeal very effectively to the emotions.

Sadly, throughout history, people who can play with emotions are far more influential than those who can produce a solid argument.

 

[muse]

fatman

I was not referring to doing business with the indian, cultural exchanges are a multipath proposition, not one way.

On your point of religion being between the faithful creature and The Creator, most certainly, at it's most intimate it is experiential., however; there is a public aspect of it as well as a practical aspect, we must NOT abdicate responsibility by suggesting that the most intimate of experience is the only experience for which we bear responsibility.

After all, is it not religion in Pakistan, already a public business? So why not tackle the issue and not choose to let it be someone else's decision.

A particular kind Religious instruction is informing attitudes and behaviour we find so troubling and shameful - this particular religious instruction has been persuavsive only because we have failed to offer an alternative and specifically because we have failed to offer justification.

Look around and you willl see, all kinds of quotes from religious text in support of political, economic and social attitudes and behavior, is this not so? these are justifications, the quotes that is - the probem is that these quotes are informed by a particular set of ideas, a particular lens or prejudice or training - I am only suggesting that we be cognizant of this and counter it and that the vehicle for this can be the instruction offered in government schools. And that this supposedly "secular and democractic" govt. might deliver on at least this if nothng else.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I now understand what is your point, Muse.

Rather valid point of view though it might not be savoured.

 

[fatman17]

fatman

I was not referring to doing business with the indian, cultural exchanges are a multipath proposition, not one way.

On your point of religion being between the faithful creature and The Creator, most certainly, at it's most intimate it is experiential., however; there is a public aspect of it as well as a practical aspect, we must NOT abdicate responsibility by suggesting that the most intimate of experience is the only experience for which we bear responsibility.

After all, is it not religion in Pakistan, already a public business? So why not tackle the issue and not choose to let it be someone else's decision.

A particular kind Religious instruction is informing attitudes and behaviour we find so troubling and shameful - this particular religious instruction has been persuavsive only because we have failed to offer an alternative and specifically because we have failed to offer justification.

Look around and you willl see, all kinds of quotes from religious text in support of political, economic and social attitudes and behavior, is this not so? these are justifications, the quotes that is - the probem is that these quotes are informed by a particular set of ideas, a particular lens or prejudice or training - I am only suggesting that we be cognizant of this and counter it and that the vehicle for this can be the instruction offered in government schools. And that this supposedly "secular and democractic" govt. might deliver on at least this if nothng else.

that is the problem - the vehicle (the govt) is in cahoots with these people backed by the wahabis of s/arabia. our Great Founder advocated a "secular and democractic" country only for Zia to destroy the very fabric of our society. i as a citizen will do all i can, on this forum and otherwise. we unfortunately cannot bank on this or any other govt to do what u and i are trying to advocate / preach in our own different ways.

 

[niaz]

fatman

I was not referring to doing business with the indian, cultural exchanges are a multipath proposition, not one way.

On your point of religion being between the faithful creature and The Creator, most certainly, at it's most intimate it is experiential., however; there is a public aspect of it as well as a practical aspect, we must NOT abdicate responsibility by suggesting that the most intimate of experience is the only experience for which we bear responsibility.

After all, is it not religion in Pakistan, already a public business? So why not tackle the issue and not choose to let it be someone else's decision.

A particular kind Religious instruction is informing attitudes and behaviour we find so troubling and shameful - this particular religious instruction has been persuavsive only because we have failed to offer an alternative and specifically because we have failed to offer justification.

Look around and you willl see, all kinds of quotes from religious text in support of political, economic and social attitudes and behavior, is this not so? these are justifications, the quotes that is - the probem is that these quotes are informed by a particular set of ideas, a particular lens or prejudice or training - I am only suggesting that we be cognizant of this and counter it and that the vehicle for this can be the instruction offered in government schools. And that this supposedly "secular and democractic" govt. might deliver on at least this if nothng else.

Hon Muse,

Let us leave India aside; we are discussing Wahabizaton of Pakistan.

I was myself brought in reasonably religious household but in my time there was no compulsion on anyone and most people only went to mosque on Fridays. There were a lot Pirs & Murids etc. By today's standard, Islam was practiced less overtly. The people were however generally law abiding; until 1962 (when I went to UK) only one murder occurred in the surrounding villages. Even that was a crime of passion. There were no kidnappings for ransom, car jackings or susicide bombings. Now we have Sharia laws but all kinds of crimes are 100 times more.

It is as if there is an altogether different Pakistan. Instead of lathis and knives, people use guns at the slightest provocation. Shias and Sunnis kill each other for no rhyme or reason and once I saw written at the door of a mosque that this Masjid belongs to Deobandi maslak. What the hell has happened? If you ask me, I would say that Zia ul Haq, MMA and Maulana Farooqi happened.

I don’t believe it has got to do with lot of Pakistanis working in the Gulf. After all Gulf also includes Dubai, where Mosque and night clubs are open nearby, it is up to an individual where he wants to go and is answerable to Almighty for his actions on the Day of Judgment.

IMO it is because during the Zia's time we played host to a very large number of jehadis, mainly of Deobandi maslak with strong Wahabi leanings. Additionally, afraid of Iran, Saudi Arabia and USA in cahoots with Zia ul Haq and likes of Hamid Gul, deliberately created and financed outfits such as Sepah Sehaba and financed rascals such as Maulana Farooqi, Tariq Azam etc. These people fanned sectarian hatred and founded madarassahs which were nurseries of extremism. I have myself read a book called “Shias are Muslims or Kaffirs, you decide” written by Maulana Farooqi. In this it is implied that Shias are ‘wajibul qatal’ that is it is okay to kill Shias.

This was without doubt with covert state backing because idea was to brainwash young people to fight the Russians in the name of Islam. Later the same were used in Kashmir.

Now the genii is out of the bag and uncontrollable. A large segment of the population has been brainwashed over the years. Even today, I heard Nawaz Sharif asking for justice for Lal Masjid thugs. I think the country is being torn from within and leaders don’t give a damn. One must understand that there cannot be two states in one country. PPP has been forced to do what Musharraf was doing in FATA.

Dont think that change of curriculam is going to happen. We are actually changing text books and filling them with incorrect info about our past.This is making it worse. Slightest tilit towards the good and all start crying Zionist conspiracy. Remember the noise MMA made against the Agha Khan board!

It is ultimately the people who have to choose between a Dark Age totalitarian state ostensibly called a Khilafat that is an ideal for ignorant Muslims or a modern welfare state where the individual is free to practice the religion without any compulsion from any body. If you ask me, all the signs are that whole of Pakistan could be turned into FATA in 20 years time with people gathering in football grounds to watch beheading of their countryman without proper trial. We have already seen public floggings in the bigot Zia's time.

 

[muse]

Niaz

A most excellent post indeed and sad reading. Not that I disagree, I very much agree - Pakistan was and is a battle ground between the Iranian and Saudi - in fact it is a battle ground for many.

In this battle as the saying goes, when elephants fight it is the grass that that gets crushed and the grass in our case is us, the people of Pakistan.

However; we face a decision to make, we can go into oblivion without a fight, without countering our tormentors or we can take some action.

Yes, I agree that the problem seems insurmountable, but reality is nothing is insurmountable. It may seem that we cannot influence the government or society, and our lack of success in not being able to influence authorities in a positive way may add to the sense of doom and gloom - but I will say that Alllah has not brought Pakistan along only to abandon it - harkat and barakat - the harkat part is on us. Our failure is really bringing us closer to our success, I am convinced of this - in their hearts of hearts, people know that this, all that they witness cannot be good or right and they know what the problem is.

They need us to give voice to that problem and it's solution - I'm not saying that my suggestion is our formula, but it may be one ingredient.

I cannot agree more with you that our society is a brutalized society, it acts out the brutality it experiences on a daily basis - but we must also recognize that we do not exist in a vacuum, many influences play on us - and to my thinking, we must realize that we also have a process of transition from a traditional society to a modern and in some instances, post modern society, at the same time we have trends that suggest tribalization.

If I may, with your permission, like to offer that in such a situation of seeming adriftness of being rudderless, leadership can play a most uplifting role. Pakistanis, to my thinking, respond to truthful plain talk and resolute, willful leadership - it is most unfortunate that some have made curious ideas with regard to politics their religion, here I reveal my prejudice -- I recall how people of pakistan responded to that midnight speech on 10 oct "we can sink no lower.."

All of these are no reason for despair and all the more reason for optimistic action. Tht things are not what we would like needs no further elaboration, what needs elaboration and public articulation are possible solutions.

 

[fatman17]

Hon Muse,

Let us leave India aside; we are discussing Wahabizaton of Pakistan.

I was myself brought in reasonably religious household but in my time there was no compulsion on anyone and most people only went to mosque on Fridays. There were a lot Pirs & Murids etc. By today's standard, Islam was practiced less overtly. The people were however generally law abiding; until 1962 (when I went to UK) only one murder occurred in the surrounding villages. Even that was a crime of passion. There were no kidnappings for ransom, car jackings or susicide bombings. Now we have Sharia laws but all kinds of crimes are 100 times more.

It is as if there is an altogether different Pakistan. Instead of lathis and knives, people use guns at the slightest provocation. Shias and Sunnis kill each other for no rhyme or reason and once I saw written at the door of a mosque that this Masjid belongs to Deobandi maslak. What the hell has happened? If you ask me, I would say that Zia ul Haq, MMA and Maulana Farooqi happened.

I don’t believe it has got to do with lot of Pakistanis working in the Gulf. After all Gulf also includes Dubai, where Mosque and night clubs are open nearby, it is up to an individual where he wants to go and is answerable to Almighty for his actions on the Day of Judgment.

IMO it is because during the Zia's time we played host to a very large number of jehadis, mainly of Deobandi maslak with strong Wahabi leanings. Additionally, afraid of Iran, Saudi Arabia and USA in cahoots with Zia ul Haq and likes of Hamid Gul, deliberately created and financed outfits such as Sepah Sehaba and financed rascals such as Maulana Farooqi, Tariq Azam etc. These people fanned sectarian hatred and founded madarassahs which were nurseries of extremism. I have myself read a book called “Shias are Muslims or Kaffirs, you decide” written by Maulana Farooqi. In this it is implied that Shias are ‘wajibul qatal’ that is it is okay to kill Shias.

This was without doubt with covert state backing because idea was to brainwash young people to fight the Russians in the name of Islam. Later the same were used in Kashmir.

Now the genii is out of the bag and uncontrollable. A large segment of the population has been brainwashed over the years. Even today, I heard Nawaz Sharif asking for justice for Lal Masjid thugs. I think the country is being torn from within and leaders don’t give a damn. One must understand that there cannot be two states in one country. PPP has been forced to do what Musharraf was doing in FATA.

Dont think that change of curriculam is going to happen. We are actually changing text books and filling them with incorrect info about our past.This is making it worse. Slightest tilit towards the good and all start crying Zionist conspiracy. Remember the noise MMA made against the Agha Khan board!

It is ultimately the people who have to choose between a Dark Age totalitarian state ostensibly called a Khilafat that is an ideal for ignorant Muslims or a modern welfare state where the individual is free to practice the religion without any compulsion from any body. If you ask me, all the signs are that whole of Pakistan could be turned into FATA in 20 years time with people gathering in football grounds to watch beheading of their countryman without proper trial. We have already seen public floggings in the bigot Zia's time.

and guess who's the current leader of this bigoted lot...NS of PML-N. beware of this man's chicaneries.

 

[BATMAN]

i am dissapointed in your blinkered approach.

I have just stated the facts which may not be pleasant to many but they are indisputable.
My brief comments in whole post were that 'I don’t wish to be recognized among Indians' and I will strongly promote my fellow country men to think same. We should strongly reject the notion that Pakistanis are Indians. I will not mind at all to see Pakistanis following western culture or Middle Eastern or North African culture.
If you wish to call it narrow minded than be it, but I believe I have the right to choose the culture which I like to follow.
It is not a sin to adopt Indian culture but I just don’t wish to see Indian culture in Pakistan because it is Indian culture which is BLINKERED and not me.
I have no suspicions in saying that Indian culture is nothing but every thing ill mannered, indiscriminate to rich, poor and their immigrant geography.
I’m sorry but good part of the world believes so, incl. my humble self.

P.S. Excluding are those indians who grew up in western day care centers and foreign neighbor hoods.

I have to say no more.
Thanks.

 

[Flintlock]

I have just stated the facts which may not be pleasant to many but they are indisputable.
My brief comments in whole post were that 'I don’t wish to be recognized among Indians' and I will strongly promote my fellow country men to think same. We should strongly reject the notion that Pakistanis are Indians. I will not mind at all to see Pakistanis following western culture or Middle Eastern or North African culture.
If you wish to call it narrow minded than be it, but I believe I have the right to choose the culture which I like to follow.
It is not a sin to adopt Indian culture but I just don’t wish to see Indian culture in Pakistan because it is Indian culture which is BLINKERED and not me.
I have no suspicions in saying that Indian culture is nothing but every thing ill mannered, indiscriminate to rich, poor and their immigrant geography.
I’m sorry but good part of the world believes so, incl. my humble self.

P.S. Excluding are those indians who grew up in western day care centers and foreign neighbor hoods.

I have to say no more.
Thanks.

Just one question...what do you mean by "immigrant geography"?

 

[BATMAN]

My comments in light of my

Niaz
A most excellent post indeed and sad reading. Not that I disagree, I very much agree - Pakistan was and is a battle ground between the Iranian and Saudi - in fact it is a battle ground for many.

In this battle as the saying goes, when elephants fight it is the grass that that gets crushed and the grass in our case is us, the people of Pakistan.

When it comes to Saudi Arabi as compare to Iran it has been more open to Pakistanis and outer world.
Even the media in SaudiArabi is more free as compared to Iran.
Without disputing views about Zia. I also like to mention that both countries Iran and Saudi were even more brain washed than Pakistanis and Iranians little bit more for afore stated reasons.
Individually, Iranians are more sweet and gentel and arabs are harsher.
I have read news papers from all of arab world as well Iran.
When it comes to Pakistan Iranian media mostly take its news from indian media and I believe we need to pay more attention with our relations towards Iran as compare to india. We should do expand trade with iran instead of indian. Say no to TATA buses and buy Iran Khodro buses, instead.

Yes, I agree that the problem seems insurmountable, but reality is nothing is insurmountable. It may seem that we cannot influence the government or society, and our lack of success in not being able to influence authorities in a positive way may add to the sense of doom and gloom - but I will say that Alllah has not brought Pakistan along only to abandon it - harkat and barakat - the harkat part is on us. Our failure is really bringing us closer to our success, I am convinced of this - in their hearts of hearts, people know that this, all that they witness cannot be good or right and they know what the problem is.

Beautiful words and I would add that Pakistanis should start looking beyond india and instead of visiting Tajmahal we should visit shrines of Muslim scientists and scholars in Iran. Otherwise also food and nature is better than hindustan.
Before declaring Dubai or SaudiArabia as Arab culture, we should try to visit Jordan, Syria or as a matter of fact whole North Africa.
If we visit them frequently, than we can also expect some visitors back. We are a great host nation and it’s a proud fact that once any foreigner visit Pakistan he never forgets our hospitality and I have heard numerous such tales from visitors.
Generally, those who have never visited Pakistan believe Pakistan is same as India and once they have seen india there is no need for them to visit Pakistan.

If I may, with your permission, like to offer that in such a situation of seeming adriftness of being rudderless, leadership can play a most uplifting role. Pakistanis, to my thinking, respond to truthful plain talk and resolute, willful leadership - it is most unfortunate that some have made curious ideas with regard to politics their religion, here I reveal my prejudice -- I recall how people of pakistan responded to that midnight speech on 10 oct "we can sink no lower.."

Our politics is family based and which is actually suppressing any leader to surface. Today we have son in law of bhutto dictating Pakistan and next will be his son or son in laws and so on. We also have two sharif's son's and son in laws and so on..
What is most important for Pakistanis is to get rid of these two tribes. Today no one in Punjab wish to challenge sharifs and no one in Sindh wish to challenge Zardari.
Musharraf was good enough to lead us in any phase but we have witnessed the foreign interference through biased propaganda and pressure to forgive those two thugs and allow them to run for elections, today those thugs are exploiting state laws to their comfort. If they face any judicial inquiry they wish to have judges of their own choice, other wise long march.
Both of those have hijacked our society and changing it to worst. I have lived in Lahore when all BUTT clan were big thugs and ran qabza groups under the patronage of Shahbaz. For personal gains Sharifs ruined the Lahore culture. I guess same was done by Bhuttos family in Karachi.