The Wahhabisation of Pakistan

[Contrarian]

with due repect to all lerned colleagues - we really need to read the article once again. its not about wahabism or sufiism, we need to (as pakistanis) finally decide what our identity is. are we part of the greater middle-east (arabic background) or are we part of the sub-continent. i think it is quite clear!. we belong to the indian culture which allows one to be either hindu, sikh, muslim or christian. what that means is that the majority of muslims of the sub-continent are moderate in their islamic views and we cannot allow saudi arabia to have a free hand in changing our world view notwithstanding the lure of the petro-dollars they are pouring into this country. it is really ominous the $$$ being invested by saudi, uae and qatari businessmen in real-estate and power sectors.

I am very very impressed by your view fatman17. What you said is absolutely true, but there is a problem. As SA said, the petro dollars of the Saudi's are funding most of the madrassas who teach wahabist ideologies. Most of the money also going to the terrorists originates from Saudi Arabia. They also exercise great influence in Pakistan where they are given a royal treatment and they also fund the terror infrastructure in Pakistan.

Also i have seen this, most Pakistani's attribute their ancestry to Arabia or Afghans, and thus take pride in following the Saudi view of things which is considered the leader of the Muslim world.

Feel free to correct me in my views if you feel im wrong..!

the other reality is also very clear, any notions of re-uniting the "greater india" are non-existant. pakistan is here to stay just like india, bangladesh etc.

Definitely, all these countries are here for keeps. What is troubling is the religious fanaticism growing in these nations(and i include India in this).

 

[BATMAN]

with due repect to all lerned colleagues - we really need to read the article once again. its not about wahabism or sufiism, we need to (as pakistanis) finally decide what our identity is. are we part of the greater middle-east (arabic background) or are we part of the sub-continent. i think it is quite clear!. we belong to the indian culture which allows one to be either hindu, sikh, muslim or christian. what that means is that the majority of muslims of the sub-continent are moderate in their islamic views and we cannot allow saudi arabia to have a free hand in changing our world view notwithstanding the lure of the petro-dollars they are pouring into this country. it is really ominous the $$$ being invested by saudi, uae and qatari businessmen in real-estate and power sectors.
the other reality is also very clear, any notions of re-uniting the "greater india" are non-existant. pakistan is here to stay just like india, bangladesh etc.

Indians are shunning their own culture and adopting western values, I see them changing on daily basis and you are suggesting to adopt their culture?

Muslims or Christians cannot survive in Hindu society their culture and beliefs are 180°opposite.
Where ever I met indians, I found nothing to share, their living habits are entirely alien not only to me but to most of this world.

I see my self more close to middleastern culture, north african, persian or western culture but nothing common with Hindi culture.

I don't know what's happening today in Pakistan but I have been isolated from indian culture, while I was growing.
I think we have to prevent our youth from watching indian tv and all trade with india must be stopped immediately.
When I was young I remember cinemas of Pakistan use to screen Hollywood movies and now it has been changed to indian movies! where as most of indian movies are copies of hollywoods?
Name of our language is a Turkish word and it has its roots in Arabic, Persian and Turkish mostly.
If I'd be given a chance I would change official language of Pakistan to arabic, squezing any chance of having any influence of indian culture.

 

[muse]

Too bad our Indian contingent and some Pakistanis seemed to not have understood the piece - the indians argue that being more indian is the answer, the Pakistanis equally, if not more confused seem apologetic -- middle eastern, south asian, middle american, martian or wahabi, these, it seems to me miss the point that being "muslim", the content of that meaning - and that is what Pakistan is and will be, first and foremost - has to be discussed, debated, advertised, promoted.

South Asian is not some panecea, And can Indians credibly make claims at having made any achievement with regard to good, bad, right and wrong?? A little humility will go a long way - no offence is intended, but do feel free if that is all you can take from it.

What is good? why? What is bad? WHY? what is right?? WHY? what is wrong? WHY?? - Huntington gets bad press - but is it really not about values and culture?? Which values? WHY???

Yes, much of the world and real life is shades of grey, so can good, bad right and wrong have any place in our society?? If you think not, just look carefully at what we have and try to answer why elements of Pakistani society increasingly find answers imported from societies in which they are marginal -- can it be that even where they are marginal, they find succor in values? What does that say about what they experience and who they might be? Can it be that at least with such answers as wahabism, at least they assert that they think is right and wrong and good and bad?

Sufis or Wahabism? rubbish! these are not the only choices available and these are not necessary -- Pakistan's identity is and will be, primarily informed by the answer to the question, "what does it mean to be a Muslim", now if Wahabism is providing a assertive answer, ought we not consider this question and providing an even more persuasive counter point??

 

[fatman17]

Indians are shunning their own culture and adopting western values, I see them changing on daily basis and you are suggesting to adopt their culture?

Muslims or Christians cannot survive in Hindu society their culture and beliefs are 180°opposite.
Where ever I met indians, I found nothing to share, their living habits are entirely alien not only to me but to most of this world.

I see my self more close to middleastern culture, north african, persian or western culture but nothing common with Hindi culture.

I don't know what's happening today in Pakistan but I have been isolated from indian culture, while I was growing.
I think we have to prevent our youth from watching indian tv and all trade with india must be stopped immediately.
When I was young I remember cinemas of Pakistan use to screen Hollywood movies and now it has been changed to indian movies! where as most of indian movies are copies of hollywoods?
Name of our language is a Turkish word and it has its roots in Arabic, Persian and Turkish mostly.
If I'd be given a chance I would change official language of Pakistan to arabic, squezing any chance of having any influence of indian culture.[/QUOTE]

where did i say adopt hindi culture and what is common between us and middleeastern culture (we dont even speak their language and the food is different)

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

If one observes the course that Pakistan has taken after its creation, there was no gross fundamentalist strain,

It is only after Zia's policies and the Mujahideen actions in Afghanistan where the USSR had to quit did a new found vigour in Islam emerged - a new confidence in a manner of speaking.

This confidence possibly was "negativised" by interested parties to include Zia and the fundamentalist monster was unleashed.

Intially, it was tolerated and may even have been nurtured. But it has come a full circle, where using the name of Islam, perfidy has been unleashed, where such elements are threatening the integrity and sovereignty of the country. The unfortunate part is that the onslaught of Zia's legacy has overcome many a Pakistani mind, so much so, there is support ir sympathy for these elements inspite of their tearing the innards of the nation!

 

[fatman17]

Too bad our Indian contingent and some Pakistanis seemed to not have understood the piece - the indians argue that being more indian is the answer, the Pakistanis equally, if not more confused seem apologetic

i take umbrage with your assumption - i am not apologetic at all - i want our nation to stand up and say we are pakistanis first and moderate islam is our religion but we cannot discard the reality where are roots are from.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The idea of Greater India is totally bogus.

Pakistan is a reality and all must accept that.

Pakistan has to find the Pakistan identity and the Pakistani application of Islam.

Mecca maybe in Saudi Arabia but they are no one to interpret Islam for others. Or so I believe.

 

[muse]

Fatman

What has the Indian bought from us that we ought to buy this or that from them - do they not ban PTV? have u experienced them engage in the kinds of critical introspection we see Pakistanis engage in? - I don't - I think we should be fair.

Anyway, this Indian business takes us away from the substance of the discussion -- and what is Moderate Islam? Why not just Islam as we decide what lens inform that Islam.

If we see a Harsh, intolerant, ignorant Islam, and we don't agree that this is Islam, we can change it -- it is a matter of training, with what kinds of ideas will we use as light to understand texts and tradition.

This business about moderate and hardline stuff is the kindof thing we should avoid - we ought to focus on only Islam, we lay claim to it's entirety.

 

[Flintlock]

Fatman

What has the Indian bought from us that we ought to buy this or that from them - do they not ban PTV? have u experienced them engage in the kinds of critical introspection we see Pakistanis engage in? - I don't - I think we should be fair.

So, wait a minute, you are saying that Indians don't engage in "Critical introspection"?

 

[muse]

Assasin

the thread is not about Indians - the universe, mine especially does not revolve around things Indian - and yes, in my opinion, Pakistanis are far more critical as is right and good, whereas indians are far more self congratulatory -each to their own. In my intial post I made the point that offence is not offered but if that all some can take from the thread, then that is all they can take from it.

think about the issues in the thread, can you contribute to the discussion in the thread?

 

[Flintlock]

Assasin

the thread is not about Indians - the universe, mine especially does not revolve around things Indian - and yes, in my opinion, Pakistanis are far more critical as is right and good, whereas indians are far more self congratulatory -each to their own. In my intial post I made the point that offence is not offered but if that all some can take from the thread, then that is all they can take from it.

think about the issues in the thread, can you contribute to the discussion in the thread?

Perhaps muse, you are only exposed to a section of the Indian media which is often self-congratulatory, as it should be, considering the success of the country on many fronts.

But as you say, this thread is not about India.

I think what Fatman is trying to say, is that the epicentre of Pakistani culture and attitudes were more east-facing rather than west-facing, if you get my drift.

By culture i mean music, language, cuisine, fashion and attitudes towards life in general.

 

[muse]

Culture is a living, evolving proposition. Why must we whether it is Pakistan or India be stuck in something that we imagine is a permanent thing. Cultural propositions have to be evaluated on the basis of good, bad, right and wrong - if something that we think is East is wrong and bad, well, th fact that it is East becomes irrelevent.

Coming to our discussion, Wahabism succeeds because there is no alternative presented -- people are not persuaded by a slogan such as "Sufism" what they are craving is Justification for values we suggest that Muslims ought to have.

Every chapter in Quran begins with God describing himself as Merciful and compassionate -- how then is an islam that is intolerant, unforgiving and inhumane even capable of getting away with suggesting that it is islam??

I have argued that it is training that we must focus on -- training, education, is a prejudice, if you like and I suggest that we promote training of those who impart religious instruction - now, the mullah, is not what I have in mind, rather it is the school teacher - and this means govt must decide what light informs the values imparted in that education.

Let us not wait for the mullah, Pakistan govt is very conservative in the sense that it does not wantot venture into this field as it would be novel for it to do so - but we can take a lesson from what is going on in Turkiye with regard to cleansing hadith. Don't you think?

 

[BATMAN]

where did i say adopt hindi culture

Ok, if you have not said so than perhaps I was confused, issue setteled.

and what is common between us and middleeastern culture (we dont even speak their language and the food is different)

When ever I meet any middle eastern people, together we find many common things to share. I have family friends from middle east but I cannot find a single common ground to talk with any indian fellow. This forum can be taken as a classic example that’s how opposite we are to each other in our beliefs about various things (forget the religion)

I'm also shocked to hear about food comments... Have you lived in any middleeastern country? or let me put it this way, have you ever eaten in indian restaurant? Indian food is only chatni and paapar maximum with lintel soup. Here again I would say, it is indians who are shunning their culture and are changing on daily basis. First they adopted Pakistani culture, food etc and now slowly they are adapting to meat as well.
Look at the dress gandhi used to wear but now their rulers wear shairwani suit.
There women use to wear sari and now they started wearing shalwar suit / trouser shirt etc.
Next will be west but never will they wear dhoti or sari again.
Hell I now I even see indians drinking tea in cups, have you ever seen them drinking water? they never used glass, they used to eat food in big steal trays and never used plates or cutlery tools.
With all I mention above, I say their is nothing wrong about Indian evolution they are doing just fine but why the hell they want to use Pakistanis to keep their sari/dhoti culture alive?
Pakistani kitchen cuisines are more close to Arabic, Persian and Turish. Kebabs, Saji, vegetables, lintels, all we can find in classic middle eastern kitchen. It has come to india with the Muslim rulers.
Personally, I don’t use even pinch of spice or red pepper in my house. I do garnish BBQ with some Turkish spices and and that’s all.

Now coming to language, I have already told that our language is a mixture of Arabic, Persian, Turkish and now bit English as well and Indian spoke it because it was the official language from Mughal rulers, we can read Arabic, Persian but not hindi!
If we cannot understand Arabic than it should be made compulsory in schools to learn it, this will bring us more close to Arabic culture and more distant from Indian culture.

I'm sorry but I can never go along with any idea of sharing any thing with indians. I hate the concept of being counted among Indians in any form.

 

[Flintlock]

When ever I meet any middle eastern people, together we find many common things to share. I have family friends from middle east but I cannot find a single common ground to talk with any indian fellow. This forum can be taken as a classic example that’s how opposite we are to each other in our beliefs about various things (forget the religion)

That's mostly because we discuss things related to politics, which we can never agree on.

I'm also shocked to hear about food comments... Have you lived in any middleeastern country? or let me put it this way, have you ever eaten in indian restaurant? Indian food is only chatni and paapar maximum with lintel soup. Here again I would say, it is indians who are shunning their culture and are changing on daily basis. First they adopted Pakistani culture, food etc and now slowly they are adapting to meat as well.
Look at the dress gandhi used to wear but now their rulers wear shairwani suit.

I'm shocked to see you ignorance of Indian food....lol....

I don't remember India ever "adopting" Pakistani culture, nor the other way around.
Things are shared between the two countries nevertheless.

Another misconception....lots of Indians do eat meat, except Brahmins and some other castes. I myself eat meat. Every day of the week!

There women use to wear sari and now they started wearing shalwar suit / trouser shirt etc.

Well I'm willing to bet that 90%+ women still wear the Sari in India.

Among those who don't wear the sari, it is reserved for special occasions like parties or weddings or festivals.

Trouser shirt...lol....the whole world wears that, including the President of Iran!

Salwar Suit is worn mainly among Punjabis and muslims in India. But as you say its becoming popular because its more convenient for daily use.

Next will be west but never will they wear dhoti or sari again.

Actually, the Sari has become a very popular fashion accessory!

Hell I now I even see indians drinking tea in cups, have you ever seen them drinking water? they never used glass, they used to eat food in big steal trays and never used plates or cutlery tools.

Are you saying that Pakistanis have always used cutlery and glasses?

With all I mention above, I say their is nothing wrong about Indian evolution they are doing just fine but why the hell they want to use Pakistanis to keep their sari/dhoti culture alive?

Ok now that's a rather prejudiced statement.

Pakistani kitchen cuisines are more close to Arabic, Persian and Turish. Kebabs, Saji, vegetables, lintels, all we can find in classic middle eastern kitchen. It has come to india with the Muslim rulers.

Are you forgetting that it came to Pakistan with muslim rulers too?

The influence of middle eastern culture has come to both Pakistan and India, and that has little to do with religion.

Now coming to language, I have already told that our language is a mixture of Arabic, Persian, Turkish and now bit English as well and Indian spoke it because it was the official language from Mughal rulers, we can read Arabic, Persian but not hindi!

You mean Urdu? My friend, urdu was Adopted by Pakistan after independence.

It was never a native language of Pakistan, which are Punjabi, Sindhi, etc.
and which have their roots in Sanskrit.

Urdu was also created in India by the elite class of muslims, and it borrows heavily from native languages.

I'm sorry but I can never go along with any idea of sharing any thing with indians. I hate the concept of being counted among Indians in any form.

Well the reality is that you do share quite a lot, and its unlikely to change in a hurry.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Batman,

If India is copying Paksitani style and attire and eating Frontier food, it does indicate the free from dogma Indian mindset.

That is a good thing rather than being a frog in the well and living in the past or finding religious dogma to prevent adopting something!

The salwar and Kameez is a north undivided India dress and worn by the working class since it was less cumbersome. The creme de la creme of Islamic faith never wore it in the style it is worn today!



Urdu is a language of Uttar Pradesh of India and Islamic faith people elite!

It was never a language of Pakistan!