The third option for attack helicopter

[Dr. Strangelove]

Interesting bit of info

In 1990s particularly in 1996-97 We had good business dealing with South Africa they had attack helicopter program running and requested our JV. which we rejected due to engine because it was using same engine as Atlas Oryx / Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma.which would have got us into trouble with French Manufacturer. it will sound silly but nobody saw the big picture and its true to contact french manufacture parrallel and get engines from them.

This is how we lost the opportunity of Denel Rooivalk yes i needed avionics like night fighting capability which could have easily arranged via SEGAM which was already involved with ROSE program.

what was the upside..complete weapons package TOT and airframe TOT.

An other case of Lost opportunity. I want to cry!

Denel still needs a partner for its Rooivalk Mk2 program we can still make up for the opportunity we lost. Original Rooivalk was great Attack Helicoptor was Cheap to maintain needed very little maintenance a 3 man Crew could maintain it. It was the perfect Attack Helicoptor for a country like Pakistan. I m in support of Pakistan Investing in Denel they need money we could get great many things from them as we have in the past. We could even get Umkhonto SAM series from them. But i know we will waste this opportunity like the last one.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Denel still needs a partner for its Rooivalk Mk2 program we can still make up for the opportunity we lost. Original Rooivalk was great Attack Helicoptor was Cheap to maintain needed very little maintenance a 3 man Crew could maintain it. It was the perfect Attack Helicoptor for a country like Pakistan. I m in support of Pakistan Investing in Denel they need money we could get great many things from them as we have in the past. We could even get Umkhonto SAM series from them. But i know we will waste this opportunity like the last one.

Yep.

We can stretch things too, e.g., work with Denel to re-work the Rooivalk/Mk2 design so that it can handle the VK2500 or TV3-117 from Ukraine. Those are the Mi-17/171's engines, so they'll work in our environment for sure.

Yes, it will be difficult to localize the dynamic parts (transmission, rotors, etc), but we can make those inputs our R&D contribution for the project. It's complex and costly, but we can learn these things from Turkey or even Europe (at a more abstract level).

 

[mudas777]

Yep.

We can stretch things too, e.g., work with Denel to re-work the Rooivalk/Mk2 design so that it can handle the VK2500 or TV3-117 from Ukraine. Those are the Mi-17/171's engines, so they'll work in our environment for sure.

Yes, it will be difficult to localize the dynamic parts (transmission, rotors, etc), but we can make those inputs our R&D contribution for the project. It's complex and costly, but we can learn these things from Turkey or even Europe (at a more abstract level).

Bilal as much as we wish about Pakistan start producing their own goodies our nation is hooked on US items. Firstly US don't want to sell it to us and secondly they are using those few items almost to taunt us. Still our nationals are non stop talking about F 16 V and F16 72 and F15 E sales.
We must make a start even e.g. if we produce fuselage of the helicopter and rest of the items if we can source it from different places that will be one hell of the achievement. If somehow complete fuselage is beyond our capabilities make it 50%, make a start, take first steps and over time new capabilities can be added. Going by the mood on the capital hill and closeness between US and India any one can see what's in store for us. Our leadership lacks urgency, desire and courage, till then we can always dream about items produced in Pakistan.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Bilal as much as we wish about Pakistan start producing their own goodies our nation is hooked on US items. Firstly US don't want to sell it to us and secondly they are using those few items almost to taunt us. Still our nationals are non stop talking about F 16 V and F16 72 and F15 E sales.
We must make a start even e.g. if we produce fuselage of the helicopter and rest of the items if we can source it from different places that will be one hell of the achievement. If somehow complete fuselage is beyond our capabilities make it 50%, make a start, take first steps and over time new capabilities can be added. Going by the mood on the capital hill and closeness between US and India any one can see what's in store for us. Our leadership lacks urgency, desire and courage, till then we can always dream about items produced in Pakistan.

I agree. 100%.

The lack of urgency, desire and courage are all symptoms. The 'root problem' at hand is something else, either just a total lack of care/interest in advancing Pakistan, lack of foresight, or something worse.

 

[HAIDER]

I agree. 100%.

The lack of urgency, desire and courage are all symptoms. The 'root problem' at hand is something else, either just a total lack of care/interest in advancing Pakistan, lack of foresight, or something worse.

Delay due to limited budget and get the best buy from money in hand. I think its no point to rush. At this moment nothing for Pakistan in attack helicopter market... waiting is the best and wise option for Pakistan. Try to use more drones for all type surveillance.

 

[Silverblaze]

The Eurasian times is a pro hindutva terrorist website and is one the website networks designed to malign Pakistan. Please avoid citing links.

 

[TheTallGuy]

We can still pick up the Rooivalk (i.e., Rooivalk Mk2).

The advantage of the Rooivalk here is that the engine (Safran Makila) is an older design, and the only business Safran Group is getting from it is for a few Super Pumas and, if lucky, some Caracals. I expect Safran wants to move to its next-gen engines, so if we pay them for it, we could get turnkey ToT for the Makila-series.

We could buy the entire Rooivalk Mk2 project and bring its RSA team to Pakistan. With them, we could look at integrating the Makila 2 to the Rooivalk, and work on creating commonality between the Rooivalk Mk2 and the Airbus H225M Caracal. To get French support, we could leverage our aging Pumas, Sea Kings and Mi-8s (if any haven't been replaced by Mi-17s) to get H225Ms off-the-shelf from them (in order to get Rooivalk tech and to replace older helicopters economically, i.e., with same engine and critical parts as Rooivalk).

Where there's a will, there's a way. Like, we're talking about a third world country with nuclear weapons and now a FGFA project here. The only enemy we have is our lack of vision and recurring flaw of letting outside interests throw us off, while tainting people who do want Pakistan to thrive with suspicion or ridicule.

South Africa need at 70 x Rooivalk order to re-start production. Engine was not an issue actually up-rated Malika 2(Easily obtained & operated) with 2200hp each is enough to give Pakistan Army aviation units enough power to operate in all geography of Pakistan.

Pakistan Army needs to do JV 58%-42% (Like JF17 Program) with South Africa. I hope Denel bring some type of offer...to Pakistan also. we can have Attack helicopter in operation within 1 year if we start the same Block built approach.

Please Pakistan Army for once purchase without prejudice and politics..Attack choppers do not need to be extremely high tech at start..block built to high tech..rough and tough able to take punishment.

I hope South African see this opportunity! they have provided us with MUPSOW/Raptor I/II/III why not bring rooivalk in consideration for export to Pakistan.

I agree. 100%.

The lack of urgency, desire and courage are all symptoms. The 'root problem' at hand is something else, either just a total lack of care/interest in advancing Pakistan, lack of foresight, or something worse.

Pain is how much we are willing to pay for AH-1Z and T129 and how much we need to pay to get Roovailk JV and get ability to self assembled & later manufacture. again Engine also dont need to be high tech ...2200hp each would be enough...same like we have RD93 not high tech but do its job perfectly.

i think we have put forward 1.5 Billion US$ for 30 x T-129 (which it self is Mangusta JV by Turkey ---same story as Rooivalk) correct me if i am wrong. we can have the complete program JV and 70+ helicopter is this budget with offsets in future R&D.

Just look at it....what should have been done..and is not done..?

we do not need extreme high tech...when from 7.62 to 14.7mm bullets are fired at you ...you need tough/rough air frame able to take punishment..we do not need to over-kill it.

They are Pros and Cons...i want to here Cons...of this?

 

[ARMalik]

Day by day, this Turkish deal smells very fishy. Something is not right here. I should not be saying the word starting with 'C' as it might offend a lot of people here, but day by day, this deal just does not add up.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Day by day, this Turkish deal smells very fishy. Something is not right here. I should not be saying the word starting with 'C' as it might offend a lot of people here, but day by day, this deal just does not add up.

interesting part is Pakistan Army never invited Denel/Kentron to do try outs like Chinese and Turkish counter part so....the possibly best option was just not prosecuted as it was not lucrative.

FISHY it is...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Day by day, this Turkish deal smells very fishy. Something is not right here. I should not be saying the word starting with 'C' as it might offend a lot of people here, but day by day, this deal just does not add up.

It's not so much the Turks or Chinese are fishy, the fishy part is why we didn't put a JV with RSA (or even Turkey/China) on the table.

South Africa need at 70 x Rooivalk order to re-start production. Engine was not an issue actually up-rated Malika 2(Easily obtained & operated) with 2200hp each is enough to give Pakistan Army aviation units enough power to operate in all geography of Pakistan.

Pakistan Army needs to do JV 58%-42% (Like JF17 Program) with South Africa. I hope Denel bring some type of offer...to Pakistan also. we can have Attack helicopter in operation within 1 year if we start the same Block built approach.

Please Pakistan Army for once purchase without prejudice and politics..Attack choppers do not need to be extremely high tech at start..block built to high tech..rough and tough able to take punishment.

I hope South African see this opportunity! they have provided us with MUPSOW/Raptor I/II/III why not bring rooivalk in consideration for export to Pakistan.



Pain is how much we are willing to pay for AH-1Z and T129 and how much we need to pay to get Roovailk JV and get ability to self assembled & later manufacture. again Engine also dont need to be high tech ...2200hp each would be enough...same like we have RD93 not high tech but do its job perfectly.

i think we have put forward 1.5 Billion US$ for 30 x T-129 (which it self is Mangusta JV by Turkey ---same story as Rooivalk) correct me if i am wrong. we can have the complete program JV and 70+ helicopter is this budget with offsets in future R&D.

Just look at it....what should have been done..and is not done..?

we do not need extreme high tech...when from 7.62 to 14.7mm bullets are fired at you ...you need tough/rough air frame able to take punishment..we do not need to over-kill it.

They are Pros and Cons...i want to here Cons...of this?

I agree.

The good thing about the Rooivalk is that it's a heavyweight design, so it could serve in Pakistan in the same vein the AH-64E is in India. Yes, the Rooivalk would need an extensive electronics upgrade, and access to a millimetric wave (mmW) radar, but that's doable (we can collaborate with Turkey).

I would rather we buy all of the design rights to the Rooivalk while keeping 48% of its supply channel in South Africa. The reasoning is that if RSA stops producing its parts, we can continue in Pakistan.

Besides attack helicopters, we can also collaborate with South Africa on the following:

• Mokopa ATGM
• 70 mm laser-guided rockets
• Raptor III SOW (for use from the JF-17)
• Marlin BVRAAM (100+ km)
• A-Darter WVRAAM
• Umkhonto ER (60+ km) SAM
• Umkhonto EIR (35 km) SAM
• LGB kits
• PGB kits
• Ramjets (for supersonic-cruising anti-ship missiles, next-gen BVRAAM, etc).
• 8x8 AFVs
• 155 mm/52-cal towed-howitzer and wheeled SPH
• 155 mm/52-cal tracked SPH tech
• 105 mm/52-cal lightweight (3,800-kg) howitzer
• Cheetah C-RAM
• Defensive Aid Suites for armoured vehicles, aircraft, etc

The list goes on and on. It's a total shame that we're not taking advantage of these opportunities. I get the worry of 'not having enough time' or 'funds,' yet our gov't/generals buy time diffusing tension with India, and we're able to find funds for Chinese, Turkish, European, etc imports. Like, the PAF and PA spent nearly $1b on SAMs using older SARH technology, why not develop ARH-based SAMs using the Umkhonto as a basis?

If we want to go the Turkish route, then let's do it the right way. Let's set-up a joint-venture for the 6-ton ATAK (i.e., the one with the Turkish engine and T625's rotors, transmission, etc and other critical parts) and enter the T625's supply chain in a big way.

 

[YeBeWarned]

 

[TheTallGuy]

Raptor III SOW (for use from the JF-17)

Mmmm..is the word!

 

[HAIDER]

South Africa need at 70 x Rooivalk order to re-start production. Engine was not an issue actually up-rated Malika 2(Easily obtained & operated) with 2200hp each is enough to give Pakistan Army aviation units enough power to operate in all geography of Pakistan.

Pakistan Army needs to do JV 58%-42% (Like JF17 Program) with South Africa. I hope Denel bring some type of offer...to Pakistan also. we can have Attack helicopter in operation within 1 year if we start the same Block built approach.

Please Pakistan Army for once purchase without prejudice and politics..Attack choppers do not need to be extremely high tech at start..block built to high tech..rough and tough able to take punishment.

I hope South African see this opportunity! they have provided us with MUPSOW/Raptor I/II/III why not bring rooivalk in consideration for export to Pakistan.



Pain is how much we are willing to pay for AH-1Z and T129 and how much we need to pay to get Roovailk JV and get ability to self assembled & later manufacture. again Engine also dont need to be high tech ...2200hp each would be enough...same like we have RD93 not high tech but do its job perfectly.

i think we have put forward 1.5 Billion US$ for 30 x T-129 (which it self is Mangusta JV by Turkey ---same story as Rooivalk) correct me if i am wrong. we can have the complete program JV and 70+ helicopter is this budget with offsets in future R&D.

Just look at it....what should have been done..and is not done..?

we do not need extreme high tech...when from 7.62 to 14.7mm bullets are fired at you ...you need tough/rough air frame able to take punishment..we do not need to over-kill it.

They are Pros and Cons...i want to here Cons...of this?

PA tested Rooivalk yearly ago... why rejected ?

 

[ziaulislam]

It's not so much the Turks or Chinese are fishy, the fishy part is why we didn't put a JV with RSA (or even Turkey/China) on the table.

I agree.

The good thing about the Rooivalk is that it's a heavyweight design, so it could serve in Pakistan in the same vein the AH-64E is in India. Yes, the Rooivalk would need an extensive electronics upgrade, and access to a millimetric wave (mmW) radar, but that's doable (we can collaborate with Turkey).

I would rather we buy all of the design rights to the Rooivalk while keeping 48% of its supply channel in South Africa. The reasoning is that if RSA stops producing its parts, we can continue in Pakistan.

Besides attack helicopters, we can also collaborate with South Africa on the following:

• Mokopa ATGM
• 70 mm laser-guided rockets
• Raptor III SOW (for use from the JF-17)
• Marlin BVRAAM (100+ km)
• A-Darter WVRAAM
• Umkhonto ER (60+ km) SAM
• Umkhonto EIR (35 km) SAM
• LGB kits
• PGB kits
• Ramjets (for supersonic-cruising anti-ship missiles, next-gen BVRAAM, etc).
• 8x8 AFVs
• 155 mm/52-cal towed-howitzer and wheeled SPH
• 155 mm/52-cal tracked SPH tech
• 105 mm/52-cal lightweight (3,800-kg) howitzer
• Cheetah C-RAM
• Defensive Aid Suites for armoured vehicles, aircraft, etc

The list goes on and on. It's a total shame that we're not taking advantage of these opportunities. I get the worry of 'not having enough time' or 'funds,' yet our gov't/generals buy time diffusing tension with India, and we're able to find funds for Chinese, Turkish, European, etc imports. Like, the PAF and PA spent nearly $1b on SAMs using older SARH technology, why not develop ARH-based SAMs using the Umkhonto as a basis?

If we want to go the Turkish route, then let's do it the right way. Let's set-up a joint-venture for the 6-ton ATAK (i.e., the one with the Turkish engine and T625's rotors, transmission, etc and other critical parts) and enter the T625's supply chain in a big way.

especially since the requirement is 200+
you will need something to replace the mi 17. it cant be an import solution
you have to build two chopper a light one to replace the bells and medium one to replace the mi 17
of course buy the off shelf heavy one if needs arise
but with requirement of 100+ for light and 200 for medium..its just not feasible or economical to buy of the shelf

even if the cots for home program is higher, all that money still goes back to employ people and developing capabilities

i am pretty sure there were several options on the table if PA, PAF, PN joined hands

 

[TheTallGuy]

PA tested Rooivalk years ago... why rejected ?

they did not test it nor entertained the request..why? this is the million $ question!