The third option for attack helicopter

[KAL-EL]

Blue thunder, Or if possible, Airwolf.

 

[MastanKhan]

View attachment 618697

https://eurasiantimes.com/frustrate...an-set-to-acquire-chinese-attack-helicopters/

Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed
Commander, Army Aviation
Pakistan Army

Z10ME

Hi,

Thank you for the post and the link---.

I am surprised is that the GHQ just woke up about the helicopter issue. Any person with a common sense and who had some grip on the US / pakistani affairs knew ahead of time that pakistan would not be getting and american helicopters or the Turkish helicopter whih have american power plants.

The best bet was the chinese helicopters---.

Pak military engineers have proven time and again that they made the chinese / russian equipment better and more reliable over the time period of its utility---.

Case in point---the RD93---its life span has seen a surprising increase over the number of hours in can operate between service and general overhauls---.

And then in the last 3 years since Pak placed the order with Turkey--the Z10 would also possibly seen some crucial updates from china to snag the pakistani order---.

See---when the pak military ordered the Turkish T129---the chinese were not sitting back---. They knew that the T1289 order would faulter---because pakistan military had not built it on solid foundations but relied on ifs and maybe and I think it will happen---.

Make a start with TOT producing our own as we are always going to be needing them in future too. China is fast catching up on different fronts of the aviation and by the time we make any headway in production they will catch up anyway. If Turkey comes up with their engine we can absorb their engine with what ever modifications required like JF 17. One can't beat product produced like "Made in Pakistan". Benefits are endless and all we need is the spirit and desire.

Hi,

With the geography that pakistan has---you simply cannot depend on high end products that are " Made In Pakistan "---. You need JV's with china and Turkey---because in times of crisis---your production lines do not falter.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Hi,

Thank you for the post and the link---.

I am surprised is that the GHQ just woke up about the helicopter issue. Any person with a common sense and who had some grip on the US / pakistani affairs knew ahead of time that pakistan would not be getting and american helicopters or the Turkish helicopter whih have american power plants.

The best bet was the chinese helicopters---.

Pak military engineers have proven time and again that they made the chinese / russian equipment better and more reliable over the time period of its utility---.

Case in point---the RD93---its life span has seen a surprising increase over the number of hours in can operate between service and general overhauls---.

And then in the last 3 years since Pak placed the order with Turkey--the Z10 would also possibly seen some crucial updates from china to snag the pakistani order---.

See---when the pak military ordered the Turkish T129---the chinese were not sitting back---. They knew that the T1289 order would faulter---because pakistan military had not built it on solid foundations but relied on ifs and maybe and I think it will happen---.



Hi,

With the geography that pakistan has---you simply cannot depend on high end products that are " Made In Pakistan "---. You need JV's with china and Turkey---because in times of crisis---your production lines do not falter.

Please tell me, how did the RD93's life span may have increased ?

 

[Sine Nomine]

I don't think WZ 10 can be categorized as a light attack helicopter, it's almost twice the weight of everything else on that list

You mean AH-64,MI-28 and Ka-52?

 

[MastanKhan]

Please tell me, how did the RD93's life span may have increased ?

Hi,

I do not know---and as I told my brother one time---I do not want to know---.

Just been hearing that one RD93 engine is hitting around 7000 hours---??? Can someone verify that---.

 

[khanasifm]

There is some official information about Z-10 from AVIC:
View attachment 618961

So compared to t-129 z-10 is one ton heavier plus it has weaker engine and lower max altitude of 4400 meters Vs 6000 Meters And looks like lower range of 800 vs 1000 km

I am sure t-129 has superior electronics/avionics and weapons package ??

finally t-129 beats z-10 in speed and no info available on maneuverability

 

[Psychic]

View attachment 618956 View attachment 618957 View attachment 618958
Below is link to a website,which put up equipment of all these systems in a table.
http://www.blueskyrotor.com/performance/equipment/ah/

Some questions:
1- Why is USA blocking sale of AH-1 and ATAK? Relations aren't that bad and this equipment isn't going to significantly alter balance of power in the region then why?
2- What's wrong with Chinese helo?
3- Other options besides Chinese helo?
4- On paper, HAL helo looks good.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think, as @Quwa we are also looking for offset deals and TOT. Turkish industries are new born and are looking for deals, this gives buyer more leverage.

Hi,

Turks have failed us in this major procurement---.

You are not getting it, the Chinese up gradations gonna be humongous this is called perfection and we'd be absorbing all of that without much difficulties. And no we were never low on cash.

Stop arguing with this fool---.

When someone says there is no imminent danger of war---step away from that person---. He is an enemy---.

Some questions:
1- Why is USA blocking sale of AH-1 and ATAK? Relations aren't that bad and this equipment isn't going to significantly alter balance of power in the region then why?
2- What's wrong with Chinese helo?
3- Other options besides Chinese helo?
4- On paper, HAL helo looks good.

Because Pakistani generals were more interested in getting green cards for their sons and daughters and themselves rather than telling the US that it fckd up---. And the OBL drama was a JV---.

 

[Sine Nomine]

1- Why is USA blocking sale of AH-1 and ATAK? Relations aren't that bad and this equipment isn't going to significantly alter balance of power in the region then why?

If i am not wrong US wants full payment for those AH-1Z's,but we desire it either to be partially funded by us and remaining by CSF or completely by CSF.
As for ATAK it uses US made turbine,there are two reasons as for as i think;

1. Stopping Turkey from gaining a foot hold in International Arms market as a full system supplier.

Arm Twisting Turkey,for it's relation with Russia by blocking turbine sales,they are hurting both financial and diplomatic matters of Turkey by doing that.

2- What's wrong with Chinese helo?

Chinese helos do have issue in hot and high areas with their turbines and electronics,with PRC pouring huge sums of money in all fields,it's likely that electronic issue has been solved but Turbine issues are still around citing the fact that PRC is still struggling with metallurgy.

3- Other options besides Chinese helo?

We havn't explored any options yet on official level,but we do have MI-35 and we can persume that Mi-28 or Ka-52 seem logical options(Mi-28 uses same Turbine as our Mi-17).

4- On paper, HAL helo looks good.

There are fields in which Bharat can be credited and Helos,seems one of them.HAL had been into Helo production since 1972 and into designing since late 80's.HAL helo is powered by Bharati version of French Safran Ardiden turbine and HAL is good enough,glad they went for AH-64 rather than going in numbers with their own machine.

 

[LKJ86]

looks like lower range of 800 vs 1000 km

855 vs 561 km

 

[TheTallGuy]

Interesting bit of info

In 1990s particularly in 1996-97 We had good business dealing with South Africa they had attack helicopter program running and requested our JV. which we rejected due to engine because it was using same engine as Atlas Oryx / Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma.which would have got us into trouble with French Manufacturer. it will sound silly but nobody saw the big picture and its true to contact french manufacture parrallel and get engines from them.

This is how we lost the opportunity of Denel Rooivalk yes i needed avionics like night fighting capability which could have easily arranged via SEGAM which was already involved with ROSE program.

what was the upside..complete weapons package TOT and airframe TOT.

An other case of Lost opportunity. I want to cry!

 

[Sinnerman108]

Hi,

I do not know---and as I told my brother one time---I do not want to know---.

Just been hearing that one RD93 engine is hitting around 7000 hours---??? Can someone verify that---.

Good.
There are many factors that determine the MTBR of a jet engine, chief among those is the turbine health.
The proverbial Achilles heel in the whole game.

An improvement in the turbine stage, means either you change the design, but majorly you improve
the turbine blades.
The single crystal manufacturing technology is isn't a 100% even with RR, PW etc.

Thus, to claim an improvement in MTBR implies ( in most cases ) a technological improvement that we are not capable of.

While we are at it, one may opt to run the Jet engine lower than the thresholds.
Maybe because it is being used in a lighter craft, or smaller load etc,
The 2 engine philosophy has much to gain here. Instead of pushing one engine beyond material limits.
put 2 engines, well below material limits. ( this opens another can of worms).

Anyway.
Ciao !

 

[Pakistani captain]

How about Z-10ME with T-129 systems and stuff

 

[xbat]

another upper hand of T129, Turkish heli is combat proven

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Interesting bit of info

In 1990s particularly in 1996-97 We had good business dealing with South Africa they had attack helicopter program running and requested our JV. which we rejected due to engine because it was using same engine as Atlas Oryx / Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma.which would have got us into trouble with French Manufacturer. it will sound silly but nobody saw the big picture and its true to contact french manufacture parrallel and get engines from them.

This is how we lost the opportunity of Denel Rooivalk yes i needed avionics like night fighting capability which could have easily arranged via SEGAM which was already involved with ROSE program.

what was the upside..complete weapons package TOT and airframe TOT.

An other case of Lost opportunity. I want to cry!

We can still pick up the Rooivalk (i.e., Rooivalk Mk2).

The advantage of the Rooivalk here is that the engine (Safran Makila) is an older design, and the only business Safran Group is getting from it is for a few Super Pumas and, if lucky, some Caracals. I expect Safran wants to move to its next-gen engines, so if we pay them for it, we could get turnkey ToT for the Makila-series.

We could buy the entire Rooivalk Mk2 project and bring its RSA team to Pakistan. With them, we could look at integrating the Makila 2 to the Rooivalk, and work on creating commonality between the Rooivalk Mk2 and the Airbus H225M Caracal. To get French support, we could leverage our aging Pumas, Sea Kings and Mi-8s (if any haven't been replaced by Mi-17s) to get H225Ms off-the-shelf from them (in order to get Rooivalk tech and to replace older helicopters economically, i.e., with same engine and critical parts as Rooivalk).

Where there's a will, there's a way. Like, we're talking about a third world country with nuclear weapons and now a FGFA project here. The only enemy we have is our lack of vision and recurring flaw of letting outside interests throw us off, while tainting people who do want Pakistan to thrive with suspicion or ridicule.