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The Religion of Secularism

How many times its been said, Secularism is separation of religion from government affairs. You can be as religious as you want to and yet be secular.

Don't mix secularism with atheism, which may be regarded as a belief system. Secularism is not the absence of beliefs, its the irrelevance of belief to governance. It's purpose is not to put religion on the back burner, its purpose is to promote equality of all people regardless of their religion.

Our people hear secularism and their pitch forks are raised immediately since they have been told to believe the lie that with secularism, atheism would follow.
 
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How many times its been said, Secularism is separation of religion from government affairs. You can be as religious as you want to and yet be secular.

Don't mix secularism with atheism, which may be regarded as a belief system. Secularism is not the absence of beliefs, its the irrelevance of belief to governance. It's purpose is not to put religion on the back burner, its purpose is to promote equality of all people regardless of their religion.

Our people hear secularism and their pitch forks are raised immediately since they have been told to believe the lie that with secularism, atheism would follow.

Yes but religion is a driving motivation to the common man. In the end, a secular government will work best with non-religious people...

Turkey might be working well, but a lot of turkish sure aren't happy about it...
 
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How many times its been said, Secularism is separation of religion from government affairs. You can be as religious as you want to and yet be secular.

Don't mix secularism with atheism, which may be regarded as a belief system. Secularism is not the absence of beliefs, its the irrelevance of belief to governance. It's purpose is not to put religion on the back burner, its purpose is to promote equality of all people regardless of their religion.

Our people hear secularism and their pitch forks are raised immediately since they have been told to believe the lie that with secularism, atheism would follow.
You have been amongst the more saner and sensible Pakistanis i have seen in this forum ; There are some words of true wisdom in there. I hope people in Pakistan like you not become averse to this notion of secularism, because it is my sincere belief that secularism breeds tolerance breeds humanity.
 
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Yes but religion is a driving motivation to the common man. In the end, a secular government will work best with non-religious people...

Turkey might be working well, but a lot of turkish sure aren't happy about it...

Wrong is wrong, religious people should not favor wrong things either.

You're imposing an injustice of humanity, you're imposing your will, your religion, curbing someone's freedom, making them a second class citizen, not to mention you're essentially weakening your own nation by making millions of people outcasts within their own country.

Religion sides with the wrong?

Secularism works for real religious people. The people who want to worship God and not use the name of God to advance their own political career. The people who want to feel a connection in their own personal way to the supreme being and not use it to enforce some sort of superiority.

Sorry theocracy would not appeal to religious people, it would appeal to politicians, in our case known as the Mullahs.

Step out of Pakistan and into modern Muslim societies, people are sick of Mullahocracies and want religion to remain out of government but not out of their personal lives.

True secularists would fight against theocratic laws and would fight for the Muslims right to wear the hijab, eat Halaal food, and build mosques for their worship.
 
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Yaar Kugga Chachu,
This is a secular forum...did you ever notice any member stopping you to pray or stop practising your belief? what secularists does is they promote Free Speech upto death and treat everybody equally regardless of their colour, identity or background.

This is exactly what Islam also says.... (kisi arbi ko ajmi se aur ajmi ko arbi se koi fazeelat hasil nahi)... now the difference is we Muslims in our emotions sometimes violate the secular part of our religion and interfere in others matters unnecessarily but the secularists first and last principle is set to follow and promote free speech as if they don't....they will no longer be called a secularist

It has nothing to do with religion, it is just an ideology.... It is a principle of your life...... not the worshipping of God (as is the case for religion)
 
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Yeah right, atheism is a religion. Just like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Atheism is a religion.

Atheism IS a religion. I know that some have made that statement without much evidence. And I know that atheists themselves heatedly deny it. I’ve heard their rejoinders: If atheism is a religion, then not playing baseball is a sport. Or, atheism is to religion what bald is to hair color. Clever. I guess I don’t blame them for denying it, but denying something doesn’t prove it is not there. (I would advise any atheist readers to re-read the previous sentence until BOTH meanings sink in.)

A religion doesn’t have to posit a god who must be identified or worshiped. Some religions are polytheistic (Hinduism, Mormonism), some monotheistic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), some non-theistic (Buddhism). I’d say the new atheists and their religion are “anti-theistic.” But their atheism is religious nonetheless. Consider this:
They have their own worldview. Materialism (the view that the material world is all there is) is the lens through which atheists view the world. Far from being the open-minded, follow-the-evidence-wherever thinkers they claim to be, they interpret all data ONLY within the very narrow worldview of materialism. They are like a guy wearing dark sunglasses who chides all others for thinking the sun is out.
They have their own orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is a set of beliefs acceptable to a faith community. Just as there are orthodox Christian beliefs, there is an atheist orthodoxy as well. In brief, it is that EVERYTHING can be explained as the product of unintentional, undirected, purposeless evolution. No truth claim is acceptable if it cannot be subjected to scientific scrutiny.
They have their own brand of apostasy. Apostasy is to abandon one’s former religious faith. Antony Flew was for many years one of the world’s most prominent atheists. And then he did the unthinkable: he changed his mind. You can imagine the response of the “open-minded, tolerant” New Atheist movement. Flew was vilified. Richard Dawkins accused Flew of “tergiversation.” It’s a fancy word for apostasy. By their own admission, then, Flew abandoned their “faith.”
They have their own prophets: Nietzsche, Russell, Feuerbach, Lenin, Marx.
They have their own messiah: He is, of course, Charles Darwin. Darwin – in their view – drove the definitive stake through the heart of theism by providing a comprehensive explanation of life that never needs God as a cause or explanation. Daniel Dennett has even written a book seeking to define religious faith itself as merely an evolutionary development.
They have their own preachers and evangelists. And boy, are they “evangelistic.” Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens (Speaking of which, our prayers goes out to Christopher Hitchens in hopes of a speedy recovery for his cancer, we need more time with him Lord) are NOT out to ask that atheism be given respect. They are seeking converts. They are preaching a “gospel” calling for the end of theism.
They have faith. That’s right, faith. They would have you believe the opposite. Their writings ridicule faith, condemn faith. Harris’s book is called The End of Faith. But theirs is a faith-based enterprise. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven. To deny it takes faith. Evolution has no explanation for why our universe is orderly, predictable, measurable. In fact (atheistic) evolutionary theory has no rational explanation for why there is such a thing as rational explanation. There is no accounting for the things they hope you won’t ask: Why do we have self-awareness? What makes us conscious? From what source is there a universal sense of right and wrong? They just take such unexplained things by … faith.

There are days when evil and suffering are hard to explain, even for the most ardent follower of God. There are questions we cannot answer. There are days when every honest Christian will admit doubt. But we don’t become atheists. It is because our soul JUST KNOWS that God is there. And maybe because atheism is a religion that requires too much untenable faith.
Not only is Atheism a religion, the entire premise is a negative proof fallacy.

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BTW I have read this sentence many time on internet. You must have copied it from their.
 
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Don't mix secularism with atheism, which may be regarded as a belief system.

Secularism is not the absence of beliefs, its the irrelevance of belief to governance.

It's purpose is not to put religion on the back burner, its purpose is to promote equality of all people regardless of their religion.

Asim, please do not try to propose secularism as a prerequisite for equality.

It can be argued that equality can be guaranteed even within a religious state.

My question to all:
should a state abolish religion because the instruments of state fail to ensure equality?

Secondly how do we define equality ? and what conditions should be met to qualify human equality ?


Thirdly, which religions / belief systems if any advocate discrimination and what kind of discrimination?
 
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Yes but religion is a driving motivation to the common man. In the end, a secular government will work best with non-religious people...

Turkey might be working well, but a lot of turkish sure aren't happy about it...
Have you conducted any surveys in Turkey? Please feel free to provide any studies linking religion to happiness. People that are happiest are usually have access to basic things like education, food etc. You can rule out the most of Muslim world based on that :).
 
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How many times its been said, Secularism is separation of religion from government affairs. You can be as religious as you want to and yet be secular.

Don't mix secularism with atheism, which may be regarded as a belief system. Secularism is not the absence of beliefs, its the irrelevance of belief to governance. It's purpose is not to put religion on the back burner, its purpose is to promote equality of all people regardless of their religion.

Our people hear secularism and their pitch forks are raised immediately since they have been told to believe the lie that with secularism, atheism would follow.


knock out :tup:

agree 100% :toast_sign:
 
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First -- Religion is never a NO-SHOW card for other religious groups/minorities.

Second -- It is the democratric character, that gaurantees participation and equality of all, not the secular way of governace.

Third -- Secularism is just a fear response to debar one group of people (religion based governament supporters) to put and practice thier view, which is by itself is UNDEMOCRATIC actually. India also practices secularism but then there are many parties that are vowing to abolish it once they are in decisive power. Indian democratic system DO NOT DISQUALIFY them from democratic contests! This is the democratic response ! Secularism is essential for India because of the vast diversity in ethinic and religious groups in this country. But then one medicine is not for ALL. If secularism is essential for India with 250 Million+ religious minorities (excluding the religious diversity among the majority community itself) then it may not be a pill for Pakistan with few lakhs of religious minorities ( less than 4% of total population).

Ref: Population Association of Pakistan-Statistics

So secularism is just a FEAR response. Fear response, to the inability, of its supporters to provide a VIABLE, PRACTICLE, CORRUPTION FREE, JUST AND FAIR governace to the population! So the best way they look to as a solution is to blanket ban on exposing their mis-deeds. And so they CUT the religious parties from contesting and trying to put an alternative to the CORRUPT, IN-EFFICIENT and FUTILE governace in the country. They give the excuse for a few lakh minorities but at the same time CURBING the potential options for hundreds of million of majority of population. Persecution of minorities is a failure of judicial system, first, then, after this, it is a religious mis-practice by its supporters. It is no excuse for a country with miniscule minority population to blanket their faults!

Fighter
 
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First -- Religion is never a NO-SHOW card for other religious groups/minorities.

Second -- It is the democratric character, that gaurantees participation and equality of all, not the secular way of governace.

Third -- Secularism is just a fear response to debar one group of people (religion based governament supporters) to put and practice thier view, which is by itself is UNDEMOCRATIC actually. India also practices secularism but then there are many parties that are vowing to abolish it once they are in decisive power. Indian democratic system DO NOT DISQUALIFY them from democratic contests! This is the democratic response ! Secularism is essential for India because of the vast diversity in ethinic and religious groups in this country. But then one medicine is not for ALL. If secularism is essential for India with 250 Million+ religious minorities (excluding the religious diversity among the majority community itself) then it may not be a pill for Pakistan with few lakhs of religious minorities ( less than 4% of total population).

Ref: Population Association of Pakistan-Statistics

So secularism is just a FEAR response. Fear response, to the inability, of its supporters to provide a VIABLE, PRACTICLE, CORRUPTION FREE, JUST AND FAIR governace to the population! So the best way they look to as a solution is to blanket ban on exposing their mis-deeds. And so they CUT the religious parties from contesting and trying to put an alternative to the CORRUPT, IN-EFFICIENT and FUTILE governace in the country. They give the excuse for a few lakh minorities but at the same time CURBING the potential options for hundreds of million of majority of population. Persecution of minorities is a failure of judicial system, first, then, after this, it is a religious mis-practice by its supporters. It is no excuse for a country with miniscule minority population to blanket their faults!

Fighter

All non christian population in United States make up almost 4% of total population, should they declare them as Christian state as well?
 
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Yaar Kugga Chachu,
This is a secular forum...did you ever notice any member stopping you to pray or stop practising your belief? what secularists does is they promote Free Speech upto death and treat everybody equally regardless of their colour, identity or background.

This is exactly what Islam also says.... (kisi arbi ko ajmi se aur ajmi ko arbi se koi fazeelat hasil nahi)... now the difference is we Muslims in our emotions sometimes violate the secular part of our religion and interfere in others matters unnecessarily but the secularists first and last principle is set to follow and promote free speech as if they don't....they will no longer be called a secularist

It has nothing to do with religion, it is just an ideology.... It is a principle of your life...... not the worshipping of God (as is the case for religion)

Secularism is a way people lead there life, isn't it what we say a religion is ?? if something is common in Islam and Secularism why not choose Islam ??
Secularism says it makes laws according to what majority thinks if the majority wants me to be killed I will be killed.... no criteria , no rule nothing will be hindrance in doing so....
Secularism finds drives laws from majority , GOD of Secularism is nation who make laws...

In taaza khudaaon mein bara sb sey watan hai
jo pairhan iska hai, woh mazhab ka kafan hai

P.S. - I am not against humans making laws, but some laws are not meant to be made by humans.
 
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Fighter, this is for you to read and introspect.

Can Islam And Secularism Dialogue With Each Other? | Indian Muslims


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Can Islam And Secularism Dialogue With Each Other? | Indian Muslims

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By Maulana Waris Mazhari,

The question of whether or not there can be a dialogue between Islam and secularism is a particularly pertinent one today. Many Muslims, including the vast majority of ulema and Islamists, believe that these ideologies are polar opposites. Hence, they insist, there is no possibility of arriving at even a minimum consensus between the two.

Yet, the question of dialogue between Islam and secularism remains one of particular importance, especially in the context of the rights of Muslims living as minorities in non-Muslim-majority countries. Numerous non-Muslim scholars and even some noted Muslim intellectuals (such as the Pakistani writer Mubarak Ali, the Indian Islamic scholar Maulana Wahiduddin Khan, and the late Professor Mushirul Haq) complain that where Muslims are in a majority, they brand secularism as ‘anti-Islamic’ and a threat to Islam and its followers, but where they are in a minority, they regard it as a blessing. Furthermore, where they are in a minority, they seem to argue for a secular state but, at the same time, insist that Muslims must remain safe from secularism.

These intellectual contradictions, which abound in our ulema and Islamist circles, must be resolved if we are not to be accused of double-standards. It is primarily the responsibility of the ulema and other ‘lovers of Islam’ to address this task with the urgency it deserves.

To cite an instance of such intellectual sophistry, in several of his Urdu works a noted, recently-deceased, Indian Islamic scholar described secularism in India as a ‘shady tree’ that must be protected and strengthened. At the same time, in his copious Arabic writings, aimed at Arab scholars and readers, he decried secularism in no uncertain terms. The same sort of contradiction may be observed, to an even greater degree, in the case of the ideologues and activists of the Jamaat-e Islami of India. Those of them who consider any minor departure from the thought of the Jamaat’s founder, Syed Abul Ala Maududi, to be damaging to Islam itself agree wholeheartedly with Maududi’s claim of secularism being a form of ‘infidelity’ (kufr). To my mind, these people are victims of a pathetic form of personality-worship and literalism.

On the other hand are some other individuals also influenced by Maududi’s thought, but who, after sixty years or so of lambasting secularism and hoping in vain for establishing in India what Maududi termed ‘Divine Government’ (hukumat-e ilahiya) or the Islamic Caliphate, have only just begun to realize that this utterly fanciful agenda is proving to be seriously counter-productive, creating immense hurdles in the path of Islamic missionary work and in the struggle for the rights of religious minorities, including Muslims, in India. It is striking to note here that these people have been compelled to accept secularism as the best available option. Theirs is not a choice willingly made, but one which they feel themselves forced, almost against their will, to accept because they realize that in India they have no other realistic option—the only alternative to a secular state in India being a Hindu state. This dualism in their thought is both a product as well as an indicator of the utter confusion and chaos that characterises contemporary Muslim political thought.

In this regard, the question must be raised that if such people do not willingly accept secularism or actually believe in it, but have been forced by circumstance (the fact of Muslims being in a minority in India) to pay lip-service to it, how far can they truly be loyal to a system based on secularism? How far can they help such a system if they have chosen to support secularism out of compulsion and not out of choice and conviction?

The emotionally-driven slogans of these people clamoring for what they call ‘Divine Government’ and the Caliphate in India have given added ammunition to anti-Muslim Hindutva forces in the country. Thus, in an interview given to the Urdu weekly Friday Special, the top BJP leader and former Home Minister Murli Manohar Joshi argued that if the Jamaat-e islami could talk of establishing an Islamic state in India, there was nothing wrong if the RSS demanded that India be declared a Hindu state.

It is an undeniable fact that Muslim religious leaders have grossly misunderstood the meaning of secularism in its true sense. They see secularism as wholly opposed to religion. This is reflected in the general tendency in Urdu circles to translate secularism as ‘irreligiousness’ (la-diniyat). This is completely incorrect. In actual fact, secularism does not imply anti-religiousness. Rather, it simply means that the state follows a policy of non-interference in the religious affairs of all its citizens.

There are two basic factors for the extremely erroneous understanding and interpretation of secularism in Islamic circles. One of these is the prevalence of a very narrow and restricted understanding of Islam. The second is the tendency to equate secularism with a certain strand of Western secularism that seeks not just to remove keep religion out of politics but also to uproot religion from society and from people’s lives. However, the fact remains that there is not just one form of secularism. Rather, it can be understood, interpreted, expressed and practically implemented diversely and in an expansive and flexible manner. Thus, for instance, a noted Arab scholar, Abdul Wahhab Masiri, speaks of two types of secularism. The first is what he calls ‘total secularism’ or ‘comprehensive secularism (al-ilmaniya ash-shamila), and the other ‘partial secularism’ (al-ilmaniya al-juziya). The former does not have any place at all for religion in the lives of individuals and society, while the latter provides for religion to be kept apart from politics, especially in plural societies, where this is the only practicable solution.

Theocratic rule is a notion that is foreign in Islam, which has no room for priesthood. According to the famous Egyptian Islamic scholar, Mufti Muhammad Abduh, an Islamic government is a ‘civil government’ (al-dawlah al-madaniya). A ‘civil government’, he explains, is one that is established on the basis of human welfare and works for this purpose, keeping in mind the comprehensive interests of its citizens. In a similar vein, the noted thirteenth century Islamic scholar Izz Ibn Abdus Salam wrote in his Qawaid al-Ahkam, ‘The aim of the shariah is to put an end to evil and strife and their causes and to promote the interests [of people] and the causes thereof.’ He further added, ‘People’s interests as well as evils and strife and the causes thereof are indentified through human experience, customs and [other] reliable means.’ This suggests the importance of human experience in devising structures, processes, and policies of governance.

It is not true to claim, as many Islamist ideologues and ulema do, that the ‘Righteous Caliphate’, the period of the first four Sunni Caliphs, has elaborated, expressed and fixed for all time all the features and details of Islamic government and governance. It is well-known that Abu Bakr nominated Umar as his successor, while the latter set up a committee of six persons to decide his successor. Obviously, this indicates, the methods of choosing a leader can differ according to the context.

The ‘Righteous Caliphate’ lasted, in practical terms, for a very short period of only thirty years. Undoubtedly, this system of governance was based on social justice and human welfare. However, to consider it the final Islamic model would mean accepting the argument that this model could not be realistically applied in later stages of history, and that it was rendered incapable of being applied after a short period of three decades.

Certain indispensable modifications in the concept of Islamic government had to be made in the early Islamic period itself, and this was accepted at both the ideological as well as practical levels. For instance, the later ulema and Islamic commentators rebutted the literal import of hadith reports that suggested that the Caliph must be from the tribe of Quraish. Likewise, the notion that there must be a single Caliph for Imam for the entire Islamic world was also negated. The noted twentieth century Indian Muslim thinker Allama Muhammad Iqbal went to the extent of claiming in his acclaimedmagnum opus Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam that in today’s world a single Muslim ummah simply does not exist. Rather, he argued, the world’s Muslims consist of several different communities, and recognized that it was difficult for all of them to form a single commonwealth.

From this discussion, it clearly emerges that human experience plays a major role in the construction of the state structures. New human experiences emerge with changing times and conditions, and these need to be incorporated in crafting patterns and processes of governance, contrary to what doctrinaire Islamists and ulema might argue. This is also indicated in the Quran, which speaks of monarchy as being a blessing from God (5: 20) although in today we are all aware of the pitfalls of this form of governance. In this regard, all we can say is that monarchy was more suited to the context and times this particular verse of the Quran referred to, although for today democracy is for more preferable.

A vital basis for dialogue between Islam and secularism, and evidence that such dialogue is indeed acceptable in terms of theshariah, is the polity established in Medina by the Prophet. The Constitution of this polity was, in a sense, based on the same princples that secularism (in its widely-accepted Indian sense) is founded on—equality and respect for the religious freedom of all communities. The leading ulema of the Deoband school, it is instructive to note, invoked the Constitution of Medina to legitimize their role in their struggle for a united and free India.

The noted Deobandi scholar Maulana Saeed Ahmad Akbaradi was of the view that there was no contradiction between Islam and secularism, as understood in its particular Indian sense. This approach to both secularism and Islam, I believe, is the only practicable one for plural societies today, and can serve as a firm basis for a meaningful dialogue between Islam and secularism, and between believing Muslims and secularists.

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(Maulana Waris Mazhari is the editor of the New Delhi-based monthly Tarjuman Dar ul-Uloom, the official organ of the Graduates’ Association of the Deoband madrasa. He can be contacted on w.mazhari@gmail.com

(Translated from Urdu by Yoginder Sikand)

(Yoginder Sikand works with the Centre for the Study of Social Exclusion at the National Law School, Bangalore.)
 
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Secularism says it makes laws according to what majority thinks if the majority wants me to be killed I will be killed.... no criteria , no rule nothing will be hindrance in doing so....

Religion doesn't have a monopoly on morals. Don't be ridiculous, people who don't believe in a deity, don't think that killing people is alright and religious people are just as capable of doing horribles things to other people as anyone else as history has demonstrated time and again.
 
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