The Religion of Secularism

[RamGorur]

Referring to bold part in your mail: What ever be the optimal level, it would not be enough to OFF-SET the majority, in a country like Pakistan! Right! Saudia are NOT democratic by any yardstick, so they are out of question here. And as I mentioned Indian scene is quite different to that of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.

I am also endorsing the same point that Maudoodi ideology is not acceptable in India. Simmiler is the case with RSS and thier idealogues.

Fighter

You are basically saying a watered down version of the following:

...where Muslims are in a majority, they brand secularism as ‘anti-Islamic’ and a threat to Islam and its followers, but where they are in a minority, they regard it as a blessing. Furthermore, where they are in a minority, they seem to argue for a secular state but, at the same time, insist that Muslims must remain safe from secularism.

Instead of the term 'anti-Islam' you are saying 'anti-majority'. Now the question is, just to rephrase what Abir has raised, how much majority is good enough for secularism. Or for that matter, what is the difference between 97% majority, 80% majority or 51% majority?

How much minority is enough to 'off-set' the majority. (If minority can off-set the majority, it would no longer be minority and will itself become majority.)

 

[somebozo]

Secularism is a political term nothing to do with religion...even thinking something such is ridiculous. The politics for most part of human civilization have remained secular and only at time got tainted by religion under rule of dictators and irrational monarchs!

 

[Tuahaa]

Religious laws dictating a person's way of life is always necessary, provided that the religion has high morals.

For example:

Secular government = okay to kill unborn babies.

Religious government = not okay to kill unborn babies.

In personal opinion, it is very difficult to separate religion from state as it ends up in frustration amongst the masses somehow.

We all know that alcohol is a slow poison to society (I have had 7 years of living in a country like that- I got experience). Okay, so you are religious. You won't drink, you won't do drugs. Say you are living in a Muslim country with secular government. Since your government is secular, they won't enforce it upon your neighbors. Your neighbors are not religious (or 'secular') and hence won't apply this rule regarding alcohol and drugs. Now, even though you are living in a Muslim country, your neighbors will continue to deteriorate the environment of the community and you will have to suffer because they lack the religion to do so.

Secularism can stay in secular countries. I do not want it in a Muslim country. It is a similar case to Pakistan. Our lives often revolve around religion (albeit education about religion is needed), but what do our politicians do? Corruption, something punishable to death in Islam.

 

[Fighter488]

You are basically saying a watered down version of the following:

...where Muslims are in a majority, they brand secularism as ‘anti-Islamic’ and a threat to Islam and its followers, but where they are in a minority, they regard it as a blessing. Furthermore, where they are in a minority, they seem to argue for a secular state but, at the same time, insist that Muslims must remain safe from secularism.

Instead of the term 'anti-Islam' you are saying 'anti-majority'. Now the question is, just to rephrase what Abir has raised, how much majority is good enough for secularism. Or for that matter, what is the difference between 97% majority, 80% majority or 51% majority?

How much minority is enough to 'off-set' the majority. (If minority can off-set the majority, it would no longer be minority and will itself become majority.)

Kindly type your defnition in bold with capitalized letter, take a print and keep it a place where you can see it day-in day-out to boost your ego and self belief. It is no more than a feed to the corrupt idea you have about muslims in India and else where.

The idea of majority and minority came from west, where their were miniscule populations, and majority and minority concept is put to supress alternate view by a larger group. They projected thier EXCLUSIVE policies as INCLUSIVE and called it DEMOCRATIC and SECULAR (while confronting the egoistic and scientifically wrong church).

The question of 80%, or 51% do not arise at all when you try to take in to account the ACTUAL number rather than ambigous percentages, in eastern populated areas, such as Indo-Pak sub continent !

Hope some of the dirt is off from the myopic view you and your friends, enjoy to have.

Fighter

 

[Tuahaa]

at least they wont call me Infidel or Kaffir or Pagan. I will take that over any other "purist practioner" of any religion.

The core of secularism is tolerance, Atheism or Agnostics are different from secularism. The core of Atheism or Agnositcs is reason. They do not want me to believe in a "virgin giving birth to a child" or claiming a successful general winning 100 wars as "Gods own General" or some other stupid story that has no realism but a "miracle".

Either way, I believe in God, may be because of my upbringing, but I will take a Secularist/Atheist/Agnostic over practioner of any "religion" only because even if they are intolerant, they are reasonable.

Everyone is intolerant to some degree... every atheist I've met thinks that they're 'superior' when it comes to religion. This is not a debate of what religion is right and what religion is wrong. As far as reasoning goes, abortion is not reasoning. When you kill a pregnant mother, it's called 'double homocide'. Murder is forbidden in Islam, Christianity, Judaism and the likes- but seculars allow abortion- the killing of an unborn child.

The arabs, before the coming of islam, used to bury their female children alive. Even in India (I'm not trying to offend, I'm giving a local example), there are more males than women for a similar reason. This is the same in China. Why do atheists and seculars or those that are not bound by religion insist on killing unborn children? Is it because they are superior, believe in 'science', etc, etc? NO!

Moral laws are just as important as justice laws. And morals are something that is become increasingly absent in this world.

 

[KS]

Kindly type your defnition in bold with capitalized letter, take a print and keep it a place where you can see it day-in day-out to boost your ego and self belief. It is no more than a feed to the corrupt idea you have about muslims in India and else where.

The idea of majority and minority came from west, where their were miniscule populations, and majority and minority concept is put to supress alternate view by a larger group. They projected thier EXCLUSIVE policies as INCLUSIVE and called it DEMOCRATIC and SECULAR (while confronting the egoistic and scientifically wrong church).

The question of 80%, or 51% do not arise at all when you try to take in to account the ACTUAL number rather than ambigous percentages, in eastern populated areas, such as Indo-Pak sub continent !

Hope some of the dirt is off from the myopic view you and your friends, enjoy to have.

Fighter

So Muslims in India are not a minority ..? Is that what you are trying to say ?

 

[justanobserver]

The idea of majority and minority came from west, where their were miniscule populations, and majority and minority concept is put to supress alternate view by a larger group. They projected thier EXCLUSIVE policies as INCLUSIVE and called it DEMOCRATIC and SECULAR (while confronting the egoistic and scientifically wrong church).

Ok tell me which government do you approve of?

Kindly type your defnition in bold with capitalized letter, take a print and keep it a place where you can see it day-in day-out to boost your ego and self belief. It is no more than a feed to the corrupt idea you have about muslims in India and else where.

He does have a point, all the Islamic republics have discrimination enshrined in their Constitution.

So tell me fighter, which government to you approve of?

The Secular Muslim countries (like Turkey) pursue secularism rigorously, to the extent of suppressing religion

China is an atheistic state

USA/EU are secular, but they're apparently the 'axis of evil'

So what exactly is your point?

 

[justanobserver]

The idea of majority and minority came from west, where their were miniscule populations,

eh?

USA is 15% Hispanic

China only has 80% Han majority

Are you only looking thorough the narrow prism of religion (it sure seems so)?

 

[Tuahaa]

Because religion is supposed to unite races... and it has done so before.

 

[Fighter488]

Speaking by numbers, YES, muslims are no minority in India. ~200 million is a minority? You tell me.

 

[justanobserver]

Speaking by numbers, YES, muslims are no minority in India. ~200 million is a minority? You tell me.

So what is your point? You want Islamic laws ? What is it that you want? Sharia?

Because religion is supposed to unite races... and it has done so before.

 

[Fighter488]

Ok tell me which government do you approve of?


He does have a point, all the Islamic republics have discrimination enshrined in their Constitution.

So tell me fighter, which government to you approve of?

The Secular Muslim countries (like Turkey) pursue secularism rigorously, to the extent of suppressing religion

China is an atheistic state

USA/EU are secular, but they're apparently the 'axis of evil'

So what exactly is your point?

Who you are to ask any muslim like this? Some superior authority?
Get rid of your sickness before requesting a sane debate.

Fighter

 

[Spring Onion]

So Muslims in India are not a minority ..? Is that what you are trying to say ?

A majority without a voice. A majority suppressed by minority (read saffron system)

 

[justanobserver]

@Fighter488
What is my sickness? You are the one who is saying secularism is bad, so I'm asking which kind of government is good (and preferable).

How is that remotely offensive?

 

[Ahmad]

Because religion is supposed to unite races... and it has done so before.

well, but religion is the cause of division as well, depends on how you see it.