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The Problem With the Global Left

Transition! That is it, one word(only commonality between Indian and western right, both heading in diametrically opposite directions though, one seeking ascension in India's case and the other mere status quo for as long as possible). Old order is dying, in U.S., U.K and Europe... as it is always, those who find themselves cornered will fight the hardest and resist till the very end. Obama was a glimpse in the future for white America of what will it look like and it's leadership and they didn't like what they saw... it is plain and simple. The hatred was palpable and on your face(and to be honest Obama over corrected to appease them as much as possible). People can blame Hillary or her politics but most Americans saw her as a continuation of Obama, heck, they even called it Obama's third term. Who got elected, the guy who pretty much started the birther movement. The story is in a similar spectrum in U.K. and E.U. where old guard is digging in their heels...
India has nothing in common with this whole paradigm so I don't know why the author even bothered to draw some kind of a parallel. Indian youth is seeking to come out of what is essentially a historic case of low self esteem ... they want someone who changes this loosing paradigm and shows the world how macho India is and by resorting to hindutva, a pseudo historical narrative has been concocted to show a hope for future. So, no wonder western right and more aptly alt. Right has nothing in common with Indian right.
The article doesn't argue that the right have something in common between countries quite the opposite. The article rather says it's the left which is common. So, your comments should be targeted at Indian and American left's differences.
 
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The article doesn't argue that the right have something in common between countries quite the opposite. The article rather says it's the left which is common. So, your comments should be targeted at Indian and American left's differences.
Left is dealing with inherent contradictions both socially and economically, staying true to cause is not possible when the utopia you desire requires to be constantly bailed out or seeks sweat shops in third world countries(though they do pay lip service) ... universal healthcare or free education or higher taxes on the rich are not possible if economy is petering out... likewise, social experimentation at the cost of major cultural norms or political correctness can only win you minorities as you can only go that far by constantly rocking the boat. That being said, though left is more ideologically true than right or alt. right(which even accepts far left social ideals such as homosexuality), it has a varied spectrum as noted in the article even U.S. Democrats are to the right of Tory party in both U.K. and Canada... but that is only again a western dynamic and I don't see India as a parallel, which still has a fairly closed economy and socially all over the place.
 
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Left is dealing with inherent contradictions both socially and economically, staying true to cause is not possible when the utopia you desire requires to be constantly bailed out or seeks sweat shops in third world countries(though they do pay lip service) ... universal healthcare or free education or higher taxes on the rich are not possible if economy is petering out... likewise, social experimentation at the cost of major cultural norms or political correctness can only win you minorities as you can only go that far by constantly rocking the boat. That being said, though left is more ideologically true than right or alt. right(which even accepts far left social ideals such as homosexuality), it has a varied spectrum as noted in the article even U.S. Democrats are to the right of Tory party in both U.K. and Canada... but that is only again a western dynamic and I don't see India as a parallel, which still has a fairly closed economy and socially all over the place.
How many of these boxes will you tick as correct for American and Indian left respectively?
The Snapshot
  • The Left’s collapse across the world has been fueled by 3 factors:
    • Disconnect to local issues
    • Demonization of majorities
    • Lackluster economic dividends for worker classes
 
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How many of these boxes will you tick as correct for American and Indian left respectively?

The Snapshot

* The Left’s collapse across the world has been fueled by 3 factors:

-
* Disconnect to local issues
* Demonization of majorities
* Lackluster economic dividends for worker classes

I don't think left is disconnected from local issues, in fact this is their bread and butter... they revel in inflating issues out of proportion but that feeds into alienating majorities especially when economy is not doing well... hence that famous Clinton idiom...
Modi was running on a populist platform in 2014, one that showed him as a can do guy... I wonder if he had won without such sloganeering but that flips diametrically in his reelection where he didn't remain true to his hype of an economic miracle man... but did get reelected instead on machismo and hindutva platform.
 
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Pakistani left thinks the partition was a wrong decision, that our true culture is Bharatnatyam and Durga Puja and the army is responsible for everything wrong with Pakistan. They'll support any wicked movement as long as it threatens Pakistan. Bhutto and his c*nt of a daughter Benazir are their rahbars/guiding lights.

You may say that I a non-Pakistani would not know the dynamics in Pakistani politics but I think you don't know much about the Pakistani Left. From Faiz Ahmed Faiz's attempted coup in 1951 to Malala to the late Mashal Khan to the Laal music band to now possibly Arooj Aurangzeb.

Here's a message from Malala from 2013 :
Comrade Javed Iqbal, a Pakistani comrade from Birmingham in the UK, intervened to read out a message that had been sent from Malala Yousafzai, the young sympathiser of the Marxist Tendency famous for her part in the struggle for the right to education for girls in Pakistan. She had taken part in the national Marxist Summer School in July of last year in Swat. She was tragically shot in the head in a barbaric attack by fundamentalists, and made headlines worldwide. She is now thankfully recovering in the UK.

The message she sent reads as follows:

“First of all I’d like to thank The Struggle and the IMT for giving me a chance to speak last year at their Summer Marxist School in Swat and also for introducing me to Marxism and Socialism. I just want to say that in terms of education, as well as other problems in Pakistan, it is high time that we did something to tackle them ourselves. It’s important to take the initiative. We cannot wait around for any one else to come and do it. Why are we waiting for someone else to come and fix things? Why aren’t we doing it ourselves?

“I would like to send my heartfelt greetings to the congress. I am convinced Socialism is the only answer and I urge all comrades to take this struggle to a victorious conclusion. Only this will free us from the chains of bigotry and exploitation.”​


From an older PDF post from 2011 :
For over two decades, Pakistan’s socio-political landscape has been dominated by narratives and actions of the religious right.

Those concerned by the right’s onslaught and dominance have bemoaned the decline and defeat of the country’s ‘moderate’ and liberal polities, rightly complaining that their voices have been drowned.

The religious right’s growing intolerance, intimidation and sometimes outright violence (ever since the 1980s), has actually helped it control and almost monopolise Pakistan’s religious and political discourse, allowing the spread of various right-wing fringe groups.

Though both the religious right and liberal sections of the population still have their mainstream political outlets, it is the religious right that is ruling the roost when it comes to visible militancy and affective propaganda.

But it wasn’t always like that. Below we look at the once thriving militant expressions of secular and left-wing Pakistan that offered stiff resistance to right-wing militancy but today lie forgotten under the cruel heap of contemporary history.

Red Guards

Group formed by the workers of the left-wing Democratic Students Federation (DSF) in 1955.

DSF was Pakistan’s largest student organisation in the 1950s, but it was banned by the government for being the student-wing of the Communist Party of Pakistan (CPP) that too was banned for allegedly indulging in ‘anti-state activities.’

The Red Guards was put together to (physically) tackle the police and pro-government student groups on the eve of DSF’s attempt to initiate another student organisation (All Pakistan Students Organization).

The Red Guards – made up of pro-DSF toughies – clashed with the police and government-sponsored hoodlums who were sent to disrupt APSO’s launch in Karachi but were able to keep them at bay.

The Red Guards were armed with chains, knives and knuckle-dusters. Some ex-members maintain they also had a few pistols but they were never used.

The outfit was disbanded with the rise of another left-wing student organisation, the National Students Federation (NSF), in the late 1950s.

Further reading: Through a Pakistani’s Eyes: Life on Three Continents –Dr. S Akhtar Ehtisham (Algora Publications)

National Students Federation (Meraj)(NSF)

NSF was the country’s largest and most influential student group in Pakistan in the 1960s, in spite of the fact that it broke into various pro-China and pro-Moscow factions after 1965.

Among the most militant of these factions was NSF-Meraj, led by former firebrand student leader of the University of Karachi, Meraj Muhammad Khan.

While most NSF factions retained affiliation with the left-wing National Awami Party (NAP), the Meraj group moved closer to the then nascent Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) in 1967.

It was also this group that led the widespread youth movement against the Ayub Khan dictatorship in the late 1960s in Karachi and dominated politics in the educational institutions of the city.

Its main nemesis here was the student-wing of the Jamat-i-Islami, the Islami Jamiat Taleba (IJT), with which it regularly clashed on the city’s campuses.

NSF-Meraj was Maoist in orientation and some of its members had advised PPP chairman, Z A. Bhutto, to initiate a ‘Maoist style revolution’ in Pakistan instead of campaigning for social democracy.

Nevertheless, Meraj joined the PPP and became a minister (in 1972), but had a falling out with Prime Minister Bhutto. He was expelled from the party in 1974 and arrested for inciting unrest among factory workers.

NSF-Meraj began losing influence and clout across the 1970s, folding in the late 1980s after a failed attempt by some of its senior patrons to arm its fledgling members at the University of Karachi.

Further reading: Political Dynamics of Sindh – Dr. Tanvir Tahir (Pakistan Studies Centre).

Peoples Guard

During the campaigning of the 1970 general elections, PPP rallies were repeatedly attacked by members of the Islami Jamiat Taleba (IJT) whose mother party had accused the PPP of ‘undermining Islam’ by spreading ‘atheistic ideas’ like socialism.

The PPP accused the IJT attackers of being funded and backed by the country’s top industrialists and the military regime (of General Yahya Khan).

After another such attack took place at a PPP rally in Lahore, left-wing student leaders like Meraj Muhmammad Khan and Raja Anwar advised Z A. Bhutto to form a ‘Peoples Guard’ to tackle the attackers.

Thus was born the Peoples Guard, structured by Meraj and Raja Anwar and overseen by the brilliant PPP organiser and left-wing intellectual, Shaikh Muhammad Rashid.

The outfit consisted of various young militants belonging to NSF factions and pro-PPP musclemen from Lahore and Karachi’s working-class areas.

They were armed with knives, clubs, chains and a few pistols and were involved in running battles with IJT in the streets of Lahore. No firearms were used.

IJT attacks on the rallies soon came to a halt and the Peoples Guard evolved into becoming Peoples Students Federation (PSF) in 1972 after the first PPP government came into power.

Further reading: Pakistan Peoples Party Rise to Power – Philip E. Jones (Oxford University Press).

Peoples Students Federation (Tipu)

With the fall of the first PPP regime at the hands of Ziaul Haq’s military coup in 1977, PPP workers faced immediate arrests, harassment and torture.

The party chairman, Z A. Bhutto, too was arrested and then put on death row (through a highly controversial trial) for supposedly ordering a murder.

Facing intense reactionary action from the new military junta, the police and its politico-religious backers, former NSF leader and youth minister in Bhutto’s cabinet, Raja Anwar, began forming cells of young working-class PPP members and supporters.

The cells were secretively formed to put pressure on the military regime through court arrests and disrupt the regime’s implementation of harsh laws that included public floggings of anti-Zia students, journalists and, of course, PPP workers.

The cells slipped into disarray when in 1978, a number of PPP workers set themselves on fire to protest against the regime.

Some suggest that Anwar also wanted to arm the cells to conduct urban guerrilla warfare against the right-wing dictatorship, but he has rejected this claim.

Anwar escaped arrest by slipping into the then Soviet-controlled Afghanistan (in 1979-80) to join Bhutto’s exiled sons, Murtaza and Shahnawaz.

Meanwhile the party’s student-wing, PSF (in Karachi) that had been a part of various progressive student alliances in the city’s colleges and universities was facing severe harassment from the police and IJT.

As other progressive and anti-IJT groups like Baloch Students Organization (BSO), Pakhtun Students Federation (PkSF) and the nascent All Pakistan Mohajir Students Organization (APMSO) formed the United Students Movement (USM) at the University of Karachi, PSF got together with NSF to form Taleba Ittihad (TI).

IJT had armed itself with sophisticated weapons; soon USM and TI too began arming themselves.

But shortly before the formation of USM and TI, a loose group from among PSF emerged in Karachi led by Salamullah Tipu.

Tipu who belonged to a lower middle-class Urdu-speaking (Mohajir) family in Karachi had begun his career as a student politician in 1973 with the IJT.

However, he was soon expelled from IJT and he then joined the left-wing NSF in 1974 (According to his maternal uncle, Tipu was convinced that ‘Marx made more sense than Mauddudi!’).

By the time he joined PSF in 1975 at Karachi’s National College, he had bagged a raunchy reputation of being a ‘drunken brawler’ and ‘street-fighter’ who (according to colleagues) ‘specialised in terrorizing IJT members.’

Tipu rose rapidly in PSF and was named the president of PSF’s Karachi wing in 1978.

After IJT began arming itself and Zia regime’s persecution of progressive student groups increased, PSF (in Karachi) became the first non-IJT student outfit to begin arming itself.

The outfit’s most militant and armed group was (unofficially) called PSF-Tipu. In 1980 it attacked an IJT gathering at the University of Karachi (in which an IJT leader was killed).

The incident took place a day after IJT’s notorious (and well armed) ‘Thunder Squad’ had attacked an anti-Zia rally at the university being held by progressive student groups.

IJT members had then handed over some progressive student leaders to the police who dutifully tortured them.

PSF-Tipu folded after Tipu, who too wanted to initiate urban guerrilla warfare against the Zia regime, escaped to Afghanistan and joined Murtaza Bhutto’s Al-Zulfikar.

Further reading: The Terrorist Prince – Raja Anwar (Verso Press).


Al-Zulfikar (AZO)

Formed by Z A. Bhutto’s sons, Murtaza and Shanawaz Bhutto in 1979.

AZ was initially funded and supported by Afghanistan’s communist regime as well as by the radical Ba’athist regime of Syria, Kaddafi’s Libya and Yasser Arafat’s PLO.

It operated from Kabul.

Bulk of AZO’s members consisted of renegade PSF members and workers of radical Pukhtun, Sindhi and Baloch student groups, even though many of its early members hailed from Punjab and Karachi.

AZO fashioned itself as a left-wing urban guerrilla outfit and was involved in a string of political assassinations, bank robberies (to raise funds) and an assassination attempt on the Pope who visited Pakistan in 1981.

It also attempted to twice shoot down the plane carrying Ziaul Haq.

It’s most prominent act came in the shape of the 1981 hijacking of a PIA plane. The hijacking was led by Salamullah Tipu and three other PSF members.

Though the hijacking forced Zia to release dozens of PPP, PSF, NSF and members of various Baloch and Pukhtun organisations ******* in Zia’s already cramped jails, it left the still jailed PPP co-chairperson, Benazir Bhutto, disowning and chastising AZO.

By 1982 a power struggle between AZO chief Murtaza Bhutto, Tipu and the Afghan intelligence agency, KHAD, erupted, and by 1983 Murtaza was convinced that Tipu had managed to form his own group within the AZO.

A paranoid Murtaza prevailed over the increasingly wayward Tipu and – according to Raja Anwar – tricked Tipu into murdering an Afghan for which KHAD arrested and executed Tipu (in 1984).

The second version of AZO (beginning in 1986) only had radical Sindhi militants and AZO was reduced to being a violent Sindhi nationalist organisation before fading away in the early 1990s.

Further reading: The Terrorist Prince – Raja Anwar (Verso Press); Pakistan: A Modern History – Ian Talbot (Palgrave McMillan Press).

Black Eagles

Formed in 1979 in various universities and colleges of Lahore by radical leftist students as a militant anti-Zia student outfit.

Co-operated with other progressive student groups during student union elections, but also began arming itself after IJT started using sophisticated weapons.

Managed to oust IJT from various colleges in Lahore (through both the ballot and the bullet), before folding after the Zia regime’s most severe crackdown on left-wing student groups in 1984.

Black Tigers/Nadeem Commandos

Though the All Pakistan Mohajir Students Organization was formed (in 1978) by ex-IJT members, it became a self-proclaimed progressive mohajir group.

It also joined various progressive student alliances in Karachi (USM).

APMSO soon spawned Mohajir Qaumi Movement (MQM) in 1984 which too presented itself as a progressive and secular party.

APMSO gradually became IJT’s leading nemesis in Karachi clashing with IJT’s ‘Thunder Squad’ in its bid to oust IJT from Karachi’s campuses.

It was largely successful in this respect, even though IJT was heavily armed.

To meet this challenge, APMSO/MQM formed secret militant cells and its members began being called Black Tigers.

Though formed to tackle the militant off-shoots of various religious parties in Karachi, the Tigers ended up battling PPP and PSF militants during Benazir Bhutto’s first government (1988-91).

The Tigers evolved into the even more militant ‘Nadeem commandos’ an enigmatic group within MQM which (the government and Army) accused of initiating an urban war (against the state) to form a separate ‘mohajir state.’

As it turned out, though militant cells were present in the MQM, most of them were first constructed to tackle IJT militants.

They were never formed for any separate mohajir state.

Further reading: Migrants & Militants - Oskar Verkaaik (Princeton University Press); Guns, Slums & Yellow Devils - Laurent Gayer (Cambridge University Press).


@Naofumi, above is some of what can be known to a non-Pakistani about the Pakistani Left. Additionally, please read this thread of mine from 2016 which speaks of Leftist activism among Muslims of the world, including Pakistan. Actually I have linked to you this thread a few days ago.

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@AUz, why are you obsessively and moralistically talking about religion and sexuality ?
 
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Right there is the author's mistake. He considers the Labour Party as a Left party, ignoring that its leader Tony Blair championed the military invasion of an actual sovereign socialist country - Iraq, under an excuse umbrella that included a capitalist government - USA.
1) I don't consider Saddam as strictly left, he was a mass-murderer of non-Arab minorities, played an Islamist in the Iran-Iraq war and he was militaristic and pan-Arabist which can be dubbed as Arab supremacism. He tried to be relatively secular but was not from even Turkish standards (Islamic populism, grew a beard after the invasion etc) and tried an socialist stand on economy but was nothing but a populist with little growth.
2) The phenomenon discussed here is that NOW the global left is receding.
I don't think the Indian Left was on the minds of those who voted for BJP in 2014 and 2019.
Whaaaaat? The "nationalistic" side of Modi was emphasised - like for example, many "leftist" questioned the Balakot strikes and that gave a very negative perception of left in the psyche. I was reading some interviews of local people and they cited national security as a big concern. That was seen as attack on the majority emotions. There are more examples for this.
A thought here. The modern Indian industries of the IT / ITES sectors have become the modern feudalist arrangements. The workers are treated as disposable elements who are discouraged with threats any idea of starting an employee union which is necessary just to take care of employee issues. I myself tried to set up an employee union in an ITES company I worked in a few years ago. Fool that I was I did not take it to conclusion and resigned from the job. Otherwise it would have been the first employee union in India in the IT / ITES sector.

A strange thing in India - IBM-USA has an employee union but IBM-India does not. At least it did not some years ago. I don't know about now.
That's an anecdote, overall India is more socialist than US. MNREGA and the overall subsidies system is not present in pure capitalist countries.
 
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You may say that I a non-Pakistani would not know the dynamics in Pakistani politics but I think you don't know much about the Pakistani Left. From Faiz Ahmed Faiz's attempted coup in 1951 to Malala to the late Mashal Khan to the Laal music band to now possibly Arooj Aurangzeb.

Here's a message from Malala from 2013 :



From an older PDF post from 2011 :


@Naofumi, above is some of what can be known to a non-Pakistani about the Pakistani Left. Additionally, please read this thread of mine from 2016 which speaks of Leftist activism among Muslims of the world, including Pakistan. Actually I have linked to you this thread a few days ago.

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@AUz, why are you obsessively and moralistically talking about religion and sexuality ?


Arooj Aurangzeb is a fooking joke. Some crazy third rate Che Guevara wannabe. She's a treacherous c*nt who hates the Pakistani establishment with a deep fire. Mashal Khan (may god bless him) and I feel very sad for what happened to him but in all probability he would have been a Pashtun nationalist....somewhere along the lines of Gulalai Ismail. You don't know how conservative Pashtun society is, these leftist types are derided in Pashtun society which is why ANP never won from there. Malala, though has good intentions and is a good kid, but has been coopted by the West as a talking point against Pakistan. She has not done much to change anything for women's education in Pakistan, all her activism is in front of white saviour complex ridden liberals. The only person you're right about though is Faiz sahab.

@jamahir here's another crazy leftist you should know about from Pakistan- Taimoor Rahman. And another-Jibran Nasir. Leftists are ideologues and in a conservative society like Pakistan, you need to be able to connect with the masses. You can't be sprouting off Marx and Trotsky and expect the masses to understand you.
 
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Instead of both right & left leaning folk badmouthing each other - there should be genuine conversations and debate so that both sides can formulate a more truer picture of each other in the specific context of Pakistan.

This will help clear the fog and misunderstandings b/w segments of our society. Otherwise the left will keep on thinking that those who oppose them are extremist mullahs or bootpolishers while the right would keep on clinging with it's image of the left as immoral party folk or foreign agents.
 
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The Snapshot

* The Left’s collapse across the world has been fueled by 3 factors:

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* Disconnect to local issues
* Demonization of majorities
* Lackluster economic dividends for worker classes

I don't think left is disconnected from local issues, in fact this is their bread and butter... they revel in inflating issues out of proportion but that feeds into alienating majorities especially when economy is not doing well... hence that famous Clinton idiom...
Modi was running on a populist platform in 2014, one that showed him as a can do guy... I wonder if he had won without such sloganeering but that flips diametrically in his reelection where he didn't remain true to his hype of an economic miracle man... but did get reelected instead on machismo and hindutva platform.
Left can sometimes be seen as anti-majority when it clashes with cultural values like Christian values and overall "shaming them for being white imperialists" blah blah, I hope you get what I intend to convey.
On India, your comments are on Modi not on the left (say Arundhati Roy), maybe you don't know much about Indian left.

@jamahir here's another crazy leftist you should know about from Pakistan- Taimoor Rahman. And another-Jibran Nasir. Leftists are ideologues and in a conservative society like Pakistan, you need to be able to connect with the masses. You can't be sprouting off Marx and Trotsky and expect the masses to understand you.
How many boxes will you tick for Pakistani left? I guess at least two.
  • Disconnect to local issues
  • Demonization of majorities
  • Lackluster economic dividends for worker classes

Islam is a big factor in the current right-wing wave across the globe.

Liberalism decimated all major cultures except Islam. Sexual revolution, secularism, liberalism swept away every culture more or less---From Latin America, to Europe, to India. Everyone....except Islam. Muslims kept their culture, religion, traditional values, and Muslims have been globally assertive in preserving their identity and religion everywhere. Islam in essence defeated secular liberalism across the globe wherever these two ideologies came face to face. Even in Western world, Muslim assimilation became a topic of national discussion.

This, combined with Islam's global demographic expansion due to healthier birth rates among Muslims allowed right-wing to coalesce around hatred of Islam and exploit this apparent 'double-standard' of liberalism where every other culture and their value was subdued except Islam's (Hijab, halal, religious practices of Muslims etc became national conversations in England, France, US, India). Couple that with conflicts involving Muslims across the world (9/11, Philipines, Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan etc). This provided even more fuel to the fire of right-wing's angst (& at some level, envy) against Muslims/Islam

So Islam is also a huge factor in modern right-wing surge---and you see it everywhere (Trump, Modi, Orban all from different countries and backgrounds....yet all exploited anti-Muslim sentiment in their political campaigns)

Although, its hilarious. No matter the hatred of Muslims, the cultures of these lands have been thoroughly secularized, birth rates low, religiosity non-existent, and sexual revolution swept away their sexual moralities and traditional family values etc. So while they can use anti-Muslim sentiment for some political mileage, they can't reverse the damaging aspects of liberalism that are now a permanent part of these cultures to a large extent with varying degrees.

Meanwhile, Muslims continue to---and will for the foreseeable future---keep their Islamic traditionalism, relatively higher religiousness, healthier birth rates, family values, Hijabs, halal, and so on (all the while getting industrialized/modernized at a faster pace than most non-East Asian regions of the world) :)

For example, The Arab World is more prosperous than Latin America---and yet at the same time, it is FAR more religious than Latin America in every aspect and has significantly healthier birth rates too.

This combination of higher prosperty+higher religiousity+higher birth rates is almost impossible to find outside of the Islamic world


View attachment 631991

View attachment 631992

Even high-income, industrialized parts of Islamic world are relatively far more religious, Islamically traditional, and non-liberalized compared to their non-Muslim counter-parts

Alhamdulillah for all that.
I like honesty in your views. So, what do you think will be the end? Will Islam eventually dominate world or the world will be divided into two : Islam and non-Islam?
Also, I would like you to read this article too (Caution : It have some Islamophobic content too)
https://www.brownpundits.com/2016/12/05/islam-is-rock-on-which-liberal-order/

Western liberalism failed because it is hypocritical and self-aggrandizing when it comes to Islam and Muslims. For every freedom and democracy, there is occupation and dictatorships for Muslims.

It also doesn't take into account the history of the Western rise to power, which was based on theft and abuse of power. In this way, fascist rightwing is a return to the era of white darwinism, of superiority by force, and subjugation of others.

Basically all ideologies have failed in the West, and the Muslim scapegoat looks more and more enticing.

Their frustration increases when they see three Muslim countries continue rising, despite constantly being pushed down by them. I mean here of course Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan.

Two questions : In a hypothetical case where there are no Muslims, would western order worked as fine?

Do you think Muslim have an assimilation problem?
 
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Left can sometimes be seen as anti-majority when it clashes with cultural values like Christian values and overall "shaming them for being white imperialists" blah blah, I hope you get what I intend to convey.
On India, your comments are on Modi not on the left (say Arundhati Roy), maybe you don't know much about Indian left.


How many boxes will you tick for Pakistani left? I guess at least two.



I like honesty in your views. So, what do you think will be the end? Will Islam eventually dominate world or the world will be divided into two : Islam and non-Islam?
Also, I would like you to read this article too (Caution : It have some Islamophobic content too)
https://www.brownpundits.com/2016/12/05/islam-is-rock-on-which-liberal-order/
Just clarifying one last fallacy, a receding left... I can say with confidence that it is certainly not the case in U.S. despite Republican victory/ies... proof is in the pudding... twice already in recent past Republicans have loat popular vote but won elections on the basis of electoral college... latest being the current one. While both Obama victories had a significant margin in popular vote against his opponents, a little less in his second term... that being said American left appeases right wing politics and narrative, such as both Bush and Trump were able to do tax cuts for the rich with great fanfare while Democrats were not able to provide such relief to middle and lower middle class after 2008 financial crisis... which was again a bailout of ultra rich... middle America lost their pensions and foreclosed on their homes... which also manifested in voting patterns and outrage against Democrats... all the while Democrats muffled their populist response ... This dynamic persists because both parties are essentially funded by wall street.
 
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Just clarifying one last fallacy, a receding left... I can say with confidence that it is certainly not the case in U.S. despite Republican victory/ies... proof is in the pudding... twice already in recent past Republicans have loat popular vote but won elections on the basis of electoral college... latest being the current one. While both Obama victories had a significant margin in popular vote against his opponents, a little less in his second term... that being said American left appeases right wing politics and narrative, such as both Bush and Trump were able to do tax cuts for the rich with great fanfare while Democrats were not able to provide such relief to middle and lower middle class after 2008 financial crisis... which was again a bailout of ultra rich... middle America lost their pensions and foreclosed on their homes... which also manifested in voting patterns and outrage against Democrats... all the while Democrats muffled their populist response ... This dynamic persists because both parties are essentially funded by wall street.
Do you consider Obama and Biden as left or centre?
 
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Malala, though has good intentions and is a good kid, but has been coopted by the West as a talking point against Pakistan. She has not done much to change anything for women's education in Pakistan, all her activism is in front of white saviour complex ridden liberals.

Firstly, it is encouraging to me that you have a good image of Malala, because unfortunately she faces some hostility in Pakistan with some saying that her shooting ( in the head ) was a staged drama.

Secondly, you are right to the extent that the Western Establishment controls her image in the West. How many Westerners will know of that statement of hers that I posted earlier that has her respecting socialism ?

Arooj Aurangzeb is a fooking joke. Some crazy third rate Che Guevara wannabe. She's a treacherous c*nt who hates the Pakistani establishment with a deep fire.

What's wrong if her hero is Che Guevara ? :)

And what's wrong if she wants to bring changes to Pakistan, including to the Establishment ?

Maybe you have watched this interview of hers. I watched it some months ago and I didn't find any hateful attitude in her.

Mashal Khan (may god bless him) and I feel very sad for what happened to him

Again, it is nice that you feel this way.

but in all probability he would have been a Pashtun nationalist....somewhere along the lines of Gulalai Ismail.

From my limited understanding of him he wasn't a nationalist but I will certainly read any article you can link to me that says he would have been a nationalist.

And I must say Gulalai has a beautiful smile to go with a beautiful name ( "like a flower" ? ) :

23-Gulalai-Ismail.jpg


You don't know how conservative Pashtun society is, these leftist types are derided in Pashtun society which is why ANP never won from there.

Is the Pakistani Pashtun community more conservative than that in Afghanistan ? I say this because the Afghani Pashtuns managed to set up a socialist system in their country for slightly more than a decade.

@jamahir here's another crazy leftist you should know about from Pakistan- Taimoor Rahman. And another-Jibran Nasir. Leftists are ideologues and in a conservative society like Pakistan, you need to be able to connect with the masses. You can't be sprouting off Marx and Trotsky and expect the masses to understand you.

Taimur Rahman I know from his association with the Laal band of which I have listened to one song which seems to simplify higher socialist ideas and ideals for the common people.

Jibran Nasir - the Wikipedia page about him doesn't portray him a leftist as such. Can you link articles about him ?

Whaaaaat? The "nationalistic" side of Modi was emphasised - like for example, many "leftist" questioned the Balakot strikes and that gave a very negative perception of left in the psyche. I was reading some interviews of local people and they cited national security as a big concern. That was seen as attack on the majority emotions. There are more examples for this.

I believe what you are saying is partially true. What is also true is of the BJP presenting itself as the champion of Hinduism and the savior of Hindus in a country "overrun" by mainly Muslims but also Christians and yes you are right, in the 2019 elections, by those "pesky and treasonous" intellectuals who did things like Award Wapsi.

played an Islamist in the Iran-Iraq war

I don't think so. I think he played a secular person who was holding off a maddened theocratic Shia Iran from overrunning a multi-cultural Iraq.

and he was militaristic

Yes, that he was. His Kuwait invasion was unnecessary.

Islamic populism, grew a beard after the invasion etc

If you search for that old vid of his hideout being betrayed and him captured, he has, IIRC, a long beard as a result of months of worry and hiding. And his beard in jail is also because of the same reason. Look at our own Omar Abdullah with his beard that grew during his house arrest.

and tried an socialist stand on economy but was nothing but a populist with little growth.

I don't know how you will categorize this but Iraq had a PDS system like our own Indian "ration shop" system. The Iraqi system function even during the sanctions after the 1990-91 war.

2) The phenomenon discussed here is that NOW the global left is receding.

Well, we are various discussing elements of the global Left. In Pakistan it is not receding but gaining slow momentum. In India too the same with the new popular youth leaders like Kanhaiya and Shehla.
 
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@jamahir Gulalai hates Pakistan with a passion. Her dad was a rabid Pashtun nationalist who wanted a greater Pashtunistan separate from Pakistan. She was caught taking money from RAW and absconded from Pakistan. And what's telling is that Pakistani Pashtuns are very die hard loyals of Pakistan. It's only the tribals from FATA who are a bit anti Pakistan because people there value tribe loyalty mote than national loyalty. Arooj Aurangzeb is another such character who espouses any ethnonationalist movement against Pakistan because she hates Pakistan's establishment. Some kind of fetish with giving it to the Pakistani bourgeoisie and establishing the proletariat. Let me tell you a bit about BLA and PTM. It's mostly espoused by tribal warlords like Bugtis and Marris, who have their own benefits in opposing Pakistan because Pakistani interference hurts their narcotics and smuggling trade. They rile up their tribesmen against Pakistan. But by and large the majority and I meam majority of KPK and Balochistan are very pro Pakistan. Afghanistan may have been a socialist utopia but despite that Pakistani Pashtuns have a much better standard of living than Afghan Pashtuns and KPK is much more developed than Afghanistan.
 
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I like honesty in your views. So, what do you think will be the end? Will Islam eventually dominate world or the world will be divided into two : Islam and non-Islam?
Also, I would like you to read this article too (Caution : It have some Islamophobic content too)
https://www.brownpundits.com/2016/12/05/islam-is-rock-on-which-liberal-order/

Lol, only children think in the terms of "domination of the world" these days. Children or Hindutva incels suffering from deep inferiority complexes

The era of domination is long over. No one entity or civilization will 'dominate' much of the globe like Islam did for nearly a 1000 years (7th to 18th century, generally speaking) or like how Europe did in the colonial age. That era of wars, conquests, mass conversions, taking over vast territories for long times etc etc is long gone. Modern weapons and especially modern economics make it impossible for such domination.

There is no end as history doesn't have an endpoint. What I believe is that Islam will also go through a process of 'relaxation' or somewhat 'secularization'...but slowly. By the time this process completes in Islam, Islam would most likely be the largest ever religion of humanity or would match Christianity at the bare minimum in nominal size (Islam is already the largest *practiced* faith of the world according to PEW, that'll remain the case in future as well). Nominally, slightly more than 1/3 of entire humanity will be Muslim in coming decades iA

Islam's defeat of liberal secularism allows it to maintain its demographic momentum longer than it would have otherwise. But no momentum can be forever (otherwise we'd have infinity which is impossible in our physical human realm). Most of Islamic world will reach replacement fertility by 2030s (this was supposed to happen in early 2000's btw lol...but as I said...Islamic traditionalism gives Islam a demographic momentum which would have not been there had Islam gotten secularized/liberalized like other religions)

The future world will most likely be multipolar, geopolitically speaking. Era of undisputed US dominance in military and economic sphere is coming to an end. Powers like India and Turkey etc are trying to grasp this opportunity and become one of the "poles" in this emerging order....and they might. Even if they aren't a pole, they'll be a semi-pole of sorts. More powerful than a regional power but may be not a great power like US/China in the medium term

Lastly, I know of that link. Read it before. The guys who run brownpundits are okayish...not very smart or insightful. Just educated versions of indian right wing. They used to predict Muslims will become majority in Europe and 40% in India by 2050 :lol: Can't take such folks too seriously you know. This type of ignorance is very telling about internal biases of a person
 
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I don't think so. I think he played a secular person who was holding off a maddened theocratic Shia Iran from overrunning a multi-cultural Iraq.
Nope. He was a Islamic populist, he broadcasted his Umrah, Hajj, mosques visits etc on live TV. And how can mass-murderer of Kurds can be multicultural?
I believe what you are saying is partially true. What is also true is of the BJP presenting itself as the champion of Hinduism and the savior of Hindus in a country "overrun" by mainly Muslims but also Christians and yes you are right, in the 2019 elections, by those "pesky and treasonous" intellectuals who did things like Award Wapsi.
Muslims are targeted because of being anti-national and a security threat itself, so this is an addendum to my point. Christians are a different case and are targeted because of missionary activities.
I don't know how you will categorize this but Iraq had a PDS system like our own Indian "ration shop" system. The Iraqi system function even during the sanctions after the 1990-91 war.
That's called populism.
Well, we are various discussing elements of the global Left. In Pakistan it is not receding but gaining slow momentum. In India too the same with the new popular youth leaders like Kanhaiya and Shehla.
All of them are perfect examples of this :
  • Disconnect to local issues
  • Demonization of majorities
  • Lackluster economic dividends for worker classes
They tick all these boxes.

Lol, only children think in the terms of "domination of the world" these days. Children or Hindutva incels suffering from deep inferiority complexes

The era of domination is long over. No one entity or civilization will 'dominate' much of the globe like Islam did for nearly a 1000 years (7th to 18th century, generally speaking) or like how Europe did in the colonial age. That era of wars, conquests, mass conversions, taking over vast territories for long times etc etc is long gone. Modern weapons and especially modern economics make it impossible for such domination.

There is no end as history doesn't have an endpoint. What I believe is that Islam will also go through a process of 'relaxation' or somewhat 'secularization'...but slowly. By the time this process completes in Islam, Islam would most likely be the largest ever religion of humanity or would match Christianity at the bare minimum in nominal size (Islam is already the largest *practiced* faith of the world according to PEW, that'll remain the case in future as well). Nominally, slightly more than 1/3 of entire humanity will be Muslim in coming decades iA

Islam's defeat of liberal secularism allows it to maintain its demographic momentum longer than it would have otherwise. But no momentum can be forever (otherwise we'd have infinity which is impossible in our physical human realm). Most of Islamic world will reach replacement fertility by 2030s (this was supposed to happen in early 2000's btw lol...but as I said...Islamic traditionalism gives Islam a demographic momentum which would have not been there had Islam gotten secularized/liberalized like other religions)

The future world will most likely be multipolar, geopolitically speaking. Era of undisputed US dominance in military and economic sphere is coming to an end. Powers like India and Turkey etc are trying to grasp this opportunity and become one of the "poles" in this emerging order....and they might. Even if they aren't a pole, they'll be a semi-pole of sorts. More powerful than a regional power but may be not a great power like US/China in the medium term

Lastly, I know of that link. Read it before. The guys who run brownpundits are okayish...not very smart or insightful. Just educated versions of indian right wing. They used to predict Muslims will become majority in Europe and 40% in India by 2050 :lol: Can't take such folks too seriously you know. This type of ignorance is very telling about internal biases of a person
Our views are similar in this regard. You are smarter than I imagined you were :enjoy:.
 
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