The Pakistan Navy | Transformation from Fledgling Force to a Fighting Machine

[Dash]

@AUSTERLITZ

Here is what Sukhoi Chief had to say about the JF-17. http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/70114-jf-17-extremely-close-mig-29-mikhail-pogosyan.html.

Agree with this point, but dont you think that small difference is enough to make it a big difference in a war scenario?

 

[Nike]

hmmm....i would go for 4 Darling-class destroyers, Horizon-class frigates or Sachsen-class frigate ! to be inducted in 5-6 years

I think you need at least 6 billion US dollar to acquire such Beast in such numbers

 

[Kompromat]

Agree with this point, but dont you think that small difference is enough to make it a big difference in a war scenario?

Differences are in radar which a very advanced AWACS will supplement. A matter of fact, they can detect Migs 400kms away,track,lock and transfer data to the JF-17s to fire SD-10s and all other armaments, without having the air craft to lock individually on the migs which will mean getting really close to the migs. An AWACs link increases the chances of a BVR kill by allowing the maximum range of a BVR round to be utilized due to long range scanning,tracking [multiple] and targeting capability, all done from a safe stand off range.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

@AUSTERLITZ

Your "comparison" is incorrect between Mig-29 and JF-17. Both jets have identical capabilities and if you have simply ignored the fact that the JF-17s will be supplemented by ZDK-03 AWACS, it depicts your biased point of view.

Here is what Sukhoi Chief had to say about the JF-17. http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/70114-jf-17-extremely-close-mig-29-mikhail-pogosyan.html

Moreover, JF-17 can be armed with a wide array of state of the art stand off weapons like, CM-400AKG,C-802A,SD-10A,Raad ALCM and Exocest. You have simply ignored my repeated statements that PN has a defensive sea denial doctrine and no offensive ventures will be carried out. You on the other hand are consistently comparing two navies on par to par basis which either means that you haven't read the article totally or you simply aren't aware of whats actually being discussed here.


Best Regards.

Extremely close perhaps aerodynamically.Lets take a close look at the details since u claim i'm not aware of the 'details' of whats being discussed here.And you aren't the only ones who will use awacs.
See how they match up.

MANUEVREBILITY and PERFORMANCE-

The MOST important parameter of this attribute is THRUST TO WEIGHT RATIO-

Mig-29k-1.09
Jf-17-.82
Clearly latter is completely outmatched.TW ratio under 1 is not ideal.

2nd most important parameter-

WING LOADING-

Assuming both sides carrying Air to air weaponry[as is norm for CAP fighter protecting carriers and escorting jf-17s of the strike package which would amount to around 3.5 tonnes.By empty weight plus air to air weaponry divided by wing area]

Jf-17 - 371 kg/m^2
MIG-29K -390 kg/m^2

Here due to its lighter weight and single engine jf-17 gets advantage.

Other important parameters-

RATE OF CLIMB-

Jf-17 -175m/s
Mig-29k - 330m/s

Large difference in favour of mig-29k here.

G-limit-
Jf-17-8-8.5 G
Mig-29K- 9.5G

ANGLE OF ATTACK-
Mig-29 has traditionally had awesome angle of attack-
Max 45 degrees.
F-16 has around 30 degrees.
I am guessing mig-29 has large advantage over jf-17 here.Feel free to prove me wrong.

In other parameters of performance-

Service ceiling
Mig-29k-57,400 ft
jf-17-55,500 ft
More or less equal.

Speed-
Jf-17-Max MACH 1.6
Mig-29K -Max Mach 2.2
Solid advantage again for mig-29k.

Use of composites-jf-17- none.
Mig-29K-15%
As seen above Mig-29k almost totally outperforms jf-17 in manuevreability and performance.

NEXT-
AVIONICS-

Both fighters have EW suite and radar warning recievers,countermeasures,Digital FBW,HUD [heads up display] and MFD[multi functional display],HMS.

Key parameters-

RADAR-
JF-17-
KJ-7-5m^2 target at 105 kms.Can track 10 targets in BVR mode and engage 2.Can pick up naval targets only at 135 kms.

Mig-29K-
ZHUK-ME-5m^2 target at 120 kms.Can track 10 and engage 4 simultaneously.Can pick up naval targets at 300kms.
Again solid advantage for mig-29k.

IRST tracker-
Mig-29k-yes
jf-17-no
Another clear advantage of mig-29k.

3.ARMAMENT.

9 HARDPOINTS for mig-29k.
7 hardpoints for jf-17.

jf-17.Can carry 3000kg payload.
Mig-29kCan carry 5500 kg payload.

IMPORTANTLY,
Mig-29k can use R-73 ARCHER/HMS combo with high off boresight capability.
Something the AIM-9L or chinese WVR aams are unable to match.
This would give DECISIVE advantage in close combat to mig-29k.THis was found on luftwaffe mig-29s and thats why all western nations built high off boresight WVRs- example-pythn 4/5 for israel,Aim-9X for usa,IRIS-T germany.

Another fact-
Jf-17 is equipped with a single type of BVR-
PL-12/SD-10.An ACTIVE RADAR HOMING weapon.Range 70km-100kms.

Mig-29k-
Can use BVR missiles with 3 different types of guidance,much more difficult for countermeasures to defeat.

SEMI ACTIVE RADAR HOMING-
R-27R alamo-60-80 KM
R-27ER-Max range 130 km.

PASSIVE INFRA RED HOMING-
R-27T-70 kms
R-27ET-130 kms

ACTIVE RADAR HOMING-
R-77/RVV-AE -80 kms.

Thus in all 3 parameters of performance and manuevreability,armament and avionics MIg-29k holds solid advantage.
Therefore the chances of a jf-17 strike package actually threatening carrier after getting through mig-29k umbrella are nearly non existent.

 

[Dash]

Differences are in radar which a very advanced AWACS will supplement. A matter of fact, they can detect Migs 400kms away,track,lock and transfer data to the JF-17s to fire SD-10s and all other armaments, without having the air craft to lock individually on the migs which will mean getting really close to the migs. An AWACs link increases the chances of a BVR kill by allowing the maximum range of a BVR round to be utilized due to long range scanning,tracking [multiple] and targeting capability, all done from a safe stand off range.

If you ever have to use JF 17 against Mig 29 that means it is close to your shore and your AWACS will have to be out of any firing range from Novators or any other missiles. Now imagine the same would happen to Migs with our AWACS feeding data + Ka AWE, Possible?

 

[Kompromat]

If you ever have to use JF 17 against Mig 29 that means it is close to your shore and your AWACS will have to be out of any firing range from Novators or any other missiles. Now imagine the same would happen to Migs with our AWACS feeding data, Possible?

It will depend on who gets the first,shot. You must not forget that our strategy is of sea denial and the closer the migs get to our coast the more vulnerable they become not only to the fighter jets but also to anti air warfare assets on surface. If Pakistan gets Type-54A and a fleet of 6 FFG-8 with Genesis upgrades it will form a potent arc of sea based air defense allowing AWACS and fighters to operate upon their terms. Depending on what type of engagement takes place and how much burden is put on PAF. The PAF might be drawn in as their assets are not located too far away from the expected warzone.

 

[Dash]

It will depend on who gets the first,shot. You must not forget that our strategy is of sea denial and the closer the migs get to our coast the more vulnerable they become not only to the fighter jets but also to anti air warfare assets on surface. If Pakistan gets Type-54A and a fleet of 6 FFG-8 with Genesis upgrades it will form a potent arc of sea based air defense allowing AWACS and fighters to operate upon their terms. Depending on what type of engagement takes place and how much burden is put on PAF. The PAF might be drawn in as their assets are not located too far away from the expected warzone.

I will buy that point.
In all possible scenario India and Pakistan will use their Airforce. The only problem lies with you is if there is an attack from the west with IAF then it becomes very valunerable. But we are talking about war now, so I wont go deep. It scares me.

 

[alimobin memon]

Maybe if there is any other 42 than i dont know if there is only one moder 42 destroyer that ofcourse it could be this.

 

[RAMPAGE]

I think you need at least 6 billion US dollar to acquire such Beast in such numbers

yup ! 4 billion + ................

 

[alimobin memon]

Listen dont go be extreme about jf17 and over confident about mig 29k both are capable jets. The true capability of jet is seen in only combat which ofcourse favors mig 29k. Even if Mig29k has according to u superior capabilities it wont be more than 10% more effective. the jf17 is almost par with it or equal.

 

[alimobin memon]

Dude These are old specs. klj 7 that is mentioned in wiki and in the sight was the original version out of klj10 which has been updated having 124 km against 5m^2 target. the climb rate u mentioned is wrong in dubai air show it was show even more. about 260 m/s. Having a greater climb rate does not mean now our jf 17 will die whatever is done. ofcourse jf17 has a single rd 93 and mach 1.8 speed what do you expect 300 m/s ?.

 

[alimobin memon]

Calling yourselves think tanks. Don't even know that "War is based on deception". What we publicly declare is not what we really have. Confusing an enemy is a very old and excellent strategy to counter a force. If we have no money and we are losing deals we opt for and publicly announcing is such a stupid claim by our own govt or forces. it's like "Attack us we got nothing" nobody shows its weak points and if an article releases we just jump out that "we don't have $$$$$$$ simple". Its not that simple and our armed forces aint that innocent that asks for the budget. It sucks out more money to complete its vital goals. So is with India they do the same. Nobody shows the real size of the forces. I am telling u in next five years we will see milgem atleast 1 and other on production plus 8 new chinese frigates missile boats and some submarines. Even if its is not publicly acknowledged. if that is true that we dont have money than u must also realise than that means our reserve ammunition is also wasted in war on terror than indian army would have definitely attacked us taking advantage. Ofcourse india is capable enough that no nato country would object. ofcourse all the new investments are done in india why would waste stop a excellent trading.

So guys India is indeed powerful but we do are some force to reckon with.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

yup ! 4 billion + ................

please send a check to PN

 

[jamesseo89]

I am sure that PN is now not going for another SECOND HAND EQUIPMENTS other than P-3Cs....

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Dude These are old specs. klj 7 that is mentioned in wiki and in the sight was the original version out of klj10 which has been updated having 124 km against 5m^2 target. the climb rate u mentioned is wrong in dubai air show it was show even more. about 260 m/s. Having a greater climb rate does not mean now our jf 17 will die whatever is done. ofcourse jf17 has a single rd 93 and mach 1.8 speed what do you expect 300 m/s ?.

Higher speed of a plane has many advantages,and one more in that it adds to the kinetic energy of the AAM making it more effective.More KE larger NO ESCAPE ZONE i think.
Also a source on the new range of the jf-17 radar,because jane's describes radar range at even less at around 85 kms not 105.