The PAF is set to receive a batch of Egyptian Air Force Mirage-Vs

[GriffinsRule]

There is no "approval" required from the French for 50yr old Mirages. Mostly likely EAF still need to fly them as they have not yet taken delivery of all the Rafales and Migs and Sukhois they ordered I believe. Besides, these jets with long usage already are only worth as spare sources for PAF.
Clauses you mention are all recent and mostly something americans started doing. There jets are from the 60-70s. Even if there is a clause like that, it will be useless. What will french do, stop support if Mirage 3/5s for Egypt when they are getting rid of them anyways. Sounds like an excuse

 

[Gomig-21]

There is no "approval" required from the French for 50yr old Mirages. Mostly likely EAF still need to fly them as they have not yet taken delivery of all the Rafales and Migs and Sukhois they ordered I believe. Besides, these jets with long usage already are only worth as spare sources for PAF.
Clauses you mention are all recent and mostly something americans started doing. There jets are from the 60-70s. Even if there is a clause like that, it will be useless. What will french do, stop support if Mirage 3/5s for Egypt when they are getting rid of them anyways. Sounds like an excuse

We'll have to agree to disagree. This has been going on since post WWII. Remember the Brits were the first to see Russia as a potential enemy which triggered the cold war. Then after that is was who will be part of what alliance and Egypt chose Russia for the most part and I was young at the time but was reading the newspapers and I read a lot of that stuff. I'm too pooped (tiered) to find old information like that but I vividly remember the US making conditions and clauses on the first batch of F-16s we got and you should have seen what Sadat went through with the French to sign a purchase contract for the 1st ever batch of 20 Mirage 2000's. Just in your opinion, what do you suppose the French wrote for clauses on that particular contract in 1982?

This is not something new, this is something that was created post WWII and the invent of powerful jet engine aircraft and ships and tanks & ships etc. It was not only the transfer of technology that was disallowed, but the eventual sale for the life of the aircraft.

Here's an easy question that would answer that point - at the time, would France have agreed that Egypt, at any point of the Mirage existence within its fleet be sold to say....Syria? Of course not. This kind of thing was happening a long time ago and maybe that is not the issue and in fact France agreed because Pakistan has a huge fleet of Mirages and if I'm not mistaken, they had the Rose upgrade done recently but it is a formality.

You ask what the French will do? They will easily do one of several things. Hold off any of the ongoing deals being made for the 11-12 deep sea Scorpene submarines for Egypt or cancel any further sale of Rafales and file a complaint in the international court and essentially ruin the Egy/Franco relationship which honestly, I wouldn't mind since the German mega deal is so much more enticing for me.

Maybe this weekend when I get a moment where I feel like looking this up, I'll post it. It's tough, though, finding info on contracts signed in the early 80's I believe when the first Mirage's were bought. How these would compliment...

...these would be great. But once you own them which I truly hope happens, the upgraded once can be out into active service in short time. You wanna canibalise them for spare parts, they'll be all yours eventually and you could do whatever you want with them,

 

[GriffinsRule]

Again, clauses for first jets with FBW in the 80s with new technology of the time is not the same as the era these jets belong to.

PS Do you have PAF had issues getting Mirages from Libya, Lebanon, Spain, and Australia etc before? If there is a holdup it with the EAF not France. After all, we are buying helos from there right now.

 

[Gomig-21]

Again, clauses for first jets with FBW in the 80s with new technology of the time is not the same as the era these jets belong to.

PS Do you have PAF had issues getting Mirages from Libya, Lebanon, Spain, and Australia etc before? If there is a holdup it with the EAF not France. After all, we are buying helos from there right now.

Of course the hold up is from Egypt, it's always pour fault because if Pakistan wants to canibalize some of these aircraft then they probably want to buy them for $10 a piece and please tell me who would ever agree to that? Not saying that is what is goin on, but since you claimed the process is most likely halted by Egypt without really offering a decent reason, I gave you a possibility because that is all I can at this moment.

These contracts have nothing to do with the advent of FBW systems not sure where and why you brought that up. I already mentioned that these were items decided immediately post WWII which was roughly 3 decades prior to the advent of the FBW system. And remind me again why we're talking about the FBW system? Don't forget that these were very sensitive times since they were only a short while after a rather strange peace process with a war that killed a lot of people whom France had already supplied the V under the pretense that they were called Neshers just to avoid the self imposed embargo. So after the war when the EAF realized how awesome those aircraft are, you can bet yours and my house that they installed that clause and then some because almost every Arab/Muslim country reviled us for making peace with Israel. So the French were super protective of selling mirages to Egypt. You believe what you want. Perfectly fine by me.

Oh one more thing that created a lot of these contracts and regulations was when Stalin requested a RolceRoyce engine from Britain to help Russia produce better jet engines, they practically gave it to them signed on a napkin and they've regretted it ever since then and now their sales contracts are probably 300 pages long with all sorts of clauses. Also, when Libya offered some of its Mirages to Egypt to help in the war against Israel, it was in violation of the French treaty it signed and it took a lot of diplomatic work to resolve that. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Cookie Monster]

PAF new acquisitionView attachment 738636

Look at that nose cone...it's like 1/3rd the size of the whole thing...I wonder how many transceivers that AESA has

 

[denel]

Why not? Aside from any contractual clauses that might be part of the original purchase that prohibits Egypt to sell these aircraft to any country without the full approval of the French government and military, there are also other issues that complicate this deal from going through, one being the India/France Rafale deal that was such a struggle and a delicate balance that France would never want to upset, but that is secondary to not only the contractual clauses, but the primary reason would be that Egypt is currently France's #1 customer for military purchases, and I'm not just talking about the things we already bought like the 24 Rafales, 2 mistrals, the FREMM, the 4 Gowind Corvettes and more, but current major negotiations for a large amount of Scorpene deep sea submarine that our Jewish cousins are vehemently opposing.

Think about it for even a second: You are the US or the UK and you sell 80 of your best aircraft (at the time, the Mirage V was the best thing going with Dassault), the contract would undoubtedly include a clause that these jets can never be sold to a 3rd party without the express, written consent of the original seller which happens to be Dassault and France in this case.

There are even clauses in some contracts that will make your head spin. For example, just a couple of months ago I read about the Saudi purchase of the Boeing KC-707/KE-3A refueling tankers from the US to Saudi Arabia and the clause is that they can only fly and perform air to air refueling activities within the Arabian Peninsula only! And when they have to travel far enough for an exercise with another country where they would need to refuel in the air, they need to sign contracts prior to use NATO or US tankers that would be in the area. So not only are there clauses for never selling to 3rd parties without full consent and permission, but there are tons of usages clauses too. You know about that being in the SA military yourself.

Sorry, but no - it may be used an excuse in this case but it is not reality with such an old unit. If such signoff were required, why did Pak managed to get a huge collection of M3/5. Then why did Atlas completely gut the entire fleet into Cheetahs or further sell off the Cheetahs to various South American countries.

I do believe these were held either by pressure from master bone sawer or probably to get more money.

There is no "approval" required from the French for 50yr old Mirages. Mostly likely EAF still need to fly them as they have not yet taken delivery of all the Rafales and Migs and Sukhois they ordered I believe. Besides, these jets with long usage already are only worth as spare sources for PAF.
Clauses you mention are all recent and mostly something americans started doing. There jets are from the 60-70s. Even if there is a clause like that, it will be useless. What will french do, stop support if Mirage 3/5s for Egypt when they are getting rid of them anyways. Sounds like an excuse

It is.

 

[Scorpiooo]

i thought egyptian c130 were in pakistan alote of times

This on serious note, what were those Egyptians C130s were delivering form back to back visits in pakistan.. point to think ... what was the cargo if not Horus mirages

 

[denel]

This on serious note, what were those Egyptians C130s were delivering form back to back visits in pakistan.. point to think ... what was the cargo if not Horus mirages

Just check flightaware statuses - they could just be on the way to China too.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Just check flightaware statuses - they could just be on the way to China too.

May be, but do they have any defense equipment deliveries at that time from china to Egypt

 

[denel]

May be, but do they have any defense equipment deliveries at that time from china to Egypt

no idea friend. It could be anything from covid related supplies too.

 

[BATMAN]

No - there is no reason from French to say anything on this.

Lately, French are told by their own govt. to leave Pakistan... perhaps you were not aware!

 

[Tomcats]

This on serious note, what were those Egyptians C130s were delivering form back to back visits in pakistan.. point to think ... what was the cargo if not Horus mirages

If you're talking about 2020, then they were most likely COVID related supplies, Egypt was transporting a lot of COVID aid globally at that time.

 

[denel]

Lately, French are told by their own govt. to leave Pakistan... perhaps you were not aware!

I am aware; but it has no bearing on the M3/5.

 

[BATMAN]

I am aware; but it has no bearing on the M3/5.

That would be funny if it has no bearing.... specially considering Imran Khan has publicly and furiously demanded OIC states, to do more than boycott of commercial product coming from EU!

 

[denel]

That would be funny if it has no bearing.... specially considering Imran Khan has publicly and furiously demanded OIC states, to do more than boycott of commercial product coming from EU!

trust me, the french will sell anything no matter what.