The Muslim World | Medusa's Wreck!

[Hemlock Khalid]

I would love to see a united Muslim World, but when I see the reality that every Muslim country like Turkey, Saudia, UAE etc dont want unity but just to become a powerful entity, I guess Pakistan should also go for that first... and then someday we can think of a united Ummah, but not today

 

[gambit]

CD, saying Islamic world is a non sequitor because there is no 'Islamic world'.

Of course there is.

Europe + US = Christendom.

 

[T-Rex]

You are being patently unfair Aeronaut.
You blame the west for looking out for their interests and not the people in your countries for accepting tyranny and dictatorship.

You can blame the bribe giver, but not the bribe taker, when the bribe taker is the real one at fault. You are simply blaming the West for 'your' shortcomings.

In this case the 'bribe giver' is the real culprit because with one hand he offers bribe and with the other he points a gun. Naturally the cowards and feeble minded people accept the cash. Besides, it is not at all the case that the 'bribe givers' are blackmailing only Muslim rulers, we all know Hugo Chavez of Venezula, don't we?

 

[Contrarian]

In this case the 'bribe giver' is the real culprit because with one hand he offers bribe and with the other he points a gun. Naturally the cowards and feeble minded people accept the cash. Besides, it is not at all the case that the 'bribe givers' are blackmailing only Muslim rulers, we all know Hugo Chavez of Venezula, don't we?

They will try to get anyone they can to get under their influence.
Fact is that others dont get under their influence - Russia, China, India, Iran, Turkey. They dont allow them to create dictators.
Why is it that your country does? The fault lies with you, not them.

 

[scorpionx]

The answer of the riddle, whether the so called “Muslim World” can act as an unified state and look after their common as well as individual interests accordingly still remains elusive. The author of the article in the end have quite aptly pointed out the importance of political and economic independence with Military strength as a possible and reasonable solution but he did not mention how to get rid of such dependencies, in this case an essentially “western dependency”.

“Muslim World”, if it wants to act as an independent state in terms of common Geo-Political interest in spite of being scattered over half of the world, unfortunately have to look to west for its answers. The modern West fought innumerous regional battles on their own soil. Boundaries of nations changed in a cataclysmic manner for hundred years since the end of eighteenth century. Population moved from one point to another in an unprecedented manner. The West fought two bloodiest wars where the degree of mammoth loss of human and property was unthinkable to the foreseers of future.

But the West did not compromise at one point. In spite of having limited natural and human resources compared to the rest of the world, West did not compromised in keeping their own houses in order. Individual and social liberty, human rights of nations were carefully taken as a priority by its rulers. Tyrannies and useless monarchies were replaced with democratically elected legislative bodies. More over a modern classical political and economic liberalism, since French revolution swept all over Europe which evolved and perhaps still evolving for the last two hundred years.

Unfortunately, here the “Muslim World” failed in a monumental margin. In spite of having world’s largest and most precious natural resources they failed to keep their own houses clean first. Human rights have been grossly abused since ages. Tyrants have been replaced by other tyrants. Democratic secular and liberal bodies, over and over again got replaced by religiously inspired semi-democratic mechanisms. These developments led to social inequalities and unrest within the Muslim countries which are divided into varieties of sects and creeds within the common Muslim faith.

Huge natural resources and holding key strategic geographical locations have no value if a state remains confused to keep itself in order. Unless the mass politic of individual states get educated, social inequalities both religious and political get ridden off totally and radicalism in the elite aristocrats gets reinstated by modernist liberal thinkers, Muslim world will continue to act as a bunch of disintegrated and confused body of underdeveloped countries.

 

[T-Rex]

They will try to get anyone they can to get under their influence.
Fact is that others dont get under their influence - Russia, China, India, Iran, Turkey. They dont allow them to create dictators.
Why is it that your country does? The fault lies with you, not them.

Only a century ago Russia was literally exploited by the west and that's how the US purchased Alaska. Only half a century ago China and india were in the same shit. Turkey is still under them, though to a lesser extent. So, was it only the fault of the Russians, Chinese, indians and Turks that they allowed the villains to exploit and rob them? You're not fair, that's why you're only blaming the victims. You're well aware of the facts that with the help of guns and tanks ordinary Muslims are being prevented from exercising their right to choose their leaders. Democracy in the Muslim World cannot thrive for there are paid thugs like sisi to kill it, sometimes in the name of secularism, sometimes in the name of socialism,sometimes in the name of Islam and sometimes in the name of democracy itself.

 

[VCheng]

Looks like the Muslims need a lot of luck instead of Allah. But until either one kicks in, what WILL happens is that enough of the Muslims will blindly follow the few who will exploit the gullible and mislead the masses into believing that their problems are the results of <you-name-it-here>. We see that mentality on this forum enough.

Considering that this forum, and its management, represent a typical cross section of Pakistanis, things are really, really hopelessly bad.

You are being patently unfair Aeronaut.
You blame the west for looking out for their interests and not the people in your countries for accepting tyranny and dictatorship.

You can blame the bribe giver, but not the bribe taker, when the bribe taker is the real one at fault. You are simply blaming the West for 'your' shortcomings.

Because it is far easier to blame others than to rectify the real problems that lie within.

 

[bionic soldier]

The problems about Islam is her leaders. Other than Nasser and Ataturk, there is not a single Muslim leaders today, willing to emancipate the mind of their citizens.

Malaysia has good opportunities to be secular and progressive but she squandered her opportunities. Her leaders choose to unite people by hate, and religion bigotry, in order to conceal their corruption. Her leaders invented the Chinese voodoo and spew anti-Chinese sentiments.

Saudi is one more good examples. Instead of using their wealth to benefit the Arabs, she uses it to prop up USA. US dollar is not call petro-dollar for nothing. Due to Saudi, US fiat currency is accepted all over the world. Overtly Saudi and USA are allies. Covertly Saudi has her own ambition.

Saudi funded the Sunni insurgencies and madrassahs all over the world, spreading bigotry and hate. Such gangsterism will not harm the west an iota. Saudi's folly will only harm the Muslim world.

Pakistani elites sincerely want to modernize but Pakistan has too much centrifugal forces. She needs to Islamamize to prevent fragmentation. That is tragedy but not the fault of her leaders.

------------
Islam itself provides secularism. Holy Quran says, "Let there be no compulsion in religion".
There is monarchy in KSA which is just opposite to caliphate. Another giant problem is sects such as sunnism and shiasm. Even if Quran states, "Dont divide into sects, otherwise you would be weaken", Muslims divide into sects out of ignorance. As a result we have multi-polar muslim world where each sect consider other sectarian people as Infidel.
Quran says that ALLAH will let sectarian people taste the violence of each other as a punishment.
Naturally, sectarian people are extremist and hateful. They have nothing to do with ISLAM.

If Muslims start following Islam, all of the problems would get resolve itself.

 

[T-Rex]

Considering that this forum, and its management, represent a typical cross section of Pakistanis, things are really, really hopelessly bad.



Because it is far easier to blame others than to rectify the real problems that lie within.

As you're blaming others now, so why don't you show how to do it instead of blaming others?

 

[AUz]

I've been saying this for years. The Islamic world combined has more geopolitical and diplomatic power and influence than anyone else in the world, maybe apart from the sole superpower America. Not only do they control the vast majority of the world's energy resources, but they also have control over the most important geostrategic regions in the world (the Middle East and Central Asia).

It is such a shame that all this power goes wasted, due to disunity and infighting.

And it doesn't have to be that way. Look at China during our Century of Humiliation, or during our Warlord era... nobody back then believed that we had a chance to be anything except the "Sick man of Asia". Hundreds of millions of Chinese died during this period, not just to foreign invasion but also due to our own Civil wars.

But we are now in the information era, and thus the Muslim world has the tools and ability to avoid our fate. Like China, the Islamic world is a "sleeping giant", but I do not think it will take two centuries for them to wake up. It might only take a few decades, if the will is there.

And unlike China, the Islamic world already has the power. The power is already there, it is just waiting for someone to come along and realize it.

We need a lot of ground work, we need to get our citizens interests, most of all we need to know that we share a common destiny. Even if we do not integrate into a single country, greater cooperation, free border trade, visa free travel will be very good options and would lead to greater economic and cultural links. On the govt and military level, not much can be achieved until people of our nations are aware that our shared humiliation can only be defeated through sticking together.

Great posts.

Like to add to that...Since my background is in history. Lets look at it in historical perspective..


Islamic Superpowers remained global leaders for 1000+ years...

Out of 1400 years of its history, Islamic Civilization/Muslim powers from Islamic World remained global dominant civilizations/powers for 1000+ years...that is, 70%+ time of its entire existence! NO other civilization even comes close to this! In last 2000 years, West, the only competitor, remained dominant civilization for barely 600 years (1st to 3rd century AD, 1600's onwards)...this is merely 30% time of its existence in last 2000 years...

There have been thousands of cultures, civilizations, and religions...but only TWO of them can be called as 'global civilizations'...Islamic Civilization and Western one...

Muslims created first 'global' civilization of history (with respect to their era)...

Islamic Superpowers/Muslims remained global leaders of humanity from 7th to 18th century! Islamic Superpowers and Great powers like Early Islamic Caliphate, Ummayad Empire, Abbasid Empire, Ottoman Empire, Mughal Empire, Timurid Empire, Safavid Empire etc dominated much of known globe during this time era..just like British, Germans, French dominated much of globe after 18th century....

Muslims laid the foundations of global spread of science, culture, arts, technology for the first time in human history..Thats why Islam is often called as 'The First Global Civilization' of human history. (Google the words "First global civilization" and see what comes up ) Before that, civilizations remained regional. Muslims brought knowledge of Mathematics, Science, technology, culture, Arts from India..and passed it on to Europe. They brought gun power from China and innovated it in their weapons..Got Western works, translated them, and caused them to spread in Europe...Islamdom remained the center of known world for centuries..Islamic Civilization had massive physical and cultural presence on every single continent of the known world..a feat NO other civilization was able to achieve prior to rise of Islam...All of this activity and global expansion laid the foundations of global spread of arts, science, technology, culture, and innovation...West took it to new level after industrialization in 18th century...

Even by mid 18th century, Muslims were economic super powers of the world. Afsharid Persian Empire alone held 24% of global GDP..not to mention Ottomans and other Muslim lands...

By 18th century however, Western Europe...thanks to free resources from Americas..had turned the competition and had taken the lead. 19th and 20th centuries are the one's that really "struck" the Muslim World. When Muslims realized that they no longer are the superpowers of the planet. That another peoples...Europeans..had become more powerful than them.

From last couple of centuries, Islamic World is in shambles. Unstable. Still trying to find its feet..no where to be seen.

Even at our worst, Muslim World has a combined economy of near $15 trillion and can sustain itself...civil wars have destroyed us but as worse as say other great civilizations that went through such situations...

So Muslims still have some hope of making a come back.


As @Aeronaut stated...We need a lot of ground work, we need to get our citizens interests, most of all we need to know that we share a common destiny. Even if we do not integrate into a single country, greater cooperation, free border trade, visa free travel will be very good options and would lead to greater economic and cultural links. On the govt and military level, not much can be achieved until people of our nations are aware that our shared humiliation can only be defeated through sticking together.

 

[Dubious]

IMO there is no Muslim "world" when all that we see is them reliving others and themselves from it .

And there is no hope as the article prescribes, because it is a religion that is shocking aggressive and violent towards 'non believers'. This does NOT mean every Muslim is looking to behead you or prescribes to violence.

I attended a conference a few years ago where there was serious and honest debate on this subject.

the guy opens his speech claiming that Bush claimed Islam is a peaceful religion...I cant ever once find him saying that Should I continue such a far shot debate?

At the opening statements the lady goes...I am a Muslim...we were raised in middle class American family and went to mosque on Sunday!

And her mosque has a president....a Muslim who doesnt wear headscarf...men and women pray side by side...exactly where is she from ....and she emphasizes her parents are both very religious people!

She actually got the Jewish facts right (prayed almost every morning and learned Hebrew) over the Islamic ones (Going to Mosque on Sundays)....Sorry man...such debates might bring in claps but lying doesnt help coz no orthodox Muslim follows what she said about her practices!

 

[Dubious]

Instead of clarifying the violent verses were for a certain time only .....or clarifying their background she goes and says Quran has contradiction ...man this is funny!

 

[Contrarian]

Only a century ago Russia was literally exploited by the west and that's how the US purchased Alaska. Only half a century ago China and india were in the same shit. Turkey is still under them, though to a lesser extent. So, was it only the fault of the Russians, Chinese, indians and Turks that they allowed the villains to exploit and rob them? You're not fair, that's why you're only blaming the victims. You're well aware of the facts that with the help of guns and tanks ordinary Muslims are being prevented from exercising their right to choose their leaders. Democracy in the Muslim World cannot thrive for there are paid thugs like sisi to kill it, sometimes in the name of secularism, sometimes in the name of socialism,sometimes in the name of Islam and sometimes in the name of democracy itself.

First of all, use regular black colour that every one else uses for the entire text. Highlight only relevant parts of your post. Else we can all make a rainbow out of the forum if we all choose different colours.

Secondly, yes, India, China and a whole lot of other countries were in shit a decade back. So what changed? We did. We tried to change and compete. The west would have liked nothing better than for everyone else to remain in that shit. So I am not blaming the victim, I am saying there is barely any cause for victimhood.

You are blaming others for your incompetence and wrong priorities. If your nations resources(people) are devoted to 'pleasing allah' and killing to attain jannat you are not going to compete with others on the right things.

 

[Indos]

Nothing to be afraid with Muslim nations binding them self into NATO kind of group. This power will eradicate fool extremism like Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Taliban, and TTP within Islamic world thus bring stability into the world. It will also solve conflict in Syria and put more strength into Palestinian struggle. In the outside Muslim world, only Israel that can become the enemy of this block. Why does American and European people have resentment on the idea, not logic at all, since this force has much potency to bring peace to the world.

For instands, instead of giving weapon to rebel in Libya and Syria, the Muslim force can just topple Gaddafy and Bashar Regime with their own regular soldiers, thus solving the problem in a much better way. Israeli will think twice before shelling Gaza that result in civilians death, and it can also bring Israel to agree on Two State Solution brought by USA initiative.

I believe it can be a lethal forces....how can we figure out the feeling of excitement our soldiers will have when Indonesian soldiers fight side by side by Pakistani/Turkish/Saudi/etc to bring ISIS and Bashar down in Syria and Iraq.

 

[T-Rex]

First of all, use regular black colour that every one else uses for the entire text. Highlight only relevant parts of your post. Else we can all make a rainbow out of the forum if we all choose different colours.

Strange, you've achieved so much yet you could not develop respect for the choices others make regarding something as silly as colour of the font.

We did. We tried to change and compete.

You did shit, the west took pity in you so that they can use you against the rise of political Islam.

You are blaming others for your incompetence and wrong priorities.

Just as you blame Pakistan for your atrocities in Kashmir.