The Most powerful country in Islamic world

[KashifAsrar]

The Iraqi resistence has failed miserably, 3445 American dead for over 50,000 Insurgent dead. But thats not the real failure, the real failure is the 100,000 plus civillians they have killed with thier bombs and the billions in reconstruction that has been wasted. US builds a pipeline- insurgents blow it up, US builds a school-insugents kill the teachers, US fixes the power grid- insurgents wreck the transmission towers, US says repeatedly stop fightign so we can go home- insurgents pick up the level of violence, US says Mosgues are off limits- insurgents turn them into bases, US catches a tyrant and turns him over for justice- insurgents kidnap aid workers and behead them.

How exactly is this hurting America. Its wrecked a several thousand lives and cost billions, but compared to the damage they are doing to themselves its just a drop in the bucket. By now 4 years after the invasion, Iraq could have been rebuilt and remade as a prosperous country, and US troops could be home. Instead an already ruined country has been knocked to the level of African third world by its own ihabitants and forgien co-religionist. The Insurgents are not defeating America they are defeating thier own children who will have to live with the mess they've made.

When at the end of the day America goes home I will still have power, television, internet medical care, clean water, food, and hope and all the things the insurgents denied to Iraq with thier stupid jihad. I might have to pay a few more dollars in taxes to recoup the costs of the war but, oh well my country of 1/3 billion people will go on watching "So You Think You Can Dance" or "CSI." If anything America will be a bit more jaded about Islam, and far more ready to just bomb-n-go when we have problems with anyone who calls themselves a Muslim, and a lot less willing to take on even more public debt next time some earthquake or tidal wave or famine hits the Ummahh some where on Gods green earth. After all if you hate us and God/ Fate/ Mother Nature does us a favor and wipes 70,00 or 165,000 of you out in a single blow who are we to naysay that and rush to rescue.

But then again we might remain caring and generous, unlike the Islam practiced by those engaging in the insurgency and secterian violence in Iraq, "love thy neighbor and Love thine enemies" is a tenet of faith for most Americans.

Plus America knows unlike many on this and other sites that most Iraqies are not insurgents, that there are more police and national guard than insurgents (if not religious militia). They don't plant bombs, they get bombed by their fellow Muslims. When an Iraqi National Guardsmen gets wounded by his fellow Muslim and he needs a miracle and an angel to survive, it ussaly takes the form of an American medevac and trauma system. Did any of you ever wonder who provides the majority of the funding and supplies for Iraq's medical system? pays for food, and provides reconstruction jobs, buys school books and supplies, tried to get Saddam's war debt releived.... America so ya I guess we are the evil colonial power after all.

What is your rank in Petagon?
Just curious!
Kashif

 

[zraver]

just tell me Zraver; how much % of the Iraq is under the collation control?

Thats easy, 0% Iraq id a fully sovergien nations with acredited ambassadors and diplomatic erights. Since Iraq is now out form under UN sanctions no forgien pressence is mandated by law and coalition troops surve at the sufferance of the Iraqi goverment. As I pointed out earleir the US wants to leave, but the Iraqi goverment is begging us to stay it is not an occupation.

Legend,

its not an occupation, Iraq was restored to full sovergienty in less than a year afte rthe invasion and electiosn were held. In fact this is the first time in decades when the Iraqi people had a say in who governed them. The insurgency is not fighting an occupation, its blocking relief efforts. How exaclty is Iraq being occupied? Is indonesia being occupied? After it has forgien troops including those of the US on its soil the only differanc eis the nature of the disaster. In Iraq it was decades of war caused by a madman, in Indonesia it was a tsunami. One was unstoppable and one needed an army to be stopped. Going to war to bring a tyrant to justice is not occupation.

All the war has done is ruined Iraq further and kept US troops there ya thats real sucessful.

Ohh and BTW you can ruin a country and then rebuild it. Germany, Japan, France, Holland, and many others were rebuilt after US bombers flattened them, some where enemies, others had enemies occupying them. None of them are enemies today.

Kashif,

I don't need a rank at the Pentagon to state the truth.

 

[con]

I think the Pakistani Army is the pride of the Ummah, and I think most if not all Muslims will agree.

Pakistani has defended itself against an enemy several times bigger, it has supported arab nations during wars and taught their pilots. It's contracted to go abroad for UN, they're the most stable institution in the country. They get into action to protect the citizens from national disasters, internal and external threats.

The US cannot afford to take on Pakistan, they have India & Israel for that. So it would never be Pakistan vs US, it would be Pakistan vs USreal + Indian.

"He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian"
(Israel Air Force chief Ezer Weizmen writing about PAF chief Nur Khan in his autobiography, On Eagles' Wings).

What is Pakistan's problem with Israel? Why should Israel attack Pakistan?

 

[EagleEyes]

I will disagree with Averroes. Israel is nation that cannot be used. It is opposite. Israel will make U.S fight for itself. Just as you may see with Iran.

 

[zraver]

What is Pakistan's problem with Israel? Why should Israel attack Pakistan?

Thier Jewish and have dominion over 1 million Israeli arabs and over 3 million Palestinian Arabs, control Jerusalem etc. Thats all certain members in Islam will need as justification. Pakistan and Israel have come to blows in the past. IIRC Pakistani fighters showed the IAF what it's like to fight agaisnt another skilled western modeled airforce.

 

[Neo]

Hard reality is that Israel is there to stay and USA will see to it that nothing happens to her.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, we may have sided with the Arabs in the 1967 and 1973 wars, we haven't interfered with Israel directly eversince. Our conflict with her is an idiological one and now Pakistan has gone nuclear the chances of Israel attacking us have diminished.
There will be no war between the two countries.

 

[Interceptor]

If Pakistan goes against Israel you should now that China wont support that they are allies with Israel, so the only resolution is that Pakistan stays mutual and neutral you can see that Pakistani foreign policy is not to aggress, however, to maintain peace in the region, the Pakistanis are not loyal to the Arabs, However, the opposite the Arabs are loyal to Pakistan.

Pakistan should not plunge it self into the situation that Iran has brought it self into, this is not for the Pakistani national interest. This would sound weird but in the past Israel and Pakistan have had good cooperation’s between each other.

 

[Neo]

Pakistan won't need Chinese help since any potential conflict will involve KSA and possibly Egypt in case Israel becomes the agressor.

 

[Interceptor]

Pakistan won't need Chinese help since any potential conflict will involve KSA and possibly Egypt in case Israel becomes the agressor.

Well NEO I was commenting on the recent events in Middle East and how the Arabs don't really care what happens as long as they are safe.

Iraq war no arab country confronted the decisions, the Lebanon war no Arab country confronted against it. This just shows they wont do any thing, the Egyptians of this era and the era in of 67 and 73 are different the Egyptians have excepted Isreal and so has Jordan and so has KSA secretly the KSA has never spoken up or against Israel the major powers of Middle East are cowardly sitting back until some one leads them.

 

[Neo]

I'with you mate, don't get me wrong.

But Pakistan is the only nuclear armed muslim country and that nakes all the difference. Its in their interest that we continue to be a nuclear power.
Pakistan is no Lebanon.

 

[Interceptor]

I'with you mate, don't get me wrong.

But Pakistan is the only nuclear armed muslim country and that nakes all the difference. Its in their interest that we continue to be a nuclear power.
Pakistan is no Lebanon.

Well that maybe, however, Pakistan is tamed. if King Fiasal of KSA was alive then you would have seen two Nuke powers because he was the contributer of the Pakistani Nuke program.

The Arabs are divided into left, right and centre they have no unity with each other. Unless they become united there militry strength is weak and what is little Pakistan compared with Israel, a united Arab is a strong Middle east unless this does not happen Pakistan will always remain quiet.

The problem is that the Middle East should have not broken into pieces, there was once a strong Middle East when the Ottoman were in power now the Middle East is in pieces, and the Israelis have taken advantage from this deviding the middle east more, if one middle eastren country hates Israel the other says it is good policy.

Similar to Pakistan if Pakistan had East Pakistan to day the war in Kashmir was over, the reason I say this is because East Pakistan would have been a nuke power and India would have been surrounded by the East and the West, Pakistan would have had more powerful economey etc. Any ways these are my views.

 

[zraver]

Well that maybe, however, Pakistan is tamed.

And it has been tamed since 9-12-01 when the US told pakistan eithe rhelp us stomp out the bastsrd children created by the US and Pakistan or get turned into a bombed out wasteland. It's not nice assuredly rude and uncouth but thats what happens when allies and a creation of Pakistan attack the worlds most powerful superpower.

Personally I am glad Pakistan chose to side withthe US over the Taliban. Nuking your country to make sure you doidn't slip AQ nukes or interfere with our overfligths would have been such a waste of human life and culture. But in the dark days after 9-11 we would have done it.

The problem is that the Middle East should have not broken into pieces, there was once a strong Middle East when the Ottoman were in power now the Middle East is in pieces, and the Israelis have taken advantage from this deviding the middle east more, if one middle eastren country hates Israel the other says it is good policy.

The Ottomans were every bit the colonial power the British and French were. The Ottoman Empire had not been "strong" since the 1700's and was in slow but unavoidable decline.

But given the areas invasions both east and west can you really fault the British and French for setting up a middle east that would be forever divided. The variosu caliphates had given Europe 1000 years of war, destroyed its greatest empire and defaced its greatest religious site.Even now today the brand of Islam practiced by far to many Arabs is waging war on everyone not a muslim for no other reason than they are not Muslim. Pakistan doesn't have the best record towards its minorities but it is worlds better than Arab nations. Just in my life time the Arabs have gone to war with Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhist, Persians, Druze, Kurds, Lebanese, Hashemites, Spanish, Americans, English, Austrailia, Russia etc. Imagine the threat to the world if those tendancies were under a unified power? Nuclear war would be just around the corner

 

[Interceptor]

And it has been tamed since 9-12-01 when the US told pakistan eithe rhelp us stomp out the bastsrd children created by the US and Pakistan or get turned into a bombed out wasteland. It's not nice assuredly rude and uncouth but thats what happens when allies and a creation of Pakistan attack the worlds most powerful superpower.

Personally I am glad Pakistan chose to side withthe US over the Taliban. Nuking your country to make sure you doidn't slip AQ nukes or interfere with our overfligths would have been such a waste of human life and culture. But in the dark days after 9-11 we would have done it.

I dont know where you get this from. The US may have given a threat but it does not mean Pakistan falls to its mercy, to tell u who created these un fatherly bastards was the US themself in the 80s and they paid Billions to there cause.

Pakistan does not require nukes to handle with US it requires dialogues with KSA, and KSA will never allow US to attack Pakistan it will stop the export of Oil and the US would have had a very very angry Middle East to face, and if the US went through that phaze to attack Pakistan then the US would never have made to it Iraq and Afganistan.

The Ottomans were every bit the colonial power the British and French were. The Ottoman Empire had not been "strong" since the 1700's and was in slow but unavoidable decline.

But given the areas invasions both east and west can you really fault the British and French for setting up a middle east that would be forever divided. The variosu caliphates had given Europe 1000 years of war, destroyed its greatest empire and defaced its greatest religious site.Even now today the brand of Islam practiced by far to many Arabs is waging war on everyone not a muslim for no other reason than they are not Muslim. Pakistan doesn't have the best record towards its minorities but it is worlds better than Arab nations. Just in my life time the Arabs have gone to war with Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhist, Persians, Druze, Kurds, Lebanese, Hashemites, Spanish, Americans, English, Austrailia, Russia etc. Imagine the threat to the world if those tendancies were under a unified power? Nuclear war would be just around the corner

Colonial you dont know what your talking about. The Ottomans didn't have the slave trade, the Ottamans were very powerful it maybe that historians dont like to except that but they were very powerful. It was Laurance of Arabia who divided the rule he created the insurgency and the anti Ottoman army from British weapons the Ottomans could not fight a civil war which led to the widraw of the Ottomans.

What war that lasted for 1000 years? If you mean Pelestine then yes it is a disputed site of the world.

You do not know anything the Arabs fought with the whole world are u nuts, then why do these countries supply the Arabs with investments.

If you really want a debate on who is been fighting for the last century and this century, since world war 1 the US have been at war at one point or another, the US has a defence budget of world conquest I mean the the USSR at its peak in the 80s spent tens of billions on its defence and the US just for kicks spends $532 billion or more on there defence what country requires so much funding. No country in the world has this amount of funding on its defence.

Please you are chatting complete BS here!

 

[zraver]

I dont know where you get this from. The US may have given a threat but it does not mean Pakistan falls to its mercy

Really? Then how did USN planes and USAF planes out of Diego Garcia get to Afghanistan? Mussariff even said the choice he was given was war or alliance and KSA wasn't going to lift a finger to stop us. 19 of the Hijakcers were saudi's and they had thier own problems to deal with. Pakistan folded like a kicked dog, and it was both the honorable and right thing to do.

to tell u who created these un fatherly bastards was the US themself in the 80s and they paid Billions to there cause

That may be true as far as AQ goes, but the taliban is Pakistan's ISI child.

Colonial you dont know what your talking about. The Ottomans didn't have the slave trade,

Sigh, if your ignorant of history how can you understand current events? Slavery in the Ottoman empire did not offically die out until 1909 a mere 5 years beofre WW1 and less than 10 years befor ethe Empire fell. Unoffically slavery was never abandoned and former parts of the empire like KSA practice it today. More importantly it was Arab slavers who introduced the idea of African slavery to Europeans.

What war that lasted for 1000 years? If you mean Pelestine then yes it is a disputed site of the world.

From the Islamic explosion out of Arabia following the death of Mohammed there has not been 2 consecutive generations worth of peace between the West and Islam, thats over 1000 years of war.

You do not know anything the Arabs fought with the whole world are u nuts, then why do these countries supply the Arabs with investments.

do you really want a list of just the conflicts since 1946 that involved islam soemthign like 70% of all the wars fought have at thier base a religious aspect pitting islam vs some other faith. denying this huge amount of conflict means the root cause will never be adressed, same as always blaming the khafir's for starting it and ignoring Muslim complicity in their own behaviour.

[quoteIf you really want a debate on who is being fighting for the last century and this century, since world war 1 the US have been at war at one point or another, the US has a defence budget of world conquest I mean the the USSR at its peak in the 80s spent tens of billions on its defence and the US just for kicks spends $532 billion or more on there defence what country requires so much funding. No country in the world has this amount of funding on its defence.[/quote]

Pakistan ecomomy 423 billion, defense spending 4.3 billion 10%
KSA economy 374 billion, defense spending 18 billion 5%
Russia economy 1.72 trillion defense spendign 60 billion 3.4%
USA econ0omy 13.26 trillion defense spending 630 billion 5.1% we spend more overall beucase we can but we spend less percentage of our GDP than Pakistan and many other countries do. And our spending doesn't negatively hit our civillian sectors like Russia so who is over spending?

 

[kidwaibhai]

first of all let us not kid ourselves that we can take on the US. It has the most sophisticated weaponry in the world and we are just catching upto 1980's technology. We can take on India though and maybe Israel. But i agree with most of the members here that we should remain neutral when it comes to Israel. All we should do is keep a low profile and keep building our economy and stay out of the Arab Israeli conflict.
The most powerfull country in the muslim world is without a doudt turkey. In the future i think it will play a much bigger role in the muslim world compared to what its doing now. This will all happen when they get the boot from the EU. So as far as i am concerned kudoos to turkey