The Debt we owe the Army & PAF

[VCheng]

Sometimes i believe that you really don't think your posts through.....and just keep parroting a robotic algorithm.

Circular debt will be there whether there are new plants or not. Except that, even if circular debt was retired today and it didn't prop up, you would still need more plants.

It is a matter of tackling the more important causes first, which means tackling the debt issue first, as we plan for more plants. Planning for plants without dealing with the debt is just plain stupid.

 

[haviZsultan]

With India aggressive we cannot remain nonchalant. We must support our armed forces or we will be in oblivion. Sure they are not perfect, but hey who is perfect in this world?

But I do believe that in 1971 our performance was poor and so many soldiers should not have given up without a fight. I blame yahya Khan, Niazi and Tikka Khan for that. We made some massive errors back there and due to that the peoples trust in the army was shaken.

When yesterday people stood hand in hand with the army 1971 was the floodgate for the problems that we face today. Syed Jamaluddin (who wants to divide Karachi from Pakistan) and people like him were born as a result. We messed up really bad in 1971. Every Tom Dick and Harry thought that dividing Pakistan would be the solution to their problems. Indians got a reason to jeer at Pakistan because we lost half our population. Imagine how strong we would be if east Pakistan was with us.

What we need now is more autonomy for the provinces and equal rights for all. And lets not blame the army constantly. Lets not forget the civilian leadership was as much responsible for the events on 1971 as was the army.

 

[Donatello]

It is a matter of tackling the more important causes first, which means tackling the debt issue first, as we plan for more plants. Planning for plants without dealing with the debt is just plain stupid.

Debt issue can be resolved within one month, if government puts its head to it. Nothing to do with Army.
Once you realize that, you will realize that even though debt is not an issue, you still don't have power to meet the demand. And then reality will hit you, that a mid size 500MW coal/gas/oil fired plant takes 2-4 years to complete after feasibility has been already done, and all bureaucratic non-sense is dealt with.

Both have to go hand in hand. Yes, more plants with more circular debt doesn't help, but no circular debt and no plants, is also useless.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

But I do believe that in 1971 our performance was poor and so many soldiers should not have given up without a fight. I blame yahya Khan, Niazi and Tikka Khan for that. We made some massive errors back there and due to that the peoples trust in the army was shaken.

Incorrect. The Pakistan Army fought very gallantly on the Eastern Front. Field Marshall Manekshaw stated that openly and so did many others(top Indian Officers in the Army, Navy and the Air Force). The deployment was faulty and they were tied down by ridiculous orders to defending ALL of East Pakistan. The Indian Army would have taken much longer to mow them down. Instead the IA with Mukti Bahini surrounded and bypassed fortified positions.

Against the fast paced tactics, the stationary Pakistan Army stood no chance. But the individual Pak jawan fought honorably and bravely. Their 'counter-insurgency' was counter productive, but that is your concern. On the field they overall fought very well.

Check the interviews of Indian Army Officers on 71. Several Indian officers previously commanded battalions of companies in the FF regiments, their interactions are also valuable.

You can question their actions against the general population. But not the foot soldier's bravery on the field when facing the Indian soldier.

 

[VCheng]

Debt issue can be resolved within one month, if government puts its head to it. Nothing to do with Army.
Once you realize that, you will realize that even though debt is not an issue, you still don't have power to meet the demand. And then reality will hit you, that a mid size 500MW coal/gas/oil fired plant takes 2-4 years to complete after feasibility has been already done, and all bureaucratic non-sense is dealt with.

Both have to go hand in hand. Yes, more plants with more circular debt doesn't help, but no circular debt and no plants, is also useless.

We can talk about the power issues in another thread, but to keep my post relevant to your comment in this thread, does the military pay its power bills on time?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

...Now elected govt is so spineless that it is not sure when another general want to rule them all ..

At what point does this stop becoming an excuse for continued incompetence, corruption and inability to deliver on the part of the elected governments?

 

[Jf Thunder]

the army also owes its debt to the the bloody civilians for

> 4 martial laws
> bangladesh
> baluchistan situation
> jihadi element of our society
> sectarianism
> mqm
> Kalashnikov culture
> religious intolerance
> triabl area's unrest
> casuing democracy not to flourish
> war on terror spilling into Pakistan'
> for all the bomb blasts whose material came in Pakistan by crossing the borders under the watchful eyes of our army
> kargil deaths
> siachien

> so on so forth

PS:- i respect the jawans but not the decision makers of our proud army. before we move on the army must apologize to the nation

1) Fault of the politicians
2)Fault of Bhtto
3)Politicians couldnt control it
8)ask JI
10)Fault of the politicians
13)WHy did NS cry to Clinton? shouldnt have retreated

 

[FaujHistorian]

So can Pakistan survive a civil war in the 21st century?

No one can tell.

No one "COULD" tell about USA either.

 

[VCheng]

No one can tell.

No one "COULD" tell about USA either.

I think we are about to find out for Pakistan.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I think we are about to find out for Pakistan.

off course my dear

off course.

 

[PurpleButcher]

1) Fault of the politicians
2)Fault of Bhtto
3)Politicians couldnt control it
8)ask JI
10)Fault of the politicians
13)WHy did NS cry to Clinton? shouldnt have retreated

Refer to post 12 for detailed explanation.

1) Fault of politicians... india has had many scams in the congress govt. should there be a martial law there to? politicians are never perfect... democracy is slow but steady filtering process! please answer me if there had been no corrupt politicians ever in usa or britian... there were but with repeated elections they were filtered out. Going by your logic, when army lost the 71 war, should the soldiers been thrown to jails? and civilians appointed to drive tanks and fly jets?

2) Bangladesh... yes the tipping point was achieved by rigorous irrational efforts of bhutto. But what about the previous decade when bengals were not given rights equal to west pakistanis... what about the treatment meted out to their language? and what about the army operation in Bangladesh?

3) Baluchistan..... yes politicians couldnt control it.... mush was politician who killed bugti? who put a lock on the coffin of mr bugti to further humiliate the baloch sentiment!! yes mush was a politician (sarcasm). I wont say the politicians have not done their mistakes but that army has also committed mistakes... please acknowledge.

4)Religious intolerance..... JI...no no.... it was the era of army dictator ... the mard-e-momin mard-e-haq ... zia ul haq zia ul haq...era when we became a religiously intolerant society

5) Democracy not flourishing..... not a fault of politicians... one must understand that democracy always starts like this.... india used to change prime ministers several times a year in 60's... but with continued democracy their direction is right... the problem in Pakistan was the generals wanted to be in power.... they either exploited the circumstances... or created situations which would could be called unrest... and in greater NATIONAL INTEREST ... our uniformed angels came marching in for decades.... had the democracy been allowed to prosper we would have been in a much better place than India. we were doing better than India initially.

6) Kargil.... haha ...good one man.... first of all you answer me is it justified for a govt servant to wage a war without the direction of higher authorities? is it justified to cause the deaths of scores of jawans ? under whose authority did mush waged a war? Furthermore, if you do not know we were losing the war, clinton stunt was a face saving because of lack of air cover we were unsuccessful in the short sighted military stunt!!

Open to a healthy discussion... take care

 

[Jf Thunder]

1) Fault of politicians... india has had many scams in the congress govt. should there be a martial law there to? politicians are never perfect... democracy is slow but steady filtering process! please answer me if there had been no corrupt politicians ever in usa or britian... there were but with repeated elections they were filtered out. Going by your logic, when army lost the 71 war, should the soldiers been thrown to jails? and civilians appointed to drive tanks and fly jets?

1)because the Indian Govt does not try to interfere in the Army matters, our does occasionally.
2)They were given Bengali as a national language, and dude, BD would never have been BD if Bhutto hadnt recogonized it.
3)i dont like Mush, so we shouldn't blame the whole Army for one bad person.
4)errr i dont think so, Btw we use that Nara for our Bus driver :p
5)but our politicians would eat away our country if army doesnt intervene, i think
6)look he was wrong to start it, but NS was equally wrong to end it the way he did

 

[PurpleButcher]

1)because the Indian Govt does not try to interfere in the Army matters, our does occasionally.
2)They were given Bengali as a national language, and dude, BD would never have been BD if Bhutto hadnt recogonized it.
3)i dont like Mush, so we shouldn't blame the whole Army for one bad person.
4)errr i dont think so, Btw we use that Nara for our Bus driver :p
5)but our politicians would eat away our country if army doesnt intervene, i think
6)look he was wrong to start it, but NS was equally wrong to end it the way he did

1) A govt has every authority to interfere in every govt. matter, be it the military, what is the fuss? why army matters ar not subject to public office holders. why okara farms cant be discussed by civilians in power... why?
2) yes bhutto was the final nail in the coffin, but the coffin was made in the previous decade , and also by the army operation
3) mush was an army wala, he was a uniformed president. that is waht i have been saying all along, the top generals must be held accountable for their decisions! not the jawans but the generals yes they must be answer!!
4) it was the 80's my brother when mullah's got power. they did exist before, but they had no power, they had no funding they had just a loud speaker, zia radicalized the society. in this i must add bhutto as well for ahemadi stunt as well. but zia era of 80's was the polarizing decade, the society got polarized between sunni shia, jihadi organizations came in, blasphemy law, arab funding for jihads, wahabiism, lashkar e jhangvi....
5) and the army didnt eat away the country... did the powerful dictators build Kalabagh dam, did the hang the corrupt politicians? rather they brought NRO and politicians whom they could manipulate!
6) here lies a difference of opinion, i respect your viewpoint regarding NS, i think he was right... let us agree to disagree on this point. but atleast you have agreed that mush was wrong.

 

[MastanKhan]

My brother here lies the difference of opinion. i do not consider it a favor. Do you consider a govt. teacher going to his job a favour or a duty? Do you consider a janitor going to his job a favour? That is what they are paid for. Yes there job is tough, its risky and they deserve respect for laying down their lives but its no means a favour but a very respectable job.



Questioning them about their irrational decisions in not equivalent to putting them down. Rather it is a grave matter as to why some soldiers had to lay down their lives in the first place for the irrational decision of an army general . When the general takes a decision to fight a war in kargil without taking orders from his theoretical boss, who is responsible for the death of our brave and beloved jawans? enemy bullets or the general?

If only our army had been questioned after 65's operation in Kashmir and the guilty had been dealt with we wont't have seen many wars!!

this is my viewpoint and hope we can have a healthy discussion. I also wrote in post 2 of this thread that i respect my jawans but the decision makers must be answerable for their decisions especially when they take the decisions beyond their authority.

Hi,

The meeting should be in private with a 100 years top security no disclosure----.

Now---in you daily life----the things you are supposed to do daily----you want a pat on your back for doing something extraordinary. Everybody wants to be acknowledged for a job that they have done.

A child takes a step---and we encourage him / her----why----would it stop taking steps if we don't encourage----no---once the first step is taken---there is no stopping---but encouragement makes you do things better----.

Same thing holds true for the soldiers---even though they signed up----but still it is not an ordinary decision to lay down your life.

For that reason---we have medals for gallantry----we build monuments for those who laid down their lives---we bestow upon them the terms like 'martyr' 'shaheed' and the likes of it----but for what---to acknowledge the act of bravery and unselfish sacrifice of life----.

 

[MastanKhan]

With India aggressive we cannot remain nonchalant. We must support our armed forces or we will be in oblivion. Sure they are not perfect, but hey who is perfect in this world?

But I do believe that in 1971 our performance was poor and so many soldiers should not have given up without a fight. I blame yahya Khan, Niazi and Tikka Khan for that. We made some massive errors back there and due to that the peoples trust in the army was shaken.

When yesterday people stood hand in hand with the army 1971 was the floodgate for the problems that we face today. Syed Jamaluddin (who wants to divide Karachi from Pakistan) and people like him were born as a result. We messed up really bad in 1971. Every Tom Dick and Harry thought that dividing Pakistan would be the solution to their problems. Indians got a reason to jeer at Pakistan because we lost half our population. Imagine how strong we would be if east Pakistan was with us.

What we need now is more autonomy for the provinces and equal rights for all. And lets not blame the army constantly. Lets not forget the civilian leadership was as much responsible for the events on 1971 as was the army.

Hi,

You want your soldiers to die for a live cause---the cause for east Pakistan was dead----. It was an extremely courageous decision on the part of Gen Niazi to have stepped up to the plate and accepted his defeat----to face an eternal disgrace in the eyes of his thankless countrymen to save the lives of 100 thousand troops.

You cannot imagine the bravery of the man Gen Niazi to have stood there and decided to fall on his proverbial sword to save his soldiers.

Anybody could have decided for death do us part----but for real man to stand up and realize that these 100 thousand men also have families and there is no reason to pursue the fight anymore when the game has been lost.

It reminds me of a match of cricket that we were playing in my teen years. Our team batted first and got out for a meager score of maybe under 50 runs-----the other side scored those 50 runs without a loss of wicket and kept on batting----scored a 100 more and still would not let go---their argument was---their argument was for us to take all their wickets----.

They were physically stronger than us and we could not say anything---in the end and older guy intervened and they decided to take our equipment---balls bats gloves pads wickets----it happened around 45-48 years ago---cannot forget it.

This is what the mentality of Pakistanis is---hasn't changed---the game was over in east Pakistan---the innings was finished---there was nothing left---.

The brother wanted separation----they wanted to live separately in their own house----God bless them----.