The Cold Start Doctrine Watch.

[arp2041]

PAKISTAN HAS NUKES....NUKES....NUKES.....& MUCH MORE NUKES.

INDIA CAN'T DO ANYTHING BECAUSE PAKISTAN HAS NUKES......& NUKES AGAIN.

END OF STORY.

 

[Kompromat]

We should sign an agreement with the Chinese that in case of CSD implimentation,they will send 6-10 Chinese soldiers to set up a tent inside Indian territory.

On a serious note, Pakistan has the ability to obliterate Indian IGBs by other means,ie Thermobaric warheads.

 

[Kaniska]

Less chest thumping and more thoughtful comments, Pleez

@muse: Nice to see your post after sometime...

Quite honestly now days these kind of topics are quite repetative and predictable but still then I would always love to respond to one of my favorite poster....

1- Yes,you might be true to some extent. Inspite of effort to increase the bilateral relationship, India and Pakistan are not basically friends as we have to cross over the cutover/threashhold of relationship level to consider ourselves as even Not enemey to each other...

2- Mutual mistrust remains towards each other and on the top of that India is in such a situation where on one side a future glocal power China is in one side and Pakistan which is aided by China at the otherside...So think about India's perspective, Indian security establishment will have to make some kind of noise in the media in regular interval so reaffirm to the public protecting the security of our nation...But honestly, after recent episode of border crossing by China, I would say that all these kind of statement by security establishment and related people are simply a " Noise" rather than completely beleiving into a fact....Because offlate i really started having a doubt about trying to know what is the real potential of India and its security establishment.

3- Nuclear arsenal and its use in any minimum amount will make sure that destroying a significant amount of resource of India and also Pakistan....I really feel surprised when we compare the amount of destruction in a comparative sense.

4- In the future, if ever there will be a trust that needs to be established between us, it is very important that democratic institutions remain strong in Pakistan...Because once democracy prevails, as it is happening now, then people of your nation will start feeling to assert themselves..Even in the same way, as economics of India grown, people will be less interested to put our economic development at stake with a fight with any of our neighour....So it is already happening in India....And in another 20 year, you can see...that may be many people in South India and some from East may not know what is all the fuss about Kashmir issue....

5- And regarding to the topic Cold start, I would not comment much about it but being Indian, i sometimes feel that our leaders sometimes carriedaway by watching Bollywood movies and start giving comments.....So I always think that the Cold start that was mentioned by Indian Army head sometimes back, It was simply a non sense and immature statement....Rather I feel that if allegation of Pakistn GOV about RAW assiting TTP is true, I think that is a smart move from Indian spy group rather than declaring about Cold start against Pakistan...

My hope is that India and its security establishment clearly understand that Pakistan is a power...It is not Srilanka or Maldavies.....India will never be aggressive in attacking....Because India has nothing to gain from attacking India....And same veing, apart from occupying J&K, Pakistan has nothing to gain too....Why the hail someone will attack to each other to occupy a piece of land where huge poor and illiterate population reside from both sides...

 

[notorious_eagle]

Your question merits a detailed answer. So will save its reply for a later time..


The results are still the same but with more Indian casualties. Pakistan would be struck by Indian tactical nukes on its military formations.

The result will be that both the militaries would be destroyed but Pakistani soil would have been nuked multiple times by both India and Pakistan, while Indian soil would not have been attacked using nuclear weapons.

You are being optimistic here, way to optimistic. If you honestly think that India will come out unscathed in a nuclear showdown, than you are living in a utopian world. If India decides to up the ante by targeting Pakistan with a tactical nuclear strike inside Pakistani soil, Pakistan maintains the right to target Indian Strategic Command Centres inside Indian soil.

We should sign an agreement with the Chinese that in case of CSD implimentation,they will send 6-10 Chinese soldiers to set up a tent inside Indian territory.

On a serious note, Pakistan has the ability to obliterate Indian IGBs by other means,ie Thermobaric warheads.

Forget the warheads; what people are failing to take into account is that Indian Forces lack the sophistication, training and the capability to execute something on the lines of the CSD. Not to mention, their adversary who is highly trained and much more mobile has enough conventional deterrent and firepower to lay this CSD plan to waste.

The entire premise behind CSD is to mobilize faster than the PA and hold territory. Both very noble causes but simply not possible to execute against an adversary like the PA. PA is always going to be more mobile and the initiative rests with the PA when the IA decides to set camp. IA exhausted IBG's will need to fight flanking and encirclement battles constantly against the freshly reinforced PA Armour to keep her supply lines open and stay alive. Not to mention, PA artillery and A-100 units will be wrecking havoc on IA's positions with pinpoint accuracy.

 

[Windjammer]

Obviously it is.
Thats the entire point. The start of the nuclear conflict will be with a tactical nuke aimed at a strike formation already on Pakistani soil.
It is intended to mark that the threshold has been breached and Pakistan is in existential danger.

It is invariably over Pakistani soil.
The question is that India responds not with a strategic strike but with a tactical strike on the Pakistani formation that launched the Pakistani nuke.

Even if India withdraws at this stage - Pakistan has been bombed twice by nuclear weapons - and if it is in Pak Punjab then it is a critical blow against Pakistan.

One thing people conveniently ignore or perhaps seem ignorant to the fact is that albeit Pakistani missiles are referred to as nuclear weapons but they can also be equipped with conventional war-heads, an Indian thrust based on CSD doesn't necessary has to be countered with WMDs, few batteries of say NASR armed with the likes of cluster munitions can decimate formations of infantry armour.

 

[Chak Bamu]

All the talk of war is nonsense. All the talk of Cold start and use of nukes is nonsense. Neither of the two countries can destroy the other. The seeds of destruction lie within. The decisions were made long ago.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Cold start is actually where IA trolled PA,ia never made any major reorganization to its corps structure.Still same 3 strike corps and other pivot corps structure.There has been no formation of super duper IBG,lol.And look at all these members getting worked up.CS was mostly stunt.

 

[Bang Galore]

Cold start is actually where IA trolled PA,ia never made any major reorganization to its corps structure.Still same 3 strike corps and other pivot corps structure.There has been no formation of super duper IBG,lol.And look at all these members getting worked up.CS was mostly stunt.

As I keep saying, it is the best doctrine in the world. Whether it exists or not, it has driven Pakistanis into a tizzy. What more do you need from it?

One thing people conveniently ignore or perhaps seem ignorant to the fact is that albeit Pakistani missiles are referred to as nuclear weapons but they can also be equipped with conventional war-heads, an Indian thrust based on CSD doesn't necessary has to be countered with WMDs, few batteries of say NASR armed with the likes of cluster munitions can decimate formations of infantry armour.

That is a non-issue. Pakistan cannot be expected not to attempt a defence. Nuclear weapons are a completely different thing.

 

[Bang Galore]

You are being optimistic here, way to optimistic. If you honestly think that India will come out unscathed in a nuclear showdown, than you are living in a utopian world. If India decides to up the ante by targeting Pakistan with a tactical nuclear strike inside Pakistani soil, Pakistan maintains the right to target Indian Strategic Command Centres inside Indian soil.

Right to target? Yeah sure, but capacity after a debilitating first strike will be much reduced.

Forget the warheads; what people are failing to take into account is that Indian Forces lack the sophistication, training and the capability to execute something on the lines of the CSD. Not to mention, their adversary who is highly trained and much more mobile has enough conventional deterrent and firepower to lay this CSD plan to waste.

The entire premise behind CSD is to mobilize faster than the PA and hold territory. Both very noble causes but simply not possible to execute against an adversary like the PA. PA is always going to be more mobile and the initiative rests with the PA when the IA decides to set camp. IA exhausted IBG's will need to fight flanking and encirclement battles constantly against the freshly reinforced PA Armour to keep her supply lines open and stay alive. Not to mention, PA artillery and A-100 units will be wrecking havoc on IA's positions with pinpoint accuracy.

Yup after all, only Pakistanis have the brains & the equipment to fight a war, Indians will just run around aimlessly(like they have done previously) & won't know much about war fighting..........

 

[Bang Galore]

In an earlier post we asked :

Now if we review the responses of Indian interlocutors, we note that a large majority is persuaded that Cold start by any other name is a sane option -- that is to say, propelling a nuclear conflagration is a sane and reasonable action -- What does this say about them and the society that produced them and what does it say in how they view their adversary in Pakistan ?

A valid question but should we not start at the "provocation" that would cause "cold start" to be initiated. Surely "history" will not suddenly start with Indian forces deciding on a whim to attack Pakistan? After all what does it say about the society that deliberately sets out to provoke a nuclear conflagration by sending in terrorists to attack in another country? Also do you really believe that any country, including India, will always allow an adversary to set & decide the terms of engagement & the escalation levels?

 

[Icewolf]

So while India makes big military tanks, an strategic forces and organizes its Army to fight western front, all Pakistan has to do is make a light headed nuke which can pound Indian advancing army in 2 seconds...

Very good. While India spends billions, Pakistanis spends millions.
Lage raho India... We are watching you totally waste money that u could spend to better your poverty situation

 

[Contrarian]

Notorious please read up on the CSD. You are misinformed on the point and objectives of CSD.

 

[AUz]

Prove that we are belligerent.

Balochistan, E.Pakistan, funding terrorism in Pakistan etc.

Now, you'll just deny all of these and say "Oh oh what proof do you have" ...and these lines of yours show how belligerent indians are, when given chance.

Inside, you guys 'enjoy' the deaths of thousands of Pakistanis and feel 'good' that RAW/Indians have a part to play in this game of destruction going on in Pakistan. From outside, you guys tend to act innocent and demand 'proofs'---just to make this even more 'fun'.

The only bad part is : Pakistan knows exactly what kind of people indians are...hence, you aint gonna see any slowing down of military build-up by Pakistan

 

[VeeraBhadra]

So while India makes big military tanks, an strategic forces and organizes its Army to fight western front, all Pakistan has to do is make a light headed nuke which can pound Indian advancing army in 2 seconds...

Very good. While India spends billions, Pakistanis spends millions.
Lage raho India... We are watching you totally waste money that u could spend to better your poverty situation

In that scenario I would advice you to further cut down your army size to quarter ,since your strategic forces will take care of everything and spend the money so saved in building up your economy.

By the way now India is developing NBC complaitient thrust mechanised infantry.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

So while India makes big military tanks, an strategic forces and organizes its Army to fight western front, all Pakistan has to do is make a light headed nuke which can pound Indian advancing army in 2 seconds...

Very good. While India spends billions, Pakistanis spends millions.
Lage raho India... We are watching you totally waste money that u could spend to better your poverty situation

Pakistan is not our only adversary.Also by your logic PA should abolish conventional forces altogether.Everyone knows Cold start is stunt,any attack on terror camps would be aerial.IA will ensure no pakistani or chinese invasion can achieve anything.