The Cold Start Doctrine Watch.

[RazPaK]

What about the factor of Pakistani militas?

The general population is pretty well armed.

Holding a city would be hard for the Indians, no?

 

[MilSpec]

Interesting, but...

It's an example, to highlight what I have been saying all along, IBG composition is not evident, there is no available data on the composition of the IBG, Hence there cannot be any assertion of how many IBG's will be deployed, So evaluation of the ground offensive, which is the only aspect of CSD that pakistani members choose to discuss (because of PA strength)is useless.

What about the factor of Pakistani militas?

The general population is pretty well armed.

Holding a city would be hard for the Indians, no?

I highly doubt IA would want to hold any major cities.

 

[Xeric]

It's an example, to highlight what I have been saying all along, IBG composition is not evident, there is no available data on the composition of the IBG, Hence there cannot be any assertion of how many IBG's will be deployed, So evaluation of the ground offensive, which is the only aspect of CSD that pakistani members choose to discuss (because of PA strength)is useless.

As, Sir Kayani once said and i quote..we would react not to the indian intentions, but to their capabilities'

So, whereas you may intend to form an IBG around an armour regiment or around a part of it thereof, the fact remains that we as soldiers are supposed to know (basing to the capability of any standard armour unit, may it be a troops, squadron or a regiment) exactly how many dogs the enemy can unleash towards us. Moreover, the word 'Integrated' in IBG means something, no? So, let's not bank upon armour alone when you guys wants some 'integration' at the strategical levels.

I highly doubt IA would want to hold any major cities.

i concur.

 

[DARKY]

Holding a city would be hard for the Indians, no?

Unless militias and general population hold weapons such as Javelin ATGM, RPG29/32, .50 cal Machine gun etc.. they won't do any significant damage.. It would be more like a Genocide for AK-47s, Type-56, RPG-7s armed militias/Population... against Indian IGBs.

Besides holding any city is a strict no for cold start.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

No, what you posted was the IA structure from Wiki, not the actual deployment doctrine


That is based on the structure and compositions of IBG's, I read your previous post where you claimed India cannot deploy 8 IBG's, and 24 is farfetched. Does anyone know the IBG structure on the deployment level, there are atleast 63 armored regiments in IA, if even half of them are deployed you have 31.5 structures to contend, depending on the structure, if these armored regiments are cut into half on deployment levels, you have more than 60 IBG's to contend with, if initial assault is conducted by half of these and the next wave is in support role, you are contending with almost 30+ points of engagement on the LC.

A US armored regiment have typically 26 tanks. Its not that you have 63 or 163 Armored regiments on paper. The main thing is that what type of tanks these regiments are composed off? How many of them are full strength, half strength or under strength. If you are planning an IGB around Vijayanta tanks or T-72s which are nite blind then nothing better for Pakistani troops firing ATGMs from their fox-holes.

That is classified data, It is useless to bring into a discussion a rhetoric that is built on data that is not available. It's equivalent to asking what are the locations of anti-armour brigades of PA along the LC.

Hmmm classified. Dear, ISI which entire India blame for everything is not so impotent that it will not keep an eye on an Armored Division deployment of Indian Army. Special area of interest will be those Queen Armored divisions which will be equipped with T-90s.

2001 was 12 year ago, If you choose to believe that Indian deployment rate is the same as it was in 2001, then it will be a big mistake.

Hahahaha 12 years ago it took 2 months to deploy. Now even if you have reduced it to 1 months its a miracle. Still short of implementing CSD.

Please tell us the similarities you draw from "soviet doctrine", CSD is actually very similar to US invasion of Iraq, Heavy Air Interdiction, and SEAD, followed by Ground offensive under the umbrella of active CAS.

No sir there is and never can be similarity of Pak-India and US-Iraq scenarios. You simply cant match that air power w.r.t Pakistan. And it took 100 days of day/nite strikes powered by Saudi oil before US crossed into Kuwait. Can you sustained a 100 days air campaign against Pakistan?

And about Soviet motorized units kindly search google for yourself. Thx

 

[Armstrong]

As, Sir Kayani once said and i quote..we would react not to the indian intentions, but to their capabilities'

I recently met a Colonel from the Army Medical Corp a while back & he was of the opinion that there is great resentment in the Army because of Kayani's extensions & because of the alleged corruption charges surrounding his brother (the talk is that he may be tainted with corruption as well).

Is there truth in this that there really is resentment against Kayani in the Army ?

So, whereas you may intend to form an IBG around an armour regiment or around a part of it thereof, the fact remains that we as soldiers are supposed to know (basing to the capability of any standard armour unit, may it be a troops, squadron or a regiment) exactly how many dogs the enemy can unleash towards us. Moreover, the word 'Integrated' in IBG means something, no? So, let's not bank upon armour alone when you guys wants some 'integration' at the strategical levels.

So does that mean that we're capable of stifling the CSD even in a purely conventional (non tactical nuke) sense or would we be banking on so many things going our way if in any future war India does employ CSD ?

Thank You, much obliged !

 

[Kompromat]

@DARKY

Investing in military drives up the economy not downwards.

 

[Kompromat]

Unless militias and general population hold weapons such as Javelin ATGM, RPG29/32, .50 cal Machine gun etc.. they won't do any significant damage.. It would be more like a Genocide for AK-47s, Type-56, RPG-7s armed militias/Population... against Indian IGBs.

Besides holding any city is a strict no for cold start.

I don't know if im talking to a high schooler here. Read the Battle of Stalingrad,Viet War and Afghan Jihad, then compare it to the battle of Kursk to see the bigger picture.

I seriously doubt if you have ever fired an actual gun in your lifetime,yet you claim to know everything.

In urban warfare Bharati IBGs will be outnumbered by 10 folds, there are 72 fire arms owened by Pakistani civilians/every Indian soldier.

You talk of genocide as if its childs play, get a life.

 

[Kompromat]

@Icarus @Argus Panoptes

I see,what you have wrote about no further investment in the proxy market. I do see,what you have said about looking 'inwards'.

However, how can we successfuly defeat internal threats without destroying their support from our friends in the east?

If we can't then how can we remain unengaged beyond our borders and defeat the internal threats at the same time?

 

[DARKY]

I don't know if im talking to a high schooler here. Read the Battle of Stalingrad,Viet War and Afghan Jihad, then compare it to the battle of Kursk to see the bigger picture.

I seriously doubt if you have ever fired an actual gun in your lifetime,yet you claim to know everything.

In urban warfare Bharati IBGs will be outnumbered by 10 folds, there are 72 fire arms owened by Pakistani civilians/every Indian soldier.

You talk of genocide as if its childs play, get a life.

Welcome to 2013.

I don't want to give any detail account but the place I live even a 12 year old can assemble a pistol... and My family most of them are stake holders in an Arm Manufacturing company... Its a Joint venture.

You want to see fire arms.. I would welcome you to my place... and Khusboo laganay ki zarurat nahi h..

We'll see about that Urban warfare you are talking about when that happens... I believe Chechans were more equipped and better trained against the Russian than you are against our IGBs.

When an IGB enters some hostile city.. Genocide is written all over It... believe me no mercy even the police here doesn't show much against agitated crowd where I live... although they too have got the taste of their own medicine at times.

 

[Storm Force]

No matter How you PAKISTANIS dress this THREAD UP the END CONCLUSION IS the same...

Indian DOMINATES by a factor of 10 -1 ECONOMICALLY over Pakistan.

5 - 1 IN CURRENT DEFENSE budget (we spend only 2% YOU guys 4% OF YOUR GDP)

Conventionally the GAP will continue TO WIDEN the rest of this decade
More/Better tanks
More/better attack helos
More/better Multi role strike fighters
Bigger more powerful navy

THE ONE MESSAGE ABOUT CSD IT IS EVOLVING its not static and the templates are being improved and enlarged

Rafale fighters, apache helos, more special forces, C17 & C130 and smrch MBRL or mobile arlillary is all prt of CSD

india has the OPTIONS to keep spending on CSD doctrine

FOR PAKISTAN I ask the question

AT WHICH POINT DO YOU GUYS press a TACTICAL NUKE WEAPON

WE THOUGH NUKES ARE A LAST RESORT

But you guys WANT TO USE nukes earlier

AND AGAINST A NEIGHBOUR WITH A COMPLETE TRIAD ie sub launched nukes & ICMB

suicidal mentality

 

[DARKY]

@DARKY

Investing in military drives up the economy not downwards.

In your country Its the opposite isn't it ?

 

[Kompromat]

@DARKY

Educate yourself before you write. Go study the National Socialist industrialization of Germany first.

 

[DARKY]

I don't know how will Pakistan cope up with the Naval blockade... Cold start is Just the tip of the ice berg.

@DARKY

Educate yourself before you write. Go study the National Socialist industrialization of Germany first.

Are you comparing the Pakistanis of Today with the Germans of that time...

And telling me of education... get some life.

 

[Xeric]

@Aeronaut Why wasting your time on kids?

i thought it would be guud to have an educated discussion on the indian doctrine after some time, but then jingoistics always gets the better of both Pakistanis and Indians.

Anywaz, the last thing i would like to say here is, if you guys knew what i know, you'll forget about CSD and make most of your lives.

Moreover, half of the Rommels, Eisenhowers and Guderains discussing CSD and tac nukes here arent even aware of the basics of CSD.

They dont know that CSD is out and a newer strategy is already in place by the indians.

i thought you guys would already have gotten over with CSD, o jao yaar, sakoon karo or hamain b karnay do.

May you guys be issued with more Shyam Sarans, Ameen. Ache rozi lagai hoi hai sub ki.

i wonder how did you guys missed Musey's writing on the wall: 'Son of Cold Start'?